Purposeful Time Wasters in ToT

Jordan_Black

I'm currently playing against a guy who is waiting his entire turn counter every turn just to be annoying. I wonder if there could be a way to report people like this without bothering people who actually do take a long time to play their hands? This is in Rubedite and he clearly knows what he's doing, it's not like he's a noob who doesn't know what the hourglass is.

AnduinTryggva

Yeah, recently we observe quite a bit of trolling. Not only in ToT though.

loosej

I've met those players as well, and they used to be my number 1 frustration when playing ToT. However, I don't think reporting is the solution. The problem exists because the game allows it to exist, and there will always be people who (ab)use that. My suggestion would be to have shorter turn times for the first turns, and gradually increase them. This could be different depending on the level you're playing, for example lowest rank ranked could start at 60 seconds while rubedite starts at 20 seconds, and unranked could even remain at 90. This way new(er) players don't get punished and still have time to figure the game out.

Added benefit I think would be that people would queue for games that are appropriate for their skillset. I reach ranked rubedite without much of a problem, and while I wouldn't call myself very good, I'm definitely better than people just starting ToT. But when I play ranked and end up in a game like the one op describes, I lose points if I decide not to play along and concede instead, and with the way the ranking system works I risk losing a lot of them. So for a long time I played a lot of games unranked, just so I could concede after 2 or 3 turns without much consequences.

I am however aware how annoying this must be for the newer or more casual ToT player. I've seen multiple people complain in the forums about skilled players in unranked, taking all the fun out of the game for them instead of playing in their own league. By "fixing" the problem for myself, I became part of a different one for other people, which isn't my intention.

These days I play ranked 99% of the time, but:

• I never queue with the idea of "a quick game", but keep in mind that it can last well over 30 minutes and only play if I have at least that much time/patience.
• I keep a book next to me (could be tv or youtube on a second monitor or cellphone if reading isn't your thing), so I can keep myself busy while my opponent decides what to do with 4 coin, 1 power and only 6+ coin cards on the table. This results in even longer games, because I'll finish the passage/page I'm at before playing my own turns, but at least I keep my sanity that way.

Funny thing is, once those players start to think they have a good chance at winning the game, they suddenly pick up the pace. But at that moment I'm invested more in my book than I am in the game, so I'll still take my time to play my turns. Karma can be a real female dog. And if I end up losing the game I'm more than happy to let my last turn run the full 90 seconds.

SeaGtGruff

The timer is one of the reasons I don't play ToT against other players any more-- not because of players letting the timer run out, but because of having the timer end my turn (or watch it end my opponent's turn) in the middle of trying to make a move. I'd rather play against NPCs so I don't need to worry about a stupid timer.

Necrotech_Master

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

The timer is one of the reasons I don't play ToT against other players any more-- not because of players letting the timer run out, but because of having the timer end my turn (or watch it end my opponent's turn) in the middle of trying to make a move. I'd rather play against NPCs so I don't need to worry about a stupid timer.

this is one reason i prefer playing NPCs lol, i dont have a stupid timer lol

ive never had problems with the timer ending my turn early when i did play some pvp tribute matches, but i still hated it being there

Personofsecrets

There have been multiple people do this to mean and especially so if I press the Rajihn button early in a match.

Amottica

They have a defined ammount of time for their turn so it would seem that, while it could be reported, that it would be reporting a player for playing within the defined guidance the game provides. I expect that might be considered frivolous. I will point out that chess, a very sophisticated game, uses time limits and a player has no grounds to complain about an opponent using up the time they have been allotted.

Of course, players can provide Zenimax with constructive feedback and suggestions that make sense in order to change how the time for turns plays out. Of course, Zenimax would need to weigh in providing enough time for players to make their turn which is not going to be the same as what the OP and some others may think is appropriate.

Personofsecrets

Amottica wrote: »

They have a defined ammount of time for their turn so it would seem that, while it could be reported, that it would be reporting a player for playing within the defined guidance the game provides. I expect that might be considered frivolous. I will point out that chess, a very sophisticated game, uses time limits and a player has no grounds to complain about an opponent using up the time they have been allotted.

Of course, players can provide Zenimax with constructive feedback and suggestions that make sense in order to change how the time for turns plays out. Of course, Zenimax would need to weigh in providing enough time for players to make their turn which is not going to be the same as what the OP and some others may think is appropriate.

Some players will say in the chat that they are purposefully using up the time to harass another. In this case, there would be evidence that someone isn't simply playing the game and using the time allotted to them, but is acting in a way that violates the TOS. Still though, would someone have consequences for this behavior? Who knows.

