Sorcerer matriarch needs changes

Ren_TheRedFox

@Evilspock There is no reason to nerf the Matriarch just because she "flutters in everyone's face everywhere".

It's not the player's fault that the matriarch is flying around all the time .... Sorcs need a matriarch buff.

They don't have burst healing...people are "forced" to use force and darkness to "create" burst healing. Other classes have their burst healing all the time, while Sorcs have to "keep alive" their burst healing, which is not "fair". I've been playing Sorcheal for a while now, and people know that if my Matriarch goes down, I'm about to go down too.

As @Turtle_Bot said, we almost have an 8 second penalty to "escape" and recast our matriarch.... I don't know how people would feel about that if all other burst heals had a penalty and couldn't be used for 8 seconds....

fizzylu

BlueRaven wrote: »

How would this be different than vigor?

It would count towards the requirements for some of the class passives. Also matriarch costs magicka, not stamina.

Ren_TheRedFox

Even if the amount of healing is too high compared to the other burst healers, they could easily nerf the healing output ..... the problem is not the healing output itself .... rather the fact that we don't have an accessible burst heal all the time

BlueRaven

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

@Evilspock There is no reason to nerf the Matriarch just because she "flutters in everyone's face everywhere".

It's not the player's fault that the matriarch is flying around all the time .... Sorcs need a matriarch buff.

They don't have burst healing...people are "forced" to use force and darkness to "create" burst healing. Other classes have their burst healing all the time, while Sorcs have to "keep alive" their burst healing, which is not "fair". I've been playing Sorcheal for a while now, and people know that if my Matriarch goes down, I'm about to go down too.

As @Turtle_Bot said, we almost have an 8 second penalty to "escape" and recast our matriarch.... I don't know how people would feel about that if all other burst heals had a penalty and couldn't be used for 8 seconds....

I am not arguing your point, I get that there is a demand for a burst heal. But does anyone know what a nb’s burst heal is? I have vigor slotted because all of my nb class heals feel a bit weak or slow.

I am truly asking for advice here.

Ren_TheRedFox

@BlueRaven Healthy offering is the nb burst heal ... it doesn't only heal but also gives minor mending which increases your healing done by 8% which is awesome

fizzylu

BlueRaven wrote: »

I am not arguing your point, I get that there is a demand for a burst heal. But does anyone know what a nb’s burst heal is? I have vigor slotted because all of my nb class heals feel a bit weak or slow.

I am truly asking for advice here.

You're also the one class that gets on the go invisibility and the ability to evade projectile attacks with the click of a button instead. Which is arguably better.

BlueRaven

fizzylu wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I am not arguing your point, I get that there is a demand for a burst heal. But does anyone know what a nb’s burst heal is? I have vigor slotted because all of my nb class heals feel a bit weak or slow.

I am truly asking for advice here.

You're also the one class that gets on the go invisibility and the ability to evade projectile attacks with the click of a button instead. Which is arguably better.

Invisibility does not work that great in trials.

fizzylu

@BlueRaven
You asked what would make it different and I told you. What idea was written is not my idea, I simply was answering your question since I can't figure out why you're always trying to invalidate peoples feedback or desires for change.
And for trials - Ren_TheRedFox answered your question, but I'll expand on it. Unlike other classes, nb's have an entire toolkit that consists of ways to apply HOTs to yourself. Dark cloak, refreshing path, soul shred and it's morphs, strife and it's morphs, siphoning strikes and it's morphs.... AND, surprise; the malevolent offering morphs are a burst heal with a slight drawback, but can even be cheaper than other classes burst heals. Sap essence can even be a decent one if there's enough targets.

BlueRaven

fizzylu wrote: »

@BlueRaven
You asked what would make it different and I told you. What idea was written is not my idea, I simply was answering your question since I can't figure out why you're always trying to invalidate peoples feedback or desires for change.
And for trials - Ren_TheRedFox answered your question, but I'll expand on it. Unlike other classes, nb's have an entire toolkit that consists of ways to apply HOTs to yourself. Dark cloak, refreshing path, soul shred and it's morphs, strife and it's morphs, siphoning strikes and it's morphs.... AND, surprise; the malevolent offering morphs are a burst heal with a slight drawback, but can even be cheaper than other classes burst heals. Sap essence can even be a decent one if there's enough targets.

