nerf healing potential...

Sparxlost

some suggestions i have for combating those know-it-all pvp tankdpshealers that we all know....
heavy armor: remove their healing bonus and change juggernaut passive to give them 2000 health per piece of heavy armor... and make rapid mending apply permanent immunity to defile when wearing at least five pieces of heavy armor...

Light armor: change spell warding to give them 1% bonus to healing power per piece of light armor

Healing in general: Make it so healing only slightly with spell power and mostly with healing power buffs....

there is more to this post but just these changes would be a good start.... if they did this then they could get rid of the battle buff/debuff of pvp zones entirely as im not entirely sure what that is supposed to accomplish other than confusion and segregation of pvp/pve builds..

feel free to add your thoughts down below just try and be sensible...

Araneae6537

No, healing has already been nerfed too much in ways that effect both PVE and PVP — the nerf to Radiating Regeneration for instance. I don’t need my ability to do any damage gimped as well!

A limit to HoT stacking now would be great, either game-wide or with Battle Spirit. And as has been brought up in another thread, Vigor should receive a nerf, such as losing Minor Resolve, to not be better than the dedicated healing skill lines.

Artim_X

Giving straight 2,000 health for each piece of heavy armor equipped would mess with balance too much. Ex: 2% health of someone with 20k health is equivalent to 400 health. Choice and consequences are important, such as choices in food, enchants, and mundus. This one change is too extreme.

Defile is one way to counter an opponent with high health and strong heals. Giving someone wearing 5 pieces of heavy defile immunity alongside OP's suggestion of 2k health per piece would be broken.

All ZOS needs to do is have sticky heals with the same name not stack with one another.

Ideally, calculations should ignore crit when deciding which version of the sticky heal has priority based on which version used has the higher value. If the same named heal is used and it is weaker than what has already been applied, it will not affect players under the effect of the stronger heal. If the heal is stronger, then it will replace the one that has already been applied to a player.

However, calculations such as these would probably be too taxing on the server. ZOS could make same named heals not work till the original wears off or have same named heals replace the heal that has already been applied regardless of whether it is weaker or stronger.

tincanman

Nerf 'nerf threads'...

Please

Ishtarknows

We really need a disagree button

Sparxlost

Artim_X wrote: »

Giving straight 2,000 health for each piece of heavy armor equipped would mess with balance too much. Ex: 2% health of someone with 20k health is equivalent to 400 health. Choice and consequences are important, such as choices in food, enchants, and mundus. This one change is too extreme.

Defile is one way to counter an opponent with high health and strong heals. Giving someone wearing 5 pieces of heavy defile immunity alongside OP's suggestion of 2k health per piece would be broken.

All ZOS needs to do is have sticky heals with the same name not stack with one another.

Ideally, calculations should ignore crit when deciding which version of the sticky heal has priority based on which version used has the higher value. If the same named heal is used and it is weaker than what has already been applied, it will not affect players under the effect of the stronger heal. If the heal is stronger, then it will replace the one that has already been applied to a player.

However, calculations such as these would probably be too taxing on the server. ZOS could make same named heals not work till the original wears off or have same named heals replace the heal that has already been applied regardless of whether it is weaker or stronger.

with healing nerfs in general as well as the removal of heavy armors healing buff, users would need enough defense to make up for that.. even if 14k health and defile immunity is too good of a bonus on release of rework id rather that it be good than bad... adn im willing to bet that heavy armor wont be nearly as overpowered as it is now in my opinion..

SkaraMinoc

Sparxlost wrote: »

even if 14k health and defile immunity is too good of a bonus on release of rework id rather that it be good than bad... adn im willing to bet that heavy armor wont be nearly as overpowered as it is now in my opinion..

Many Wardens and Bash builds run 40k health because both Polar Wind and Shielded Assault scale 0.15 max health in PvP. Your suggested change would easily put them over 50k health and make them nearly unkillable.

Polar Wind healers running Oakensoul, Trial by Fire, and Plague Doctor have 50k health in battlegrounds. This would take them over 60k health and their burst heals would crit for 20k+ and probably 25k+ in Cyrodiil.

