Coral Riptide not working in No-Proc

The_Titan_Tim

Just noticed a bug with the High Isle set Coral Riptide on Xbox NA. I originally posted this on the PTS thread but decided that due to it being a “Live” bug, I would make a discussion about it here.

Coral Riptide is not working in No-Proc, it’s using the exact same dynamic scale that Pariah does where instead of missing Health, it utilizes missing Stamina.

Pariah works in No-Proc…
Coral Riptide should too.

Can you take a look at this?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin

OBJnoob

I would argue that actually Pariah should NOT work.

The_Titan_Tim

OBJnoob wrote: »

I would argue that actually Pariah should NOT work.

It’s not a proc, it’s a conditional dynamic slider.
There’s no action causing an effect, just a check.

The_Titan_Tim

I worked hard to acquire this set in its perfected version to compensate for the 3-piece Slayer and it doesn’t even work.

OBJnoob

But there is an action causing an effect... That's what the check is checking for?

I won't debate what proc means with you. I'm aware that I'm probably wrong. I will tell you what I would approve of though, because I'm certainly not wrong about that.

A proc set should be anything that requires a check... Basically anything worded similarly to "If _____, then _____."

The only things that should be allowed in a non-proc environment are constant unconditional bonuses.

Whatever the "technical truth" may be, I do believe what I described to be the intent of the change. If anything I think things like Pariah are the very most egregious procs because their values are so conditional dynamic and slidey it just procs rechecks reprocs rechecks and reprocs constantly.

I'm sorry you went through a lot of work to acquire a set that doesn't work... But you aren't the first. There's no rhyme, reason, or list to their decision and that is a source of frustration for many of us.

The_Titan_Tim

OBJnoob wrote: »

But there is an action causing an effect... That's what the check is checking for?

I won't debate what proc means with you. I'm aware that I'm probably wrong. I will tell you what I would approve of though, because I'm certainly not wrong about that.

A proc set should be anything that requires a check... Basically anything worded similarly to "If _____, then _____."

The only things that should be allowed in a non-proc environment are constant unconditional bonuses.

Whatever the "technical truth" may be, I do believe what I described to be the intent of the change. If anything I think things like Pariah are the very most egregious procs because their values are so conditional dynamic and slidey it just procs rechecks reprocs rechecks and reprocs constantly.

I'm sorry you went through a lot of work to acquire a set that doesn't work... But you aren't the first. There's no rhyme, reason, or list to their decision and that is a source of frustration for many of us.

Dynamic scaling stat increases are similar to mythics in a sense that you have to sacrifice something to get the higher benefit…

Coral Riptide isn’t free where Proc sets always are. You have to maintain low resources to have high yield from the set. Similar to Pariah having to maintain low health.

There is no action involved with scaling stats, only a constant shift in effectiveness based on your state of resource maintenance. You have to double bar the set to maintain the benefit of the set. You can’t backbar it, and then get the benefit on your frontbar like other stat increasing sets like Clever Alchemist that are actual proc sets, as you do something, then get an immediate benefit for free, or free bursts of damage.

While Pariah is arguably overperforming… that is due to the fact that sets like Coral Riptide, that are the counter, following the same scaling stat increase, do not function.

Having sets like Coral Riptide that players who enjoy no-proc no-cp could aspire to complete is a great thing… the direction of sets have gravitated toward procs unfortunately so when you get something like Coral Riptide finally, it’s a godsend.

I would love to see more sets that dynamically scale added to the game, and then included in those campaigns.

Starting with a fix to Coral Riptide, and then the removal of the “to non-player enemies” restriction associated with Bahsei’s Mania from Rockgrove.

More options is always a good thing.

OBJnoob

I 100% agree with where you draw the line between free proc sets and proc sets that require talent and managing. It just doesn't matter because it's still a proc set.

And "more options is always a good thing," is the exact opposite of what they were thinking when they made the campaign non-proc.

The only things that should be allowed in non-proc environments are constant stat bonuses. I want Pariah removed... You want Riptide added... I don't think either of us are going to be satisfied.

Are you aware of the ongoing list of sets allowed in Ravenwatch that Caperguy has been trying to update and maintain for the last year or two? Or how many people have begged for an official list?

They either don't know or don't care man. And I'm not as resentful of the devs as a lot of people are... I'm just being honest, they don't know where to draw the line or how to code it.

I'm actually not trying to argue. Got a lot of respect for you after our last encounter. I'm trying to save you a headache. Ravenwatch is the land of the lost. And it's actually still fun to play in... 8 out of 10 of the most complained about things don't happen there. But the gear situation? FUBAR.

virtus753

ZOS’ definition of “proc” is “process” - not whatever we players might like to define it as. If it requires conditions and additional calculations on the part of the client, it is considered a proc for the purposes of the game. A very few conditional sets have been reworked to function in no-proc rulesets, but not many. It should certainly be consistent in terms of which proc sets have been reworked to function in no-proc, no disagreement there, but consistency is a thing that has been an “area of growth” for the devs for over 9 years, to put it politely.