???

I was not asking about hots, I was asking about burst heals.

Also, “malevolent offering”?

“Sacrifice your essence, healing an ally in front of you for 3486 Health but draining 1080 of your own Health over 3 seconds” that heal?

Even with the morphs, they cost my character health, that is not a “slight drawback”. 😂 That is the opposite of a burst heal.

I am looking to keep my character alive in an emergency at low health, not kill them.

And here is the nb burst heal that was offered

Healthy offering

Pour out your lifesblood and channel the arcane, healing yourself or an ally in front of you for 3600 Health, while draining 1080 Health from yourself over 3 seconds. After casting, gain Minor Mending for 10 seconds, increasing your healing done by 8%.
New effect
Grants you Minor Mending after casting, increasing your healing done.

At this point I would take that matriarch. It’s a heal that does not cost my character health and heals me immediately, not giving me the promise of future healing. And it does damage! So it’s not just a skill not doing anything when it’s not needed for a burst heal.
The “slight drawback” is that it could be killed. Big deal.

Ren_TheRedFox

@BlueRaven ok yeah Health Offering takes away 1k health but that's over 3 seconds and that's nothing for a healer ... I'm spamming that skill if one of my allies is in danger even if my health is low cause you can easily overheal that damage buy standing in a healing AoE... and about the matriarch ... yes the pet is strong and has great healing but once it's down you're pretty much down ... people might say yeah you can streak away etc but streak costs magicka also summoning the pet which takes about 2 seconds .... in that time you're going to get killed unless you spam BoR which drains a lot of magicka too

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Sorc pets are outdated and need reworked. Full Stop.

Gargath

Parrots are most annoying part of ESO, flapping in my face everywhere, when I see someone bringing it to bank area my irritation grows with every flap.
Maybe replace it with a netch, it hovers over ground with no sound and wings. Good instant solution.

Ren_TheRedFox

@Gargath totally agree with that ... Replacing it with some sort of betty netch sized matriarch which can't be killed would fix the flapping issue for sure

BlueRaven

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

@BlueRaven ok yeah Health Offering takes away 1k health but that's over 3 seconds and that's nothing for a healer ... I'm spamming that skill if one of my allies is in danger even if my health is low cause you can easily overheal that damage buy standing in a healing AoE... and about the matriarch ... yes the pet is strong and has great healing but once it's down you're pretty much down ... people might say yeah you can streak away etc but streak costs magicka also summoning the pet which takes about 2 seconds .... in that time you're going to get killed unless you spam BoR which drains a lot of magicka too

Right if I was a healer spamming heals, maybe that will offset it? But I am a dps, with a bow.

When fire starts dropping everywhere and everyone is running around, many times I am on the edge of death. DKs have a nice self heal, templars have it (of course), and yeah the sorc pet can be a bit annoying if it died. But other than the invisibility, nbs are kinda meh in their abilities. When you said “Other classes have their burst healing all the time”, I honestly thought I missed something.

I use vigor because I did not see anything else that’s any good. Right now my trial build, on two bars, I only have refreshing path slotted in case I need a speedy escape, other wise I am just using weapon and guild abilities, no class abilities besides the one.

It seems zos turned nbs into a pvp focused class, but I was already too deep into it to change.

But this is about the sorc matriarch. Sorry did not mean to distract.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

I love sorc healer for pvp.

I don't really have a problem with the Matriarch heal. It makes how this build heals unique. Yes, it can be taken down, but that's time spent attacking your Matriarch and not you, and you're not going to be standing around while someone bursts down your twilight. If they're doing that, you could be applying heavy dot pressure or setting up your deadly sorc burst.

Unless they've changed things drastically since I used to solo pvp, you can also heal your pet and shield them, and line of sight forever. I know that if your pet is taken down you can be in trouble due to the summoning time, but you can take advantage of sorc's great mobility to get away and recast it.

