Best and worst Boss designs in game?

Woodenplank

First off; This is not meant to bash developers! I like to think of it as what works and what doesn't.

So what's your favourite and least favourite Boss fight in the game? I'll go first.

Worst: Caillaoife - Bloodroot Forge
The Boss' main mechanic is also my main gripe with it. This hagraven will occasionally form a 'Garden' around herself; a ring of vines and branches that makes her wimmune to damage and reflects projectiles. Only, it takes a while to come into effect, to the point where DDs often fail to notice she's no longer taking damage, or - in Normal Mode - enough time that they can kill her before the immunity actually kicks in. This has convinced a lot of people that she is, in fact, not immune at all.a

Furthermore, it's not a visual "shield" or bubble around the Boss. It's a pretty wide ring, with enough space to comfortably fit the entire group, which convinces a lot of people that you're supposed to stack inside it, thinking that it's like the Death Ring from Praxin Doure in Spindleclutch II, or the toxic ring from ICP's Abomination, which punish you for trying to leave them.

And what does the Boss do while immune? Spawns a tonne of adds.
The whole 'go immune while you fight arbitrary minions' is a concept done to death already, and typically feels like a crutch for inflating the difficulty of an otherwise simplistic Boss (see Remnant: From the Ashes for many examples of this...), and honestly feels rather below ZOS' boss standard.
And when the effect ends, the Boss turns into a flock of birds and teleports a short distance away - a mechanic that adds as much to the fight as when the Roost Mother in Blackheart Haven used it; which is to say very little. DDs have to reapply ground AoEs.

And finally... the Boss has an alternating Winter's Grasp/Summer's Heat thing going on, where being hit by her fire damage causes the next frost to hit harder, and vice versa. But unless you're bringing an off-tank to a regular 4-man Dungeon, there's not much avoiding it any way... ?
Just to end on a high note; I think Galchobhar of the same dungeon is excellent design!


Best: Vashai & S'kinrai - Maw of Lorkhaj
A.k.a. The Twins. One of the most infamous fights in the game, and probably considered the hardest when it first came out. It introduced that most pernicious of all MMO evils; individual responsibility.
Whether a DD, healer, or tank you had to play close attention to the Yellow Light/Blue Dark mechanic, or risk wiping half the Trial Group.

For those that don't know...
The Twin Khajiit; one dark, one light, assign their respective colors to nearest 6 players, dividing the group half/half. Players can only damage the opposite color boss, and approaching an opposite color player leads to a cataclysmic explosion, killing the heedless players and anyone nearby.
Couple this with occasional color switches (with just a few moments warning); the Bosses occasionally 'nuking' half the area, being only survivable by running off to the correctly coloured side, and you have yourself a recipe for a dreadful headless chicken run.

But oh when it works! When people understand the mechanics! When the Tanks cross Taunt the Bosses over , whe the Color-swaps switch sides in clockwise unison; when the neatly stacked DDs follow just behind Vashai's Void zones, and burn him down - it all plays like beautiful dance! One where a single misstep could spell disaster.

Also, as a side note, I'm not sure if ZOS really splurged on its first DLC Trial, or if it was a case of divine daedric inspiration, but the voice over for Maw of Lorkhaj bosses is really top tier. The lines have a twinge of villainly cheesiness of course, but the voice actors' delivery really sells it and makes it sound genuinely threatening. And while I think Rakkhat has the finer introduction, the Twins certainly measure up!

MerguezMan

Best and wort boss design ?

I'd say the one that turns you into a goat, without any hesitation.

merpins

Bad design, in my opinion, is any boss with an immunity phase but no mechanic to go along with it. As in, the boss just becomes immune to damage for a while. This can be a good thing if it encourages you to interact with mechanics that were intended to be interacted with, but most of the time it's just to pad out the time it takes to kill the boss. If ya wanted that, just increase its health. This is common in many games, some even make all damage reflect back at you in these phases with varying levels of warning for when it's gonna happen. It's boring most of the time, and serves the purpose of making a less interesting fight longer most of the time.

SkaraMinoc

merpins wrote: »

Bad design, in my opinion, is any boss with an immunity phase but no mechanic to go along with it. As in, the boss just becomes immune to damage for a while.

The robot boss in Frostvault that freezes himself for several minutes while players go AFK.

fizl101

MerguezMan wrote: »

Best and wort boss design ?

I'd say the one that turns you into a goat, without any hesitation.

Who doesn't want to be a goat eating sweetrolls! I have a set of grisly gourmet purely so I can drop sweetrolls about. wouldn't use it in a vet trial, but its great fun

Jaraal

Best: Frostvault skeever boss. Fun.