For comparison, only 19 sets’ fifth piece bonuses were considered to be no proc during the testing phase before Blackwood. That’s how wide a net “proc” covers in this game.

Dagoth_Rac

ZOS do not determine "proc set" based on some kind of philosophy of fair combat and balance. It is about server calculations. Can the server just "set it and forget it" because it is some flat, unchanging value? Or does the server need to constantly calculate and recalculate what the current set bonus is or whether the set bonus is currently active or on cooldown, or whatever. Since the server needs to constantly check what your current stamina is, and then recalculate the set bonus, it is a "proc" set.

Another thing is that sets that scale off "offensive stats" like stamina or spell damage behave differently than sets that scale off non-offensive stats like health. For example, I believe health scaling sets that do damage cannot crit, whereas damage procs that scale on offensive stats do crit. So the health-scaling Pariah set might behave differently than the stamina-scaling Coral Riptide.

Yes, it is confusing and non-intuitive. And it causes a lot of headaches. But I have a feeling this is working as intended as far as ZOS are concerned. And you are more likely to see Pariah get disabled than Coral Riptide enabled.

The_Titan_Tim

There is zero difference in the amount of data being processed by Pariah or by Coral Riptide.

The set is a passive stat increase based on your missing resource.

A proc is the result of an action being taken, and then some timed bonus being provided. Either instant procs of damage, healing, mitigation, or sustain, or duration ones that eventually time out.

“Do X, Get Y.”

There are no procs in the game that have permanent stat increases that fluctuate, because to be a proc, they can’t be permanent.

Pariah is working as intended, it’s been in the game since Wrothgar and we’ve had no-proc campaigns since Almalexia, ESO has received countless updates in which if this set was bugged, it would have been addressed.

Coral Riptide scales identically to Pariah, and should work just the same. This is an oversight as the set came out during High Isle during a low population time, and given it’s a trial set, a type of content that PvP players tend to ignore. There’s also no Cyrodiil campaign activity on the PTS, therefore it’s impossible to test sets whether they proc in no-cp before making it to live.

This needs to be fixed.

jaws343

By the very nature of both sets, being that neither set gives you their bonuses until a specific condition is met, both sets are in fact procs.

The only thing that would make them not procs is if, at all times, you received their bonuses. Which, is clearly not how they function. The act of needing to meet a condition makes them a proc. Pariah working seems like an oversight. The amount of time spent farming the set is immaterial.

The_Titan_Tim

jaws343 wrote: »

By the very nature of both sets, being that neither set gives you their bonuses until a specific condition is met, both sets are in fact procs.

The only thing that would make them not procs is if, at all times, you received their bonuses. Which, is clearly not how they function. The act of needing to meet a condition makes them a proc. Pariah working seems like an oversight. The amount of time spent farming the set is immaterial.

Semantics. Pariah has been working since its creation. We are just now getting sets similar to it, so to say that the Coral Riptide shouldn’t work, let alone Pariah, you’re including Ancient Dragonguard and other sets like that? Because it switches from Damage to Resistance? That set works too in no proc too, and scales based on missing stats.

virtus753

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

By the very nature of both sets, being that neither set gives you their bonuses until a specific condition is met, both sets are in fact procs.

The only thing that would make them not procs is if, at all times, you received their bonuses. Which, is clearly not how they function. The act of needing to meet a condition makes them a proc. Pariah working seems like an oversight. The amount of time spent farming the set is immaterial.

Semantics. Pariah has been working since its creation. We are just now getting sets similar to it, so to say that the Coral Riptide shouldn’t work, let alone Pariah, you’re including Ancient Dragonguard and other sets like that? Because it switches from Damage to Resistance? That set works too in no proc too, and scales based on missing stats.

Pariah did *not* work during the no-proc rule set testing pre-Blackwood. Only 19 sets worked fully, and that was not one of them.

Dagoth_Rac

virtus753 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

By the very nature of both sets, being that neither set gives you their bonuses until a specific condition is met, both sets are in fact procs.

The only thing that would make them not procs is if, at all times, you received their bonuses. Which, is clearly not how they function. The act of needing to meet a condition makes them a proc. Pariah working seems like an oversight. The amount of time spent farming the set is immaterial.

Semantics. Pariah has been working since its creation. We are just now getting sets similar to it, so to say that the Coral Riptide shouldn’t work, let alone Pariah, you’re including Ancient Dragonguard and other sets like that? Because it switches from Damage to Resistance? That set works too in no proc too, and scales based on missing stats.

Pariah did *not* work during the no-proc rule set testing pre-Blackwood. Only 19 sets worked fully, and that was not one of them.

Anything and everything that had a condition or calculation involved was disabled originally. ZOS seem to have made some backend adjustments to push through certain sets on a case-by-case basis. Pariah seems to be one of them. A few of the buff sets, like Medusa and Mighty Chudan, were even disabled at first because while they seemingly give a flat bonus, named buffs cannot stack. So the game was continuously calculating whether you already had Minor Force or Major Resolve to make sure they were not stacking. They eventually changed that on the backend.