Sparxlost

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Sparxlost wrote: »

even if 14k health and defile immunity is too good of a bonus on release of rework id rather that it be good than bad... adn im willing to bet that heavy armor wont be nearly as overpowered as it is now in my opinion..

Many Wardens and Bash builds run 40k health because both Polar Wind and Shielded Assault scale 0.15 max health in PvP. Your suggested change would easily put them over 50k health and make them nearly unkillable.

Polar Wind healers running Oakensoul, Trial by Fire, and Plague Doctor have 50k health in battlegrounds. This would take them over 60k health and their burst heals would crit for 20k+ and probably 25k+ in Cyrodiil.

its a poor excuse as all you would have to do is balance mythics and other sets accordingly...

the healing system as it stands is way too accessible and once it is nerfed survivability goes down no matter how much health you have

AcadianPaladin

PvE only here.

Be careful what you ask for. One big reason I enjoy playing a healer is because I can support allies with heals, buffs and damage. If you make me choose between healing and damage, I'll choose damage and join the hordes of dds. Healing is fun but, more importantly, the character must be fun when running solo. And no damage = no fun.

Sparxlost

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

PvE only here.

Be careful what you ask for. One big reason I enjoy playing a healer is because I can support allies with heals, buffs and damage. If you make me choose between healing and damage, I'll choose damage and join the hordes of dds. Healing is fun but, more importantly, the character must be fun when running solo. And no damage = no fun.

when I play healer, i play a healer.. which means that healing is my main priority and at best i will run a couple of skills or maybe even a set in some cases to support damage....

i play a lot of nightblade healer and i feel like the vulnerability from lotus fan is a debuff not a lot of people run so i use that because its more consistant/longer lasting than lightning procs and i wont have to run destro if i dont want to..

combat prayer is another really good dd support skill...

i understand that you think full support builds are boring, but not everyone does and i shouldnt be bullied for not doing enough damage as a healer it's not my job..

in pvp some form of offensive protection is nice but that is usually in the form of a back bar ult as im still healing/debuffing full time...

AcadianPaladin

@Sparxlost I don't think full support builds are boring at all and would consider my healplar a full support healer. Fortunately, the same things that make her heals strong also give her moderate damage. Without changing gear or skills, she can focus her support along a sliding scale ranging from full focus on heal/support with only incidental dps (like from shards) of 5-10k up to decent buff support + HoT with fair damage (15-20k) and, rarely, can focus almost purely on support with damage and supply up to around 25k single target damage. The level of damage she can achieve is plenty for our solo goals as well (soloing a fair number on non-dlc dungeons on normal and most non-dlc WBs). She runs pretty classic healer gear (including SPC) and has never had a complaint about either her healing nor her damage. All that makes, for me, a very fun character.

I actually don't think you and I are that far apart. I'm happy with any healer who can keep the group alive and perhaps offer some buffs. When things are going well, I'd hope the healer can add some incidental damage to help the dd's a bit - but heals/support is the priority and I'd never criticize a healer for not doing 'enough' damage (we are not dd's). At the same time, I really don't want to give up my reasonable level of damage while being a solid group healer. Things that would trigger me away from healing would be if spell damage were to no longer buff damage AND healing since the spell damage synergy is a big part of why I find healing fun.

SundarahFr3akinrican

I think they just need to nerf self healing via the battle spirit buff. Maybe 25% less self healing or something

olsborg

the main thing that needs a nerf for pvp specific imo is block, its too easy to hold block with snb or ice staff and spam a few heals, cant die.

Sparxlost

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

@Sparxlost I don't think full support builds are boring at all and would consider my healplar a full support healer. Fortunately, the same things that make her heals strong also give her moderate damage. Without changing gear or skills, she can focus her support along a sliding scale ranging from full focus on heal/support with only incidental dps (like from shards) of 5-10k up to decent buff support + HoT with fair damage (15-20k) and, rarely, can focus almost purely on support with damage and supply up to around 25k single target damage. The level of damage she can achieve is plenty for our solo goals as well (soloing a fair number on non-dlc dungeons on normal and most non-dlc WBs). She runs pretty classic healer gear (including SPC) and has never had a complaint about either her healing nor her damage. All that makes, for me, a very fun character.