Some of the early cheating in TOT seemed to be taken care of swiftly. On the other hand, cheating that I've seen in PVP has gone ages without action or even response.

Amottica

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

They have a defined ammount of time for their turn so it would seem that, while it could be reported, that it would be reporting a player for playing within the defined guidance the game provides. I expect that might be considered frivolous. I will point out that chess, a very sophisticated game, uses time limits and a player has no grounds to complain about an opponent using up the time they have been allotted.

Of course, players can provide Zenimax with constructive feedback and suggestions that make sense in order to change how the time for turns plays out. Of course, Zenimax would need to weigh in providing enough time for players to make their turn which is not going to be the same as what the OP and some others may think is appropriate.

Some players will say in the chat that they are purposefully using up the time to harass another. In this case, there would be evidence that someone isn't simply playing the game and using the time allotted to them, but is acting in a way that violates the TOS. Still though, would someone have consequences for this behavior? Who knows.

Some of the early cheating in TOT seemed to be taken care of swiftly. On the other hand, cheating that I've seen in PVP has gone ages without action or even response.

That would be evidence of course and is not so bright for someone to actually say that.

Outside of that, it is nothing more than conjecture. Players are free to report other players as they wish. Without such a comment showing intention Zenimax might flag accounts that constantly make such accusations.

But again, the best course of action is to provide well-thought-out constructive feedback to try to bring about a change in the design. Even then there will still be some sort of time limit and there will be players who choose to use it all up and short of actually stating they do it for nefarious reasons there is probably little Zenimax will do about it.

And cheating is a completely different topic, and ballpark, than trying to be annoying. Using up time is not cheating by any means.

WitchyKiki

They sit on the timer, do the same right back to them! They are such selfish players that it will drive them nuts and get them going pretty quick. Same with people who refuse to win games and just stall games overall to continue harassing, I sit on the timer, plop out my switch or a book, its their wasted time.

SilverBride

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Some players will say in the chat that they are purposefully using up the time to harass another. In this case, there would be evidence that someone isn't simply playing the game and using the time allotted to them, but is acting in a way that violates the TOS.

I don't see this as a violation of the ToS. The game gives each player 90 seconds per turn and it does not specify how that time has to be used.

The timer is way too long in the first place. The issue of others letting it run out could be alleviated by making it automatically time out after 10 seconds of inactivity.

Amottica

SilverBride wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Some players will say in the chat that they are purposefully using up the time to harass another. In this case, there would be evidence that someone isn't simply playing the game and using the time allotted to them, but is acting in a way that violates the TOS.

I don't see this as a violation of the ToS. The game gives each player 90 seconds per turn and it does not specify how that time has to be used.

The timer is way too long in the first place. The issue of others letting it run out could be alleviated by making it automatically time out after 10 seconds of inactivity.

In full agreement. The statement they are doing it to harass may be taken into account but I doubt it would hold much sway.

I suggest it is a stretch to suggest that someone playing the game within the defined rules Zenimax has put forth is a violation of the TOS.

SeaGtGruff

After 10 seconds of inactivity? That might sound like a good idea to you, but my experience is that "inactivity" can be defined in different ways by different programs. If you're looking at the Tavern for longer than 10 seconds trying to decide which card to buy, are you supposed to be moving your mouse around the whole time just to be sure the game doesn't prematurely end your turn, even though you've supposedly still got 75 seconds left, because you forgot to keep moving your mouse around while trying to decide? And what if moving the mouse around isn't considered to be "activity" because it's too "inactive"? Are you supposed to be clicking on your cards one after the other, or what?

And keep in mind, your criteria for what consitutes "activity" vs. "inactivity" might be different than what ZOS thinks it should be, so you might be "actively" doing something (in your opinion) and then get upset when the game terminates your turn after 10 seconds because what you were "actively" doing wasn't "active" enough by the game's criteria.

I mean, think about it. Have you ever been in a lengthy PvE match with an NPC and suddenly been kicked out to the character selection screen or login screen due to inactivity or whatever, even though you were actively clicking on cards to play them or buy them the whole time? I have. Now if I'm going to play multiple matches in a row with a given NPC, I make sure I step away from the NPC and run a circle around the room before starting the next match, just to be sure the game doesn't think I'm "idle" for too long just because my character's position within the game environment hasn't budged while I was playing ToT.

I get that some players-- apparently, a LOT of players-- abuse the timer. But I'll probably never play another PvP match as long as there's a timer, because in the few PvP matches that I did play, I sometimes came close to having the timer end my turn before I could finish my moves, and I've seen it end my opponent's turn even though I was watching them actively playing and buying cards when the timer ran out on them. I hate the timer, but not because I think it's too long and needs to be shortened; quite the opposite. But I realize I'm in the minority on this one, so my solution is to avoid PvP matches entirely.