Maybe Coral Riptide should be one of the sets that gets looked at for a manual exception and be included in no-proc campaigns. But it is definitely a proc set by ZOS standards.

virtus753

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

By the very nature of both sets, being that neither set gives you their bonuses until a specific condition is met, both sets are in fact procs.

The only thing that would make them not procs is if, at all times, you received their bonuses. Which, is clearly not how they function. The act of needing to meet a condition makes them a proc. Pariah working seems like an oversight. The amount of time spent farming the set is immaterial.

Semantics. Pariah has been working since its creation. We are just now getting sets similar to it, so to say that the Coral Riptide shouldn’t work, let alone Pariah, you’re including Ancient Dragonguard and other sets like that? Because it switches from Damage to Resistance? That set works too in no proc too, and scales based on missing stats.

Pariah did *not* work during the no-proc rule set testing pre-Blackwood. Only 19 sets worked fully, and that was not one of them.

Anything and everything that had a condition or calculation involved was disabled originally. ZOS seem to have made some backend adjustments to push through certain sets on a case-by-case basis. Pariah seems to be one of them. A few of the buff sets, like Medusa and Mighty Chudan, were even disabled at first because while they seemingly give a flat bonus, named buffs cannot stack. So the game was continuously calculating whether you already had Minor Force or Major Resolve to make sure they were not stacking. They eventually changed that on the backend.

Maybe Coral Riptide should be one of the sets that gets looked at for a manual exception and be included in no-proc campaigns. But it is definitely a proc set by ZOS standards.

Yes, that's correct, and I agree they need to be consistent. It's certainly fair to point to sets like Pariah and say Coral Riptide seems like it functions similarly. Personally I think they should both be included or both excluded. But it's also important to get the starting facts straight, especially since (as you've explained) ZOS uses an extremely wide definition of proc that has surprised many players in the past. I understand how some people might feel it's semantics, but there is an underlying functionality behind those semantics.

I wish ZOS were more consistent in general, too, whatever they choose to do (or not to do) about Coral Riptide.

The_Titan_Tim

Coral Riptide does not fall under any of the examples found online, neither does Pariah.

OBJnoob

Lol come on man not the google definition.

I looked it up too but decided it wasn't a relevant definition since ESO kinda went away from percentage based luck procs and went instead for cooldown managed guaranteed-on-action procs.

By THAT definition the only proc sets are like... Valkyn Skoria and Bloodspawn.

The_Titan_Tim

OBJnoob wrote: »

Lol come on man not the google definition.

I looked it up too but decided it wasn't a relevant definition since ESO kinda went away from percentage based luck procs and went instead for cooldown managed guaranteed-on-action procs.

By THAT definition the only proc sets are like... Valkyn Skoria and Bloodspawn.

Well, if ZOS had a different definition, I would love to see it. Feel free to quote any team member giving a different definition.

NordSwordnBoard

@The_Titan_Tim

Brian Wheeler:

On February 15th, we will be disabling Item Set bonuses outside of pure stat gains. This means any item set which has a proc, or condition which is driven by an ability, will have that ability disabled. This includes Item Sets like Seducer, as that set reduces Magicka cost abilities by 10%. That reduction of cost is done via an ability, which has to check anytime you cast an ability if it’s cost should be reduced. Other sets, such as Hunding’s Rage, is completely unaffected by this change as it simply grants stats without requirements.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561180/feb-15-cyrodiil-test-details/p1

OBJnoob

And I don't agree with that at all, but there you have your answer. If I had my way Seducer would work. -shrugs-

As has been said before... I agree that Pariah and Coral are the same. And I agree that they should be treated the same. Since Pariah is allowed I can absolutely see why you find it inconsistent and foolish that Coral isn't.

But since I would prefer a truly no proc Ravenwatch I would rather see Pariah go than Coral come. It Coral gets added then you're happy with the set you farmed but the non-existent list of things that do or do not work continues to need testing because there's no real sense behind it. If Pariah, and other currently working proc sets get removed, then we can at least understand what proc means and no longer waste time farming sets for a place where they won't work.

The_Titan_Tim

OBJnoob wrote: »

And I don't agree with that at all, but there you have your answer. If I had my way Seducer would work. -shrugs-

As has been said before... I agree that Pariah and Coral are the same. And I agree that they should be treated the same. Since Pariah is allowed I can absolutely see why you find it inconsistent and foolish that Coral isn't.

But since I would prefer a truly no proc Ravenwatch I would rather see Pariah go than Coral come. It Coral gets added then you're happy with the set you farmed but the non-existent list of things that do or do not work continues to need testing because there's no real sense behind it. If Pariah, and other currently working proc sets get removed, then we can at least understand what proc means and no longer waste time farming sets for a place where they won't work.

If they stuck with that list, it wouldn’t be a problem whatsoever, but they keep redefining what it means to be a proc set, and in the current game, it’s much easier to make like sets perform, than it would be to go through and disable every other set that’s not on that list.