New Sorc shield scaling

Ephemeraldeception

I was doing some tests earlier and results were not what I expected from the tooltip. Eg. Hardened Ward:
".....This ability scales off the higher of your Max Health or Magicka and is capped at 72% of your Max."

It states higher of Health OR Magica. So I had though that using a food buff or adding points into health to put Health above what magica was prior would mean that the Shirelds strength would be 72% of the health max but at least higher than it was before. So, I upped the Health total. Eg If I had a 28K Magica initially and 25K health. Then boosted health to 30K health at expense of 1K magica, I would expect to get a stroner shield than before and over 15K shield and its irrespective of Magica. However this instead resulted in a Shield that was less strong than before.

After some quick testing the biggest shield I could get was boosting both health AND Magica but the calculation still seems a bit weird. Anyone can explain in detail?

P.S. result is in any case very strong. I went solo into the Hollows dungeon on normal (ok not very difficult). However the test I made was - can mobs and bosses be done just letting pets do the work and spamming shield every six seconds, not even light or heavy attacking - Lol. really is a one button weave.

jaws343

Not sure if the Health and Mag scaling are equal. But shields are scaled at like 30% of mag as far as I know. The health cap is the max that could possible be.

So, at 30K mag, your shield would be 10K. Say you have 10K health for whatever reason. Well, you health cap would be 72% of that, or 7200. So, while you shield is 10K scaled with mag, it lowers to 7200 due to the health cap.

Same would go for health too. While say 40K health would give you a 12K shield, the health cap would be well over that, but due to the initial scaling, you would never reach the health cap with max health scaling shields, since the cap is larger than the scaling size.

Jamie_Aubrey

I had about the same as I always had in PVP, around 5k shield, then again I didn't pay attention to what I had before the change or maybe they never changed it for PVP cause you know PVP

Ephemeraldeception

Thx Guys for the feedback. @Jaws in your example 30% of 40K health = 12K works out if the scaling is around 30% for either resource except, I found that boosting the health above the magica reduced the shield strength instead of increasing it. This can be reproduced so there must be another factor.

So if Magica is the baseline not sure how the added health scales in, but it seems to.

As for PVP, this was my main interest in playing with health to see if I could adapt my sorc for PVP then assuming 50% in PVP but health based shield doesnt seem to work out which is counter intuitive. Or there is something I am not taking into account.

jaws343

Ephemeraldeception wrote: »

Thx Guys for the feedback. @Jaws in your example 30% of 40K health = 12K works out if the scaling is around 30% for either resource except, I found that boosting the health above the magica reduced the shield strength instead of increasing it. This can be reproduced so there must be another factor.

So if Magica is the baseline not sure how the added health scales in, but it seems to.

As for PVP, this was my main interest in playing with health to see if I could adapt my sorc for PVP then assuming 50% in PVP but health based shield doesnt seem to work out which is counter intuitive. Or there is something I am not taking into account.

That probably means the health scaling is less than the mag scaling then.

hrothbern

From: https://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php?

<<1>> = 0.443157 SD + 0.443157 Health (Health or Spell Damage, ratio = 1.00, DmgShield, SingleTarget, Direct, 6s duration, R2 = 1)
<<2>> = 6 seconds (Constant)

It should scale from Spell Damage + Health

Ephemeraldeception

hrothbern - Thx a lot that seems to explain it. However the tooltip is therefore misleading but does explain why stam sorc now sees a benefit.

hrothbern

Ephemeraldeception wrote: »

hrothbern - Thx a lot that seems to explain it. However the tooltip is therefore misleading but does explain why stam sorc now sees a benefit.

Whereby noted from my side that after testing just now: when I increase Spell Damage with the 20% buff I see no diff in the tooltip Damage Shield value.

jecks33

Pretty disappointed to see a 20k shield with 47k hp (more or less 45% of my hp, far from 72%) on my tank.

This morph (Hardened Ward) is also useless for the group, it costs more, less duration.

Defensive stance is still better, 15k shield, damage I can block increased by 10%, 10% block cost reduction.

What's the point of this change? A lot of hype for nothing, as usual....

