Heavy Weapons 2h passive, which is best?

Rageypoo

I'm hunting for a Maelstrom weapon and won a battle axe, and noticed the passive gives you 6% crit effectiveness. How well does this translate to damage for a DPS between the mace and the greatsword? I'd love to hear what you guys think or if there is some raw data I could reference would be really helpful.

virtus753

12% crit damage at max rank, which counts towards the 125% crit damage cap. Since weapon damage has no cap, that is usually preferable in group situations, where medium armor, kilt, class passives, fighting finesse, backstabber, elemental catalyst, minor brittle, and major brittle all get added to the base 50% crit damage.

Same issue with pen - in PvE the most armor any mob has is 18,200, which quickly gets reduced by major breach (5948), minor breach (2974), crusher (infused 2-handed is 2108), light armor, and sets like tremorscale, crimson oath, and alkosh.

Rageypoo

So...greatsword for group play, axe/mace for solo?

fred4

I couldn't say which is best in terms of pure damage, but I'll point out a few tangents not to overlook:

• Greatswords increase your self-healing with Rally and should be buffed by DK (Minor Brutality) and templar (Minor Sorcery) passives. Kind of a middle of the road option that impacts all aspects of your playstyle with no caps and no drawbacks, but may not be best in any given situation.
• Maces are typically preferred in PvP (on the front bar). They may also outperform swords in solo PvE play, although with the minor buffs from the above-mentioned classes I'm not sure.
• Crit Rush / Stampede always crits. An axe may just be the best weapon if it's on the back bar and "there isn't much else going on" on your back bar, for example if you are on a (solo) build that has buff skills or heals rather than a lot of damage skills on the back bar. It could also be the best option for PvP. A simple Crit Rush spamming build won't win you any prizes, but does net you consistent Crit Surge healing on a stamsorc and maximum damage from the axe.

You are using this on the back bar in PvE, right? The point of using the gap closer in PvE is to use Stampede, leave that AOE on the ground and have your Infused back bar enchant reactivated from it every 5 seconds. I believe the Maelstrom DOT has been nerfed and isn't particularly strong anymore. However it makes sense to use that weapon, if you have nothing else to slot on the back bar. I probably wouldn't front bar this. Maybe in PvP, but there's got to be better options.

fred4

I want to add that, many moons ago, someone told me the crossover point where the Shadow mundus starts to beat the Thief is around 70% crit. Whether that's still true, I don't know. Whether that means axes come good for average DPS at the same number, I don't know.

In PvP you might use an axe for a crit build, because you have high crit, because you're relying on guaranteed crits from certain skills, or because you're gambling on a random succession of crits.

Zodiarkslayer

I'd say it depends on much more than the passives alone. Even if you only talk about a Maelstrom backbar weapon.
Like @virtus753 and @fred4 stated before, it is dependend on where you are with your caps. But where you are is a question of Race, Class, Gear, Enchants and of course the level of group support. 4man PuGs and Trials are also different.

For Example, playing a Stam Sorc on a Khajiit is different to playing Stam Sorc on a Dark Elf.
While the Sorcerer Class lacks inherent crit damage, it is generally usefull for SOLOing to up that with being a Khajiit and consequently a 2H Sword is the better option. But if you play a Dark Elf, you are lacking in the Crit deparment, again, an 2H Axe is a better choice. Even more so since Dark Elf racial passives give Weapon Damage, already.
However both fall shy of the 2H Mace in SOLO, because penetration is much harder to come by, when you are alone and your 4th or 5th line of your frontbar set contains a sizable portion of your penetration value.

I guess, you should use what you have first. The total difference in a long Boss fight is really low.

virtus753

fred4 wrote: »

I want to add that, many moons ago, someone told me the crossover point where the Shadow mundus starts to beat the Thief is around 70% crit. Whether that's still true, I don't know. Whether that means axes come good for average DPS at the same number, I don't know.

Many moons ago I think that might have been decent advice, as there was no crit damage cap up until the other year.

Over those past couple of years the devs have taken a two-pronged approach to lowering damage via crits: they capped crit damage at a flat value and then took away or significantly lowered sources of crit chance, such as set bonus values and CP. (Kilt and Mora’s Whispers are notable exceptions - and are mythics, which I think is not coincidental.) As a result, sources of crit chance have become universally more valuable than before, since it is harder to get higher crit chance without sacrifices, while sources of crit damage now need to be evaluated more carefully because they are more prevalent and could end up being superfluous. That’s true in any content, although particularly in trials.

70% or so might still serve as a rough guideline, though the exact tipping point has always depended on both crit damage and crit chance, as they get multiplied together to produce the average damage expected from crit hits. As with other values, the more of something you already have, the less relatively valuable adding more of that stat becomes, even without hitting cap. Shadow will do more for you relatively speaking if you only have the base 50% crit damage than it would if you already had 100%. Same with Thief, as adding that extra crit chance helps more (again, relatively speaking) if your crit chance is low than if it is already high. Similarly, adding 9.96% crit chance when your crit damage is only 50% is not as impactful as adding that same 9.96% chance if you’re above 100% crit damage. And conversely, improving crit damage when you have a low crit chance is not as useful as improving crit damage with a higher crit chance. They are interdependent, so care has to be taken to account for stats given the situation, whether PvE (solo, 4-person, 12-person) or PvP (again solo or group).

In 4-person content you are certainly not as likely to hit crit damage cap, but there you can more efficiently supplement your personal crit damage through the CP stars Backstabber and Fighting Finesse, which