Worst: Havocrel Duke of Storms. Spending most of your time immune to damage as a gimmick to extend fight time is annoying.

zaria

fizl101 wrote: »

MerguezMan wrote: »

Best and wort boss design ?

I'd say the one that turns you into a goat, without any hesitation.

Who doesn't want to be a goat eating sweetrolls! I have a set of grisly gourmet purely so I can drop sweetrolls about. wouldn't use it in a vet trial, but its great fun

LOL. goat simulator 3.14.
I say this surprised me quite a bit.

aaisoaho

The most enjoyable is indeed the MOL Twins for me. The Twins 2: Electric Boogaloo in DSR is close second, but it lacks the dance-like coreography of the MOL Twins.

I personally get bored each time the dungeon finder lands me in LOM. In it, the most dullest boss is the dragon on balcony fight. Kill 3 Stranglers, run over bugs and kill some adds to waste time to get the dragon to land. Then repeat it two more times.

gepe87

Best: Velidreth; Lord Warden; Ondagore; Symphony of Blades; Twins

Worst: Ibomez; Azureblight Lurcher; Positrox- Negatrix;; Z'Maja

Barto92

Walks-Like-Thunder in Murkmire
Definitely the worst design

Roztlin45

I dislike any boss that holds your character and no way to break free . Others have to disable alters or kill something to break you free.

AcadianPaladin

I absolutely hate any boss that routinely breaks the tank's taunt. Nothing more frustrating for a tank than being unable to do job #1 (since you sure can't do dps as a tank).

robpr

Best: Most of trial ones except Asylum, where everything is on a timer in a loop.
Worst: Entirety of LoM, Bridge troll in SO, Lady Thorn in CT, Gargoyle with pushing stones in MGF, Engine Guardian

AvalonRanger

I hate second boss of Scalecaller Peak. It's a most disgusting dungeon ever.

colossalvoids

Worst I can remember are Maarselok's second appearance (stranglers one) with annoying roleplay phase after the nerf/rework idk was that. Frost Vault's centurion roleplay, especially after the giant nerf to it so it's not even remotely engaging.

KlauthWarthog

Invulnerability phases are fine when you get to actually do something fun on them. The skeevaton phases on Frostvault are invulnerability phases.

Tommy_The_Gun

I am not really sure what is the worst boss in terms of design, but Imho the universal rule here would be if boss has a "one shot" mechanics and / or unbreakable CC that ignores CC immunity.

Those 2 things are signs that devs wanted to make the boss challenging, but they did not know how, so the went "easy mode" and slapped one shot & unbreakable CC mechanics.

BlueRaven

“Best: Vashai & S'kinrai - Maw of Lorkhaj”

Conceptually it’s a fun fight, but the design falls flat.

When a bunch of mods feels required (specifically ones that highlight if you are light or dark, and what the debuff others around you have), that is a design problem.

It can be a fun fight, but the trial is way too subtle in giving out important info.

Also: That fight is the most difficult fight in that trial, and it is the 3rd boss of five. Kind of odd structurally.

emilyhyoyeon

the best of the best are without question Domihaus from FH, Zaan from SCP, and Velidreth from COS all in terms of boss characterization, thematic design, and mechanical design. They feel actually compelling as bosses.
No other bosses come close, but I will say all main and side bosses of Shipwright's Regret have great characterization.

I want be clear that I'm not saying those three are the only good bosses, but they are perfect. The only ''issue'' is power creep making them feel weak nowadays.

colossalvoids

BlueRaven wrote: »

“Best: Vashai & S'kinrai - Maw of Lorkhaj”


When a bunch of mods feels required (specifically ones that highlight if you are light or dark, and what the debuff others around you have), that is a design problem.

Retired from raiding for quite a while and genuinely curious if there were changes in recent year causing this? As I'm pretty sure no add-on there was ever even close to mandatory.

robpr

colossalvoids wrote: »

Retired from raiding for quite a while and genuinely curious if there were changes in recent year causing this? As I'm pretty sure no add-on there was ever even close to mandatory.

This has been an issue as long as MoL exists. Out of the blue some people just don't get the white halo or shadow smoke on their heads, but as long as everybody play the mechanic as intended and swap on random 3 color change (there is still a circle on the floor while this) everything is fine and even the bug fixes itself.

BlueRaven

colossalvoids wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

“Best: Vashai & S'kinrai - Maw of Lorkhaj”


When a bunch of mods feels required (specifically ones that highlight if you are light or dark, and what the debuff others around you have), that is a design problem.

Retired from raiding for quite a while and genuinely curious if there were changes in recent year causing this? As I'm pretty sure no add-on there was ever even close to mandatory.