Beilin_Balreis_Colcan

Personally, I'd just like to see these wards last a bit longer, because repeatedly spamming them during fights with the tougher bosses is a nuisance.

jaws343

jecks33 wrote: »

Pretty disappointed to see a 20k shield with 47k hp (more or less 45% of my hp, far from 72%) on my tank.

This morph (Hardened Ward) is also useless for the group, it costs more, less duration.

Defensive stance is still better, 15k shield, damage I can block increased by 10%, 10% block cost reduction.

What's the point of this change? A lot of hype for nothing, as usual....

72% is the health cap. Not scaling. It has always been that the health cap is the tooltip %. You will never, using the health scaling portion of the skill, hit the 72% cap because that cap will always be higher than the actual scaling value of the shield.

The only time that 72% cap will be used is with mag scaling.

WrathOfInnos

hrothbern wrote: »

From: https://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php?

<<1>> = 0.443157 SD + 0.443157 Health (Health or Spell Damage, ratio = 1.00, DmgShield, SingleTarget, Direct, 6s duration, R2 = 1)
<<2>> = 6 seconds (Constant)

It should scale from Spell Damage + Health

That looks like a bug. The patch notes specifically say that it scales with health or magicka now, no mention of spell damage.

It does not make sense for it to scale with spell damage, especially at the same coefficient as health. Most Sorc builds have 20-30k health and only 6-8k Spell Damage. 0.44 x 7k Spell Damage is a 3k shield. I'm not even sure it's possible to make your SD exceed max health.

This sounds like a typo where someone intended max magicka scaling but instead made it spell damage. @ZOS_Kevin is the Ward scaling working as intended?

hrothbern

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

From: https://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php?

<<1>> = 0.443157 SD + 0.443157 Health (Health or Spell Damage, ratio = 1.00, DmgShield, SingleTarget, Direct, 6s duration, R2 = 1)
<<2>> = 6 seconds (Constant)

It should scale from Spell Damage + Health

That looks like a bug. The patch notes specifically say that it scales with health or magicka now, no mention of spell damage.

It does not make sense for it to scale with spell damage, especially at the same coefficient as health. Most Sorc builds have 20-30k health and only 6-8k Spell Damage. 0.44 x 7k Spell Damage is a 3k shield. I'm not even sure it's possible to make your SD exceed max health.

This sounds like a typo where someone intended max magicka scaling but instead made it spell damage. @ZOS_Kevin is the Ward scaling working as intended?

Yes, my test. mentioned in my follow up post, clearly shows no effect of SD.

Question:
I am (or at least was until now) under the impression that UESP loads its data directly from the ESO database which would eliminate the human factor of typos.

Is there here someone on this forum who knows intimately how that loading of that big UESP table is done ?

virtus753

jecks33 wrote: »

Pretty disappointed to see a 20k shield with 47k hp (more or less 45% of my hp, far from 72%) on my tank.

This morph (Hardened Ward) is also useless for the group, it costs more, less duration.

Defensive stance is still better, 15k shield, damage I can block increased by 10%, 10% block cost reduction.

What's the point of this change? A lot of hype for nothing, as usual....

Defensive stance also requires you to have a sword and board equipped. That’s not directly comparable to a skill that can be fully utilized by any sorc on any role. Someone with sword and board should have access to more mitigation, since they have chosen a more defensive setup for that bar. Shields designed to be usable by offensive builds are significantly weaker.

JJMaxx1980

I feel like people aren’t reading the tooltip properly.

This is what it says:

Conjure globes of Daedric energy for protection, granting a damage shield for you and your pets that absorbs 7323 damage for 6 seconds. This ability scales off the higher of your Max Health or Magicka and is capped at 72% of your Max Health.

There are two separate statements separated by the word ‘and’. It doesn’t say that the shield is 72% of your max health. It says it ‘scales’ with your max health, whatever that equation is, and that the maximum of that equation is 72% of your max health.