Personofsecrets

SilverBride wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Some players will say in the chat that they are purposefully using up the time to harass another. In this case, there would be evidence that someone isn't simply playing the game and using the time allotted to them, but is acting in a way that violates the TOS.

I don't see this as a violation of the ToS. The game gives each player 90 seconds per turn and it does not specify how that time has to be used.

The timer is way too long in the first place. The issue of others letting it run out could be alleviated by making it automatically time out after 10 seconds of inactivity.

"Harass, stalk, threaten, embarrass, spam or do anything else to another user of any Services that is unwanted"



[snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

AnduinTryggva

To be honest players who could easily win but just drag on during a ranked match are as annoying. I usually ask politely to finish when I see that they could win by a crow or Hlaalu patron turn but I found people that started then to minimize their power generaton on purpose just to annoy the other player.

I don't mind if a match drags during an unranked match but for ranked matches it is really a lack of respect to the other player to drag on purpose.

Necrotech_Master

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

To be honest players who could easily win but just drag on during a ranked match are as annoying. I usually ask politely to finish when I see that they could win by a crow or Hlaalu patron turn but I found people that started then to minimize their power generaton on purpose just to annoy the other player.

I don't mind if a match drags during an unranked match but for ranked matches it is really a lack of respect to the other player to drag on purpose.

im pretty sure most of these stall tactics are just hoping to frustrate the opponent enough to concede so they get a free win (with how bad the point awards are for the leaderboard, and a single loss can offset several wins at the higher ranks)

Jordan_Black

Amottica wrote: »

They have a defined ammount of time for their turn so it would seem that, while it could be reported, that it would be reporting a player for playing within the defined guidance the game provides. I expect that might be considered frivolous. I will point out that chess, a very sophisticated game, uses time limits and a player has no grounds to complain about an opponent using up the time they have been allotted.

Of course, players can provide Zenimax with constructive feedback and suggestions that make sense in order to change how the time for turns plays out. Of course, Zenimax would need to weigh in providing enough time for players to make their turn which is not going to be the same as what the OP and some others may think is appropriate.

While what you said remains true about tournament OTB chess, the online chess world has caught up. Chess.com, which by this point it's safe to say dominates the online chess world, has a variety of measures in place to stop spiteful rubes from abusing the clock to annoy people.

A few other thoughts - the 10 seconds of inactivity idea is dumb. ToT is a pretty sophisticated game and I've often times needed more than 10 seconds to make a decision.

But running out your clock over and over while not really doing anything is clearly harassment and as Person of Secrets pointed out it's against ToS.

DragonRacer

Seems like people sometimes use this to troll about their win, too. Just had a heated match that was pretty even/back and forth with a Crow player. They got me on the last hand where their power being added was 31 and it was the last hand of the deathmatch. I wasn’t gonna be given another round and wouldn’t have overcome that even if I had one more round coming.

This player played their cards very quickly all match, as did I.

Yet, when the game was clearly won and no more hands would be played, they forced me to sit there until the hourglass ended the match for them.

I hope that made them feel better about their small appendage, as that was clearly done simply to be a jerk. Unless it was just the most coincidental timing ever of their RL pulling them away from the match.

dbwyld

Personally, I really like SilverBride's idea of the 10 second inactivity timer, especially in ranked matches. If players are skilled enough to do well and play in the upper ranks, they should be able to determine a plan while the other player is acting, and even if that plan gets bounced by a card purchase they were hoping to get, the higher rank games should be higher challenge all around. We don't need time to read the text on the cards any more, since we should likely know what the symbols mean by now, and I think a faster paced game would be much more enjoyable.

Likewise, and I may not be the only one, but I don't have all day to spend playing only a few games of ToT and doing nothing else. My game time is fairly limited by being a silly adult with a job and real life crap to do, and I'd like to get more than one or two matches in over the course of an hour or two (if I'm lucky).

Youmee

Jordan_Black wrote: »

I'm currently playing against a guy who is waiting his entire turn counter every turn just to be annoying. I wonder if there could be a way to report people like this without bothering people who actually do take a long time to play their hands? This is in Rubedite and he clearly knows what he's doing, it's not like he's a noob who doesn't know what the hourglass is.

Its not necessarily the case. When we see that the people are thinking over their turns for too long, we just dont't want to waste our time and do something else. I prefer to finish my turn quicly and some house work, or watch a video on the other monitor or even play another game.

What is really annoying is people who really THIONK about their turns, showing no respect to their opponents, and expecting other people to passively wait while they finish. Disgusting!