No offense but this is wrong. I kill the Matriarch pet in about 2 seconds and that's if I'm being lazy. At the very top of Battlegrounds, the Matriarch pet and Sorcs in general are kill on sight. The pet dies so fast that the Sorc has no opportunity to run away because by the time they realize their pet is dying and/or dead, I'm already attacking the Sorc and they're at half health. OP knows what I'm talking about.

Fair enough. It used to be that way, but I concede that its been long enough that my experience might no longer be relevant, and leave it for others to discuss.

Sorry if I came across as harsh. What you've experienced is applicable and relevant for 90% of PvPers out there. It will be difficult for many players to kill the Matriarch pet, interrupt the summon (if they even know how to do that), and then kill the Sorc. My reply was mostly based on the very high end of Battlegrounds. So I think your feedback is valid and relevant.

Rowjoh

fizzylu wrote: »

Rowjoh wrote: »

So why run this pet when there are clear limitations and flaws and is clearly not BIS ? Thats the point.

Instead of clamouring for a re-work, maybe adjusting the build/skill combo to have a stronger set-up is the way to go.

I love it when I see a player running the Matriach as they're pretty easy to defeat tbh. Like I said, there are plenty of sorx running around Cyrodiil/IC/Battlegrounds either NOT running pets or just running the 'Familiar', with much better survivability

You're oversimplifying the problem. Zenimax has been pushing pets to be the best way for sorcerer's to build their class for a while now, it's even the easiest way for them to get use out of all of their class passives, and their only actual self heal IS a pet (unless you count dark exchange, which ALSO has a long animation). That's without me even mentioning the fact that it takes two whole slots. Other classes 100% have viable heals, don't need to "adjust" to have some decent way to heal, nor have to sacrifice two slots to use one of their main class abilities. So why is it "clamoring" or unreasonable to ask for them to make it just as viable as these other classes self heals? Which, by the way, wouldn't even be hard to do. Or are you against this because then you couldn't get some easy kills by taking out matriarch's with 2-3 hits first?

I've given a simple solution

and Nightblade doesn't have a burst heal (I main a Nightblade btw but have mained a sorc before, with and without pets).

I'm not against anything, and I've already stated that I find sorcs with matriachs profitable targets, namely for reasons other posters here have already articulated throughout this thread.

DrNukenstein

jaysins

Sorc pets are annoying and frustrating and should at least have a morph that is a skill that takes one bar spot and the pet pops up, instantly casts or does something, and then goes away or at least something along those lines.

Also, this is from a pvp perspective, but burst healing needs an overall reduction and sorc should be the example of how to do it right imo. I think dark deal having a delay and being able to be interupted is healthier overall for the game and offers counterplay vs classes being to hold down block for God knows how long while spamming burst heals. Staying alive is too easy currently if you play defensively and sorcs should be a bit harder to heal than other classes due to their mobility, but the gap has become too large.

Jacozilla

@ OP - in a word, no.

In two, hell no.

fizzylu

BlueRaven wrote: »

???

I was not asking about hots, I was asking about burst heals.

No, what you asked how what the OP described would be different than vigor was what I originally replied to and answered.
And that drawback is not that severe when your class constantly offers HOTs that can cancel out the health cost. Even vigor could do this for you.

Rowjoh wrote: »

and Nightblade doesn't have a burst heal (I main a Nightblade btw but have mained a sorc before, with and without pets).

Nightblade's do have a burst heal, people here just seem to not use it nor know of it's existence.


This does the exact same amount of healing as other class burst heals, can even provide a buff to increase healing from HOTs that can easily cancel out the drawback, AND even the alternative that is quite a bit cheaper than things like matriarch's active ability.

BlueRaven

fizzylu wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

???

I was not asking about hots, I was asking about burst heals.

No, what you asked how what the OP described would be different than vigor was what I originally replied to and answered.
And that drawback is not that severe when your class constantly offers HOTs that can cancel out the health cost. Even vigor could do this for you.

Rowjoh wrote: »

and Nightblade doesn't have a burst heal (I main a Nightblade btw but have mained a sorc before, with and without pets).

Nightblade's do have a burst heal, people here just seem to not use it nor know of it's existence.


This does the exact same amount of healing as other class burst heals, can even provide a buff to increase healing from HOTs that can easily cancel out the drawback, AND even the alternative that is quite a bit cheaper than things like matriarch's active ability.