Dr_Con

I just want to throw out there that no matter what they do to damage shield scaling, they will never be as oppressive as they used to be. Damage Shields don't mitigate damage when you are blocking, unless a specific CP is slotted and even then it only mitigates by like 20%. Damage shields really only shine when absorbing DOT damage, beyond that they are lackluster.

virtus753

Dr_Con wrote: »

I just want to throw out there that no matter what they do to damage shield scaling, they will never be as oppressive as they used to be. Damage Shields don't mitigate damage when you are blocking, unless a specific CP is slotted and even then it only mitigates by like 20%. Damage shields really only shine when absorbing DOT damage, beyond that they are lackluster.

Damage shields respect armor mitigation. Other than that, Ward Master provides 10% mitigation to the shields when blocking.

Dr_Con

virtus753 wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

I just want to throw out there that no matter what they do to damage shield scaling, they will never be as oppressive as they used to be. Damage Shields don't mitigate damage when you are blocking, unless a specific CP is slotted and even then it only mitigates by like 20%. Damage shields really only shine when absorbing DOT damage, beyond that they are lackluster.

Damage shields respect armor mitigation. Other than that, Ward Master provides 10% mitigation to the shields when blocking.

Damage shields do not respect block mitigation. Draw attention to armor mitigation all you want, but blocking with a damage shield up, even with the ward master CP, only accomplishes draining ones own resources.

AdamLAD

After recently playing DK. I'm sorry but Wards needs SIGNIFICANT buff. Blocking, high health and high healing is like 10x better than wards. It pales in comparison.

OBJnoob

So I'm on console and was going to try a stamsorc high health shield build. I've got a pretty simple question but can't test it myself so wanted to ask...

If I'm using Max Health to scale with instead of magicka and the cap is 72% of max health... Then is it as simple as "the shield will be 72% of my health?" I feel like it's not... But shouldn't it be?

What point is there to scaling with max health if you can never hit the cap?

Dr_Con

OBJnoob wrote: »

So I'm on console and was going to try a stamsorc high health shield build. I've got a pretty simple question but can't test it myself so wanted to ask...

If I'm using Max Health to scale with instead of magicka and the cap is 72% of max health... Then is it as simple as "the shield will be 72% of my health?" I feel like it's not... But shouldn't it be?

What point is there to scaling with max health if you can never hit the cap?

I think the intention is to limit the power on low hp magicka builds, as it scales off max magicka or max hp. A high HP build, stamina or otherwise, probably will never reach the cap, but someone's 16k hp glass cannon build with 35k magicka might.

OBJnoob

Well. Having a shield be 72% of your health would be too big... So I'm fine that it isn't so, but I'm still left not knowing what to expect. Has anyone figured out the scaling from a Max HP approach?

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom

OBJnoob wrote: »

Has anyone figured out the scaling from a Max HP approach?

0.2215785 Max Health in PvP

40000 health = 8863 shield

You also get +15% shield from Red CP

40000 health = 8863 * 1.15 = 10192 shield in Cyrodiil/IC

It's actually quite useful on a Stam Sorc as long as you're not spamming it.

OBJnoob

Okay Skara thanks.

jaws343

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well. Having a shield be 72% of your health would be too big... So I'm fine that it isn't so, but I'm still left not knowing what to expect. Has anyone figured out the scaling from a Max HP approach?

That 72% is a CAP. Not a scaling amount.

Really that cap can only ever apply to Mag scaling shields. Since the shield scaling amount for health is lower than the 72% cap, that cap will never be hit with a high health build.

WrathOfInnos

jaws343 wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well. Having a shield be 72% of your health would be too big... So I'm fine that it isn't so, but I'm still left not knowing what to expect. Has anyone figured out the scaling from a Max HP approach?

That 72% is a CAP. Not a scaling amount.

Really that cap can only ever apply to Mag scaling shields. Since the shield scaling amount for health is lower than the 72% cap, that cap will never be hit with a high health build.

Also trying to figure this out. I did a little testing with attributes and shields do still have some scaling with magicka.

It seems like the intent is for hardened ward to be minimum 44.3% of health and maximum 72% of health. Where it falls within that range is still based on max magicka. If mag is less than health or equal then you'll get that 44.3%. Once magicka exceeds health then the shield value will begin calculating 44.3% of max magicka instead of health. This is limited once max magicka reaches 1.625X max health, since at that point the shield reaches the cap (1.625x0.443=0.72).