Did you raid in WoW? In the plague(?) wing of naxx, the final boss with the “plus”/“negative” debuffs? Did you do that?

Similar design but with a few more added mechanics. The problem is that for a lot of people it’s hard to tell which debuff they or another player have. The game gives out a light or dark halo affect on players, but it’s kind of subtle and there are no other indications. And in the confusion of that fight, it can get hard to know who you should be near and who you can’t.

Some mods really highlight the debuff.

I am just a backup in the trial group (I like the people there, but trials/dungeons I don’t do unless invited), but our trial organizer asks us to run three mods in particular for that particular trial. I would tell you which three but I am away from my computer until this evening.

colossalvoids

robpr wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Retired from raiding for quite a while and genuinely curious if there were changes in recent year causing this? As I'm pretty sure no add-on there was ever even close to mandatory.

This has been an issue as long as MoL exists. Out of the blue some people just don't get the white halo or shadow smoke on their heads, but as long as everybody play the mechanic as intended and swap on random 3 color change (there is still a circle on the floor while this) everything is fine and even the bug fixes itself.

Interesting enough as I don't recall seeing this happen despite having it 100% years ago.

colossalvoids

BlueRaven wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

“Best: Vashai & S'kinrai - Maw of Lorkhaj”


When a bunch of mods feels required (specifically ones that highlight if you are light or dark, and what the debuff others around you have), that is a design problem.

Retired from raiding for quite a while and genuinely curious if there were changes in recent year causing this? As I'm pretty sure no add-on there was ever even close to mandatory.

Similar design but with a few more added mechanics. The problem is that for a lot of people it’s hard to tell which debuff they or another player have. The game gives out a light or dark halo affect on players, but it’s kind of subtle and there are no other indications. And in the confusion of that fight, it can get hard to know who you should be near and who you can’t.

Some mods really highlight the debuff.

In a way I'm getting that some can be overwhelmed by telegraphs/vfx and performing their role whilst maintaining mandatory mechanics at the same time, but if that's not a bugged state a person mentioned above (which can't be a players fault obviously) it's same for any telegraph really, not much about just this exact encounter at hand.

BlueRaven

colossalvoids wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

“Best: Vashai & S'kinrai - Maw of Lorkhaj”


When a bunch of mods feels required (specifically ones that highlight if you are light or dark, and what the debuff others around you have), that is a design problem.

Retired from raiding for quite a while and genuinely curious if there were changes in recent year causing this? As I'm pretty sure no add-on there was ever even close to mandatory.

Similar design but with a few more added mechanics. The problem is that for a lot of people it’s hard to tell which debuff they or another player have. The game gives out a light or dark halo affect on players, but it’s kind of subtle and there are no other indications. And in the confusion of that fight, it can get hard to know who you should be near and who you can’t.

Some mods really highlight the debuff.

In a way I'm getting that some can be overwhelmed by telegraphs/vfx and performing their role whilst maintaining mandatory mechanics at the same time, but if that's not a bugged state a person mentioned above (which can't be a players fault obviously) it's same for any telegraph really, not much about just this exact encounter at hand.

Well, I can't speak for everyone. There are people who may play in lower resolutions, have a cluttered interface, or just some visual disability, that may have a difficult time seeing it. But the phrase "I can't tell if I am light or dark" gets mentioned a lot during that fight.
The point being that for such an important combat mechanic (and getting that right feels like 80% of that fight), it's fairly subtle. The mods certainly help.

Woodenplank

Yes; sometimes overloading of vfx and too many wierd AoE things on the ground can make otherwisely enjoyable Boss fights a mess, since people miss important telegraphs.

But at least it seems we can all agree to hate Boss invulnerability phases with nothing interesting to do meanwhile.

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

the best of the best are without question Domihaus from FH, Zaan from SCP, and Velidreth from COS all in terms of boss characterization, thematic design, and mechanical design. They feel actually compelling as bosses.
No other bosses come close, but I will say all main and side bosses of Shipwright's Regret have great characterization.

I want be clear that I'm not saying those three are the only good bosses, but they are perfect. The only ''issue'' is power creep making them feel weak nowadays.

And here Domihaus actually has an invulnerability phase where he summons adds, but quite importantly he exits invulnerability as soon as you beat the adds. In the last summon phase, he doesn't he go out of combat either!

And the hiding behind pillars to avoid the one-shot, being careful not to run out of pillars! combined with the shifting back and forth in a clear inner/outer ring makes it a really fun fight.