I was asking Ren the firefox the question, not you. All I asked was how with this change it is different to Vigor. You answered it was magika not stamina, (fine I guess), and that it is a class ability (I guess if that is important as well, then fine).

Then they mentioned that all classes have a burst heal. As someone who plays a nb as well as another poster, this was news to us. So I politely asked what that heal was. And made the point that I was in no way putting down the sorcs problem. I was actually curious what the nbs heal was.

Then you said I have invisibilty, like that is at all relevant to what a burst heal is.

THEN you told me I have hots, even after I asked specifically about a burst heal.

And then you double down on malevolent offering a heal that is primarily directed at other people and costs ME health.

That is not the type of heal I need. In fact that is the worst type of heal I can think of. But you brushed that off as "a slight drawback" I guess someone having to run over and res me in a boss fight, after I heal another person (and not myself), or the spell itself kills me, could be described as that lol.

No one uses malevolent offering, why? Read the spell description you linked. Thats why.

Dr_Con

Sorc heal with matriarch should happen whenever the sorc casts the spell, whenever the matriarch spawns, and whenever the bird dies.

Same with Clannfear. These things have no HP to speak of, and assuming they are the only daedric summoning skill on the bar it will also remove 8% of their max hp.

(also malevolent offering not being a burst heal argument is the same as saying resistant flesh isn't a burst heal)

fizzylu

@BlueRaven
Who cares who answered? This is a public forum and clearly my answer sufficed since the other person didn't add anything onto it. Then I simply expanded upon what Ren said about the burst heal with the invisibility; which is also a very viable form of defense and sustain. I touched upon the HOTs first since they literally negate the drawback of the burst heal. Taking 800-1000 damage over 2-3 seconds is nothing with even one HOT going. Even ONE light attack with siphoning strikes active cancels it out. And every nightblade magicka player I know runs malevolent offering with no issue so. Nightblade's who don't instead stack those HOTs I mentioned, which is another reason why they are very reasonable to mention in regard to your question.
Also you say you weren't trying to invalidate the feedback and were just honestly curious about a class you play, yet you felt the need to edit the first part out of your previous post.

BlueRaven

fizzylu wrote: »

@BlueRaven
Who cares who answered? This is a public forum and clearly my answer sufficed since the other person didn't add anything onto it. Then I simply expanded upon what Ren said about the burst heal with the invisibility; which is also a very viable form of defense and sustain. I touched upon the HOTs first since they literally negate the drawback of the burst heal. Taking 800-1000 damage over 2-3 seconds is nothing with even one HOT going. Even ONE light attack with siphoning strikes active cancels it out. And every nightblade magicka player I know runs malevolent offering with no issue so. Nightblade's who don't instead stack those HOTs I mentioned, which is another reason why they are very reasonable to mention in regard to your question.
Also you say you weren't trying to invalidate the feedback and were just honestly curious about a class you play, yet you felt the need to edit the first part out of your previous post.

I deleted that right away because it was a mistake, and I did it long before anyone answered. It was going to be the start of something longer and I abandoned it. Because it was going to be a distraction to this thread.

But I forgot to delete it. Then as I was responding to your non answer about invisibility it was still there. So I got rid of it.

Me and the op had an amicable back and forth about that nb heal. (Perhaps you should read it.) And they understood how that heal is not any good for me, and we moved on.

Let me explain it clearly because you seem driven to not understand what I was asking at all

Invisibility is not a burst heal

A “hot” is not a burst heal.

A heal that damages my character, that causes my health to go down, not up, Is not a burst heal.

Stop dragging me into this conversation. I don’t want to be a distraction to it as it seems important for pvp sorc survivability.

I wanted to know how this change was different than vigor. They are similar but slightly different. (Answered)

And I wanted to know what the nb burst heal was. Turns out they don’t have one. (Answered.)

Can we stop distracting this thread now?