That's all in theory though, in practice there are some strange variations occurring that I can't explain. Needs more testing.

AdamLAD

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well. Having a shield be 72% of your health would be too big... So I'm fine that it isn't so, but I'm still left not knowing what to expect. Has anyone figured out the scaling from a Max HP approach?

That 72% is a CAP. Not a scaling amount.

Really that cap can only ever apply to Mag scaling shields. Since the shield scaling amount for health is lower than the 72% cap, that cap will never be hit with a high health build.

Also trying to figure this out. I did a little testing with attributes and shields do still have some scaling with magicka.

It seems like the intent is for hardened ward to be minimum 44.3% of health and maximum 72% of health. Where it falls within that range is still based on max magicka. If mag is less than health or equal then you'll get that 44.3%. Once magicka exceeds health then the shield value will begin calculating 44.3% of max magicka instead of health. This is limited once max magicka reaches 1.625X max health, since at that point the shield reaches the cap (1.625x0.443=0.72).

That's all in theory though, in practice there are some strange variations occurring that I can't explain. Needs more testing.

So let's say for example, I have 20k maximum magicka. But 25k HP. It will obviously scale from HP, however it will be 44.3% of the 25k HP ? Is this in PvP ?

Hamish999

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well. Having a shield be 72% of your health would be too big... So I'm fine that it isn't so, but I'm still left not knowing what to expect. Has anyone figured out the scaling from a Max HP approach?

That 72% is a CAP. Not a scaling amount.

Really that cap can only ever apply to Mag scaling shields. Since the shield scaling amount for health is lower than the 72% cap, that cap will never be hit with a high health build.

Also trying to figure this out. I did a little testing with attributes and shields do still have some scaling with magicka.

It seems like the intent is for hardened ward to be minimum 44.3% of health and maximum 72% of health. Where it falls within that range is still based on max magicka. If mag is less than health or equal then you'll get that 44.3%. Once magicka exceeds health then the shield value will begin calculating 44.3% of max magicka instead of health. This is limited once max magicka reaches 1.625X max health, since at that point the shield reaches the cap (1.625x0.443=0.72).

That's all in theory though, in practice there are some strange variations occurring that I can't explain. Needs more testing.

This seems to be pretty much spot on. I used my magsorc PvP/BG toon to test it out.

With Witchmother's Potent Brew she has 26,978 health, 37,240 magicka and by the formula could have a max shield of 19.42k. Her actual shield is 19.4k.

With Bewitched Sugar Skulls she has 28,748 health, 38,718 magicka and by the formula could have a max shield of 20.69k. Her actual shield is 20.4k.

In both cases Bastion made no difference and frees up a CP slot for me to use

Edit: This was without Battle Spirit.

WrathOfInnos

AdamLAD wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well. Having a shield be 72% of your health would be too big... So I'm fine that it isn't so, but I'm still left not knowing what to expect. Has anyone figured out the scaling from a Max HP approach?

That 72% is a CAP. Not a scaling amount.

Really that cap can only ever apply to Mag scaling shields. Since the shield scaling amount for health is lower than the 72% cap, that cap will never be hit with a high health build.

Also trying to figure this out. I did a little testing with attributes and shields do still have some scaling with magicka.

It seems like the intent is for hardened ward to be minimum 44.3% of health and maximum 72% of health. Where it falls within that range is still based on max magicka. If mag is less than health or equal then you'll get that 44.3%. Once magicka exceeds health then the shield value will begin calculating 44.3% of max magicka instead of health. This is limited once max magicka reaches 1.625X max health, since at that point the shield reaches the cap (1.625x0.443=0.72).

That's all in theory though, in practice there are some strange variations occurring that I can't explain. Needs more testing.

So let's say for example, I have 20k maximum magicka. But 25k HP. It will obviously scale from HP, however it will be 44.3% of the 25k HP ? Is this in PvP ?

I haven't checked with battle spirit, but in theory it would be halved.
25k x 0.443 / 2 = 5537 shield.

Does that check out in game? Assuming no Bastion CP.