I would probably add Lord Warden Dusk to this list. 'Powercreep' has it made very easy, but it's a very intricate fight in reality.
The mechanic of jumping into a portal to avoid a one-shot is perhaps not the most interesting, but the limit of 2 people per portal, and the fact that accidentally stepping in will cost a life later makes it work, I think - failing this mechanic won't cost a one-shot death now, but it will later! Possibly you, possibly another group member.

emilyhyoyeon

BlueRaven wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

“Best: Vashai & S'kinrai - Maw of Lorkhaj”


When a bunch of mods feels required (specifically ones that highlight if you are light or dark, and what the debuff others around you have), that is a design problem.

Retired from raiding for quite a while and genuinely curious if there were changes in recent year causing this? As I'm pretty sure no add-on there was ever even close to mandatory.

Similar design but with a few more added mechanics. The problem is that for a lot of people it’s hard to tell which debuff they or another player have. The game gives out a light or dark halo affect on players, but it’s kind of subtle and there are no other indications. And in the confusion of that fight, it can get hard to know who you should be near and who you can’t.

Some mods really highlight the debuff.

In a way I'm getting that some can be overwhelmed by telegraphs/vfx and performing their role whilst maintaining mandatory mechanics at the same time, but if that's not a bugged state a person mentioned above (which can't be a players fault obviously) it's same for any telegraph really, not much about just this exact encounter at hand.

Well, I can't speak for everyone. There are people who may play in lower resolutions, have a cluttered interface, or just some visual disability, that may have a difficult time seeing it. But the phrase "I can't tell if I am light or dark" gets mentioned a lot during that fight.
The point being that for such an important combat mechanic (and getting that right feels like 80% of that fight), it's fairly subtle. The mods certainly help.

The Relequen Overload mechanic is a similar problem. It's a super important mechanic that is basically a default ''get the addon'' thing. The tiny pre-zaps before the actual mechanic starts applying the no-bar-swap beam is very subtle, especially when there's a million other visual cues on the character's body.

I actually have a visual and aural processing problem so the Relequen mechanic is pretty killer for me. Addons like Codes or Raid Notifier actually don't help me either, because their visual and audio cues are a trigger. The less sudden stimuli I have, the better, and the beep beeps and flashing words of these addons just don't work for me.
In CR, I just have to play the mechanic where I can't control which bar I end up on. (Thankfully I was never into score pushing raids so it was never a big deal, except for when I tanked and the meta backbar staff for tank was lightning, and I didn't play warden.) I don't think that's a good implementation of that mechanic, though.
A possible better implementation of the Overload pre-zap indicator could've been, for example, a small, pulsing foot AOE visible to the player only, along with the tiny spark particles.

But anyway, MOL Twins' mechanic has always been a lot less sensually overwhelming than Relequen for me personally, mostly because there's a lot less going on in that room compared to CR+3. I can still see it being an issue for some people though.

Good indicators for me, personally, are the Siroria expanding AOE, for example. Taking everyone's needs into account is complicated.

Agenericname

My least favorite is Varzunon in Graven Deep and similarly Corruption of Stone in Earthen Root Enclave.

Im still not entirely sure if or what the actual mechanics in the Varzunon fight are. I know we burn, avoid standing in bad, and hope that it dies before it becomes too large to reliably taunt/target.

Corruption of Stone, the only way that I have ever seen the HM completed was just ignore the stone attronarchs and burn him.

I tend to prefer fights with actual mechanics, even if they are eventually able to be skipped. Zaan for example, the HM has several rather unforgiving mechanics, but they're there just the same. Once you understand them, there is a clear path foward.

LatentBuzzard

Woodenplank wrote: »

Yes; sometimes overloading of vfx and too many wierd AoE things on the ground can make otherwisely enjoyable Boss fights a mess.

Baron Zaudrus enters the chat.

Jaraal

Woodenplank wrote: »

I would probably add Lord Warden Dusk to this list. 'Powercreep' has it made very easy, but it's a very intricate fight in reality.
The mechanic of jumping into a portal to avoid a one-shot is perhaps not the most interesting, but the limit of 2 people per portal, and the fact that accidentally stepping in will cost a life later makes it work, I think - failing this mechanic won't cost a one-shot death now, but it will later! Possibly you, possibly another group member.

Of all the dungeons I've soloed, this one has to be the most challenging. Getting past Ibomez, getting past the gates, and then the Lord Warden fight. But because of the challenges, it was the most satisfying to finish.

SickleCider

I had to think really hard about this one. For the worst, I've landed on The Whisperer in Spindleclutch I for all the unnecessary bright flashes. It's not a mechanically difficult fight, but not being able to look at the screen adds an unwelcome layer of spice. Any boss that flashbangs the player has my ire.