Ren_TheRedFox

@BlueRaven just to make it clear ..... a burst heal is a healing ability that will restore a huge amount of health withing 2-3 seconds which healthy offering definitely is. I also have a nightblade healer and I spam healthy offering 3-4 times in a row with less than 5% health to heal myself up to 100% again .... the health cost of healthy offering is very low and gets outhealed by the burst but however .... this thread is not about healthy offering ... it's about sorcerers like you said before and I'm glad that I'm not the only person who thinks that the matriarch needs a change.

BlueRaven

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

@BlueRaven just to make it clear ..... a burst heal is a healing ability that will restore a huge amount of health withing 2-3 seconds which healthy offering definitely is. I also have a nightblade healer and I spam healthy offering 3-4 times in a row with less than 5% health to heal myself up to 100% again .... the health cost of healthy offering is very low and gets outhealed by the burst but however .... this thread is not about healthy offering ... it's about sorcerers like you said before and I'm glad that I'm not the only person who thinks that the matriarch needs a change.

I have one slot per bar for a heal.

Am I really going to slot something that damages me as my emergency burst heal?

Is spamming an ability multiple times to be effective a burst heal?

Vigor I hit once.

If I have the luxury of not being that low in health, refreshing path I can cast once. (And that spell is an aoe hot. Not that great for the trial I was in tonight so I took it out.)

Siphoning strikes is situational. I don’t always have a target to shoot at. So it does not make the cut of being on the bar.

You get the idea.

I wish I could have that matriarch. I really do. A heal that actually does something besides take up a slot when I am not in a low health situation.

Ah well.

Edit: But this is all a distraction to your thread. Please stop pulling me back in.

fizzylu

BlueRaven wrote: »

Can we stop distracting this thread now?

You are the one doing that by being bothered about me answering questions and expanding upon some answers with some alternative forms of defense that the class has that are definitely viable. Like how is me mentioning invisibility somehow stepping on your toes, really? You said your heals were weak so I assumed you were having trouble staying alive and I was just pointing out that there are many ways for nightblade's to do this even besides their one burst heal, that you somehow think is not viable simply because it does a little damage despite the class having multiple ways to to naturally cancel this out. But yeah, I'll stop; I've already made my point.

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

this thread is not about healthy offering ... it's about sorcerers like you said before and I'm glad that I'm not the only person who thinks that the matriarch needs a change.

And yeah, it does need a change. I'd even just be happy with it having more health at this point. It can easily be killed even by mobs that it for some reason pulls aggro from in things like world boss fights. Even better would not be having to use a pet at all for my class heal haha but apparently that's asking for too much.

Turtle_Bot

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ren_TheRedFox wrote: »

@BlueRaven just to make it clear ..... a burst heal is a healing ability that will restore a huge amount of health withing 2-3 seconds which healthy offering definitely is. I also have a nightblade healer and I spam healthy offering 3-4 times in a row with less than 5% health to heal myself up to 100% again .... the health cost of healthy offering is very low and gets outhealed by the burst but however .... this thread is not about healthy offering ... it's about sorcerers like you said before and I'm glad that I'm not the only person who thinks that the matriarch needs a change.

I have one slot per bar for a heal.

Am I really going to slot something that damages me as my emergency burst heal?

Is spamming an ability multiple times to be effective a burst heal?

Vigor I hit once.

If I have the luxury of not being that low in health, refreshing path I can cast once. (And that spell is an aoe hot. Not that great for the trial I was in tonight so I took it out.)

Siphoning strikes is situational. I don’t always have a target to shoot at. So it does not make the cut of being on the bar.

You get the idea.

I wish I could have that matriarch. I really do. A heal that actually does something besides take up a slot when I am not in a low health situation.

Ah well.

Edit: But this is all a distraction to your thread. Please stop pulling me back in.

This is healthy offering with new moon acolyte and elemental catalyst equipped, and standard starting buffs for groups (major + minor brutality, major + minor courage and minor mending) active. That's a 17k heal tooltip on what is essentially a 2+ year old build with basic group buffs and the "cost" to your health is 1k over 3 seconds or 300 health per second which is very easily mitigated by a single vigor tick. I'd gladly take that "trade off" for a reliable instant cast burst heal that only takes up 1 bar spot, 17k in pve, 8k+ in pvp (and this is all before factoring in crits)


This is the tooltip for the healing morph of soul tether with that same build, that's nearly 45k over 4 seconds + 16k instant heal for over 60k heal over 4 seconds..... Bolstering darkness tooltips for 43k over 4 seconds as well.


and here's the tooltip for vigor on same build (nearly 26k over 5 seconds is a lot of healing)

refreshing path also ticks for 2k per second (not even every 2 seconds, its every second).