I actually don't think you and I are that far apart. I'm happy with any healer who can keep the group alive and perhaps offer some buffs. When things are going well, I'd hope the healer can add some incidental damage to help the dd's a bit - but heals/support is the priority and I'd never criticize a healer for not doing 'enough' damage (we are not dd's). At the same time, I really don't want to give up my reasonable level of damage while being a solid group healer. Things that would trigger me away from healing would be if spell damage were to no longer buff damage AND healing since the spell damage synergy is a big part of why I find healing fun.

healing would scale with spell power but only slightly.... and if they gave light armor users healing power per light piece then it would be typical for dedicated healers to run light armor to gain access to good healing potential adn stillbe able to deal decent damage... but tanks themselves wont be able to do all three effectively enough to solo any in game encounter...

dsalter

SundarahFr3akinrican wrote: »

I think they just need to nerf self healing via the battle spirit buff. Maybe 25% less self healing or something

or just make healing buffs diminish when stacked past 2 (so this wouldnt cripple PvE to hard) but yeah self healing is the main issue

Sparxlost

The thing about battle buff is that it literally just makes healing yourself as anyone other than heavy armor dpstank impossible

i play a medium armor no stealth mageblade with high health recovery and lots of siphon abilities so that i can regen health in combat. Besides my healing not registering for whatever reason, i cannot heal myself effectively enough to justify running damage sets.. my 20k health just gets destroyed so fast that my healing cant keep up with it very well defensively... all the while you see other classes "exploiting" this for their own gain by being able to heal themselves so easily....

not a good experience for new players and an even worse experience for some who just want to play different builds...

the issues lie in how healing scales, armor passives, and maybe within some sets and class skills (passive or active)....

if they removed battle spirit then i would actually stand a chance against those players because i can run more damage with better healing for myself.... i mean they can already heal themselves to full at a moment so what does it matter??

Jierdanit

Sparxlost wrote: »

The thing about battle buff is that it literally just makes healing yourself as anyone other than heavy armor dpstank impossible

i play a medium armor no stealth mageblade with high health recovery and lots of siphon abilities so that i can regen health in combat. Besides my healing not registering for whatever reason, i cannot heal myself effectively enough to justify running damage sets.. my 20k health just gets destroyed so fast that my healing cant keep up with it very well defensively... all the while you see other classes "exploiting" this for their own gain by being able to heal themselves so easily....

not a good experience for new players and an even worse experience for some who just want to play different builds...

the issues lie in how healing scales, armor passives, and maybe within some sets and class skills (passive or active)....

if they removed battle spirit then i would actually stand a chance against those players because i can run more damage with better healing for myself.... i mean they can already heal themselves to full at a moment so what does it matter??

Please don't ask ZOS to change PvP just because your build isn't working when it's pretty obvious that you're gonna get ruined with 20k hp and medium armor lol

OBJnoob

Sparxlost wrote: »

i play a medium armor no stealth mageblade with high health recovery and lots of siphon abilities so that i can regen health in combat. Besides my healing not registering for whatever reason, i cannot heal myself effectively enough to justify running damage sets.. my 20k health just gets destroyed so fast that my healing cant keep up with it very well defensively... all the while you see other classes "exploiting" this for their own gain by being able to heal themselves so easily....

Wearing damage sets will help your healing. I know that sounds weird, but I promise you it's true. It isn't true for penetration but it is VERY true for damage and crit chance.

Also... Get yourself some more HP. Redoing your attribute points is an easy way, but there are others. At the moment I agree that PvPers are running an obnoxiously high amount of HP, but 20k isn't just low it's super low.

I don't think as many people are using heavy armor as you think. Heavy armor isn't that good. Most good people are wearing a combination. What you see as being tanky is actually probably a combination of being a good player, blocking, and high healing.

Trust me. Just try it. Get your HP to like, I dunno, at least 26 or 28k and stack as much weapon damage as you can without completely destroying your sustain.