Neoauspex

If somebody is trolling you, concede-> swap character-> requeue. If it's a close match, sometimes there are tough decisions in this game, sometimes people's wives are yelling at them etc. Try to be patient, scroll through Twitter or whatever.

NoSoup

Yeah been getting this a bit lately. Last night I swapped out a crow card I knew they'd want and probably be able to get in the 3rd round. After that every single turn they took the hour glass got to 1 second before they ended their turn even though they played their hand within 15 seconds.

spartaxoxo

ZOS needs to do something about hourglass griefing like that. I don't know how they could handle it, but something should be done.

WitchyKiki

I really can't think of a way TOT can be improved when it comes to clock-griefers. If you cut off time from people who turn the timer at the last possible second because they are griefing, you are also punishing well meaning players that are just slow. At this point, I see time griefers as a side effect of the game and I have little respect for those folks, so my gameplay slightly shifts to spam rahjin.

gusthermopyle

This is nonsense. The timer is there to give each player adequate time to consider their moves & plays. I rarely if ever use all the time myself, but occassionally i have actually hit the timer end without even finishing my plays - just lots of thinking to do.

Some people play carefully and slowly, some play fast & loose! But it's all well within the parameters of the game. It's a card game, it's also a mind game like any form of card gambling. Some people will try to use it to freak you out, frustrate you into making a false move. That is a totally legit way to play any card game, and if you can't handle it then that's a YOU problem.

Certainly not a reason to shout at ESO to change the game because of a small thing that YOU don't like.

kyatos_binarini

when i meet these people i just act the same way and read the forum on do some other stuff while time is ticking

Jordan_Black

gusthermopyle wrote: »

This is nonsense. The timer is there to give each player adequate time to consider their moves & plays. I rarely if ever use all the time myself, but occassionally i have actually hit the timer end without even finishing my plays - just lots of thinking to do.

Some people play carefully and slowly, some play fast & loose! But it's all well within the parameters of the game. It's a card game, it's also a mind game like any form of card gambling. Some people will try to use it to freak you out, frustrate you into making a false move. That is a totally legit way to play any card game, and if you can't handle it then that's a YOU problem.

Certainly not a reason to shout at ESO to change the game because of a small thing that YOU don't like.

I'm hardly shouting at them, just throwing an idea out there. I've played online competitive chess and I'm well aware of psychological tactics. The online chess world is taking measures - they disagree with you that being a jerk on purpose (not taking your time reasonably) is something that's legit/good to have around in the community. For example, if you are obviously losing, and just wait out your time to annoy your opponent, that's a ding against your account on chess.com

Necrotech_Master

Jordan_Black wrote: »

gusthermopyle wrote: »

This is nonsense. The timer is there to give each player adequate time to consider their moves & plays. I rarely if ever use all the time myself, but occassionally i have actually hit the timer end without even finishing my plays - just lots of thinking to do.

Some people play carefully and slowly, some play fast & loose! But it's all well within the parameters of the game. It's a card game, it's also a mind game like any form of card gambling. Some people will try to use it to freak you out, frustrate you into making a false move. That is a totally legit way to play any card game, and if you can't handle it then that's a YOU problem.

Certainly not a reason to shout at ESO to change the game because of a small thing that YOU don't like.

I'm hardly shouting at them, just throwing an idea out there. I've played online competitive chess and I'm well aware of psychological tactics. The online chess world is taking measures - they disagree with you that being a jerk on purpose (not taking your time reasonably) is something that's legit/good to have around in the community. For example, if you are obviously losing, and just wait out your time to annoy your opponent, that's a ding against your account on chess.com

i would agree with this, but i think the problem is how tribute games are set up

in chess, in the situation you describe, you would concede and end the game
in tribute if you concede, YOU get penalized for doing so

so people would rather just sit there and wait out the timer as a way to annoy the opponent but at the same time avoid being penalized by the game itself for doing the "proper" action and conceding

spartaxoxo

I think the concede penalty is a separate issue. Intentionally trying to disrupt and annoy another player is not appropriate behavior and something should be done about it. It's a form of griefing and is not the kind of thing most games allow.

NoSoup

About the only thing they can do is program it so that the timer runs down faster once you have no playable moves left.

For me it goes like this: slow/still learning players are actively playing albeit very slowly until they're forced to rush their last couple of moves.

Trolls play their hand in the first 20 - 30 seconds then just sit there and wait for the timer to almost expire with doing absolutely nothing more.

Sheezabeast

They could solve this by making a pop-up window that says "Need more time?" and it continues the hour glass after clicked. If someone is griefing, and trying to time the hour glass out, they'll be forced to interact one way or the other.