NB has insane heals and its burst heal in the offering skill is up there among the best in the game, even when just building for stats, with a suboptimal bar layout and bare minimum buffs active.

EDIT: but yes, we are here to discuss matriarch, but hopefully these tooltips show that NB healing is definitely not lacking, especially for burst healing capabilities.

BlueRaven

I have asked, several times now, not to be pulled back into this thread. At what point is this harassment?

This is my final post in this thread.

fizzylu wrote: »

You are the one doing that by being bothered about me answering questions and expanding upon some answers with some alternative forms of defense that the class has that are definitely viable. Like how is me mentioning invisibility somehow stepping on your toes, really? You said your heals were weak so I assumed you were having trouble staying alive and I was just pointing out that there are many ways for nightblade's to do this even besides their one burst heal, that you somehow think is not viable simply because it does a little damage despite the class having multiple ways to to naturally cancel this out. But yeah, I'll stop; I've already made my point.

I am guessing at this point that you have not read anything beyond the first sentence or two of my responses, but here goes anyway.

Invisibility is not a burst heal.

No one is crafting invisibility potions for trials. No one.

Stam and health potions? Yes. Mag and health? Sure. Tri stat? In a pinch. But no one at 3% health is saying “better pop my invisibility, that will save me” in a trial. There are far too many aoes, non dispellable ticks, and soaks, to begin with and that is just the tip of the iceberg. I need something that gets my health from close to zero, to close to full asap.

A type of burst heal so to speak.

A heal that requires “another heal” to compensate for its flaws is not helpful, nor is that a burst heal. At this point (if you read any of my posts) you should know that.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Snip

Thank you. It seems you put a lot of effort into this response and I respect that. I know you are trying to help, but there are many flaws and assumptions in your response.

First I am assuming you think I am a mag blade but I have stated many times now I use a bow. I am not aware of any magnb bow builds, (perhaps there is some), but moving on...

“ … the "cost" to your health is 1k over 3 seconds or 300 health per second which is very easily mitigated by a single vigor tick.”

A healing spell that requires a secondary healing spell to compensate is not a burst heal. And yes, I have vigor loaded. I was looking for the nb “vigor” equivalent of a burst heal. But there does not appear to be one.

Soul siphon (like the siphoning strikes I mentioned in the very post you responded to) requires a target in range. Which is not always the case. (And does it work on immune targets? Wait don’t answer that.) when I need a heal, i need it immediately in all situations. Not in some (or even most) situations.

And you posted vigor as a healing spell. Yes I am aware of it. But it is not a unique nb healing spell, it’s a healing sell from the “alliance war” section. The initial question of a nb burst heal was triggered from an offhand comment that stated all classes have a burst heal. I see now that they meant most classes, or classes in general, have burst heals. I was wondering what the nb healing equivalent one was.

I was linked healing spells that actually cause my character to lose health, not gain it, and then they added that I could use other healing spells to compensate for that. But I have one slot for any healing spell. If you had the choice between vigor or healthy offerings for that one healing slot, the answer is pretty clear it would be vigor.

And yes I would trade vigor in that one slot, for a matriarch if I could.

Edit: I see now I got soul siphon (an ultimate) and swallow soul mixed up due to the similar names. In any case I need my ultimate for burst damage, not a heal.

Ksariyu

Skipping the side discussions to say no. Sorc pets are the only unique thing about the class. If they want to change a Dark Deal morph to be an AoE heal, go for it, but stop asking for stuff to be changed to be like other classes. Want to play like a NB/Warden/Necro/whatever else? Go play that.

When it comes to the Daedric Summoning line, there should be way more emphasis on the summoning part. The pets should be the focus of a build that revolves around this line (And ZoS should provide better options to Sorcs who want to ignore this line). Better ways to control and support your summons should be the solution to your problem, not just stripping them down to be basic skills like everything else.