And it isn't as though I don't agree that some things need changing. But calling players who do it "right," exploiters or abusers won't get you far. It's like complaining that someone never moves their back row in checkers. What are they supposed to do, lose on purpose??

Okay let's see what else... You say you have high health recovery but you almost certainly don't. Nor should you-- health recovery sucks. What you mean is you have high healing. But apparently you do not have that either. Having some "meh" siphoning abilities on your back bar just for the passive boost to healing is okay but in general you need to weed out the abilities that don't pack much of a punch and create bar space for the ones that do. Some abilities sound good, giving you steady streams of small heals, but in practicality pale in comparison to what you really need which is FAT heals at the push of a button. Healthy Offering and Vigor really need to be what you rely on-- the rest is just gravy. Gravy isn't very good without food to put it on

Anyway. I hope this advice didn't come off as rude, but if you are a new player I would encourage you to take the time to learn how it's done BEFORE making suggestions on how it should be done. It may be your understanding isn't as great as you believe it to be. And you may feel differently after having some success.

Sparxlost

OBJnoob wrote: »

Sparxlost wrote: »

i play a medium armor no stealth mageblade with high health recovery and lots of siphon abilities so that i can regen health in combat. Besides my healing not registering for whatever reason, i cannot heal myself effectively enough to justify running damage sets.. my 20k health just gets destroyed so fast that my healing cant keep up with it very well defensively... all the while you see other classes "exploiting" this for their own gain by being able to heal themselves so easily....

Wearing damage sets will help your healing. I know that sounds weird, but I promise you it's true. It isn't true for penetration but it is VERY true for damage and crit chance.

Also... Get yourself some more HP. Redoing your attribute points is an easy way, but there are others. At the moment I agree that PvPers are running an obnoxiously high amount of HP, but 20k isn't just low it's super low.

I don't think as many people are using heavy armor as you think. Heavy armor isn't that good. Most good people are wearing a combination. What you see as being tanky is actually probably a combination of being a good player, blocking, and high healing.

Trust me. Just try it. Get your HP to like, I dunno, at least 26 or 28k and stack as much weapon damage as you can without completely destroying your sustain.

And it isn't as though I don't agree that some things need changing. But calling players who do it "right," exploiters or abusers won't get you far. It's like complaining that someone never moves their back row in checkers. What are they supposed to do, lose on purpose??

Okay let's see what else... You say you have high health recovery but you almost certainly don't. Nor should you-- health recovery sucks. What you mean is you have high healing. But apparently you do not have that either. Having some "meh" siphoning abilities on your back bar just for the passive boost to healing is okay but in general you need to weed out the abilities that don't pack much of a punch and create bar space for the ones that do. Some abilities sound good, giving you steady streams of small heals, but in practicality pale in comparison to what you really need which is FAT heals at the push of a button. Healthy Offering and Vigor really need to be what you rely on-- the rest is just gravy. Gravy isn't very good without food to put it on

Anyway. I hope this advice didn't come off as rude, but if you are a new player I would encourage you to take the time to learn how it's done BEFORE making suggestions on how it should be done. It may be your understanding isn't as great as you believe it to be. And you may feel differently after having some success.

thanks and no offense taken.. this is what the forums are for..

yes running purple gear and about 4k weapon spell damage is pretty good... i will try to put more health into my build...

healthy offering is waay too strong imo but i will use it.. but this game ISNT checkers so end-game shouldnt look the same or even similar for everyone... Why cant i have a build that relies on recovery and abilities that proc healing over time??? well the answer is i can but id just have to deal with being seen as worse at the game or run skills that would make the build i went for visually unappealing.... Im about 1600 cp casual gamer and there are a lot of things in the game that in my opinion should work but just dont at least not as much as the typical "exploit" (sorry for calling it that i mean builds that are the product of exploitation of unthought of or possibly imbalanced interactions) builds you would encounter.. there is nothing wrong with the visual aspect of the current meta and in fact it sometimes DOES seem like fun but when it outshines the classics i am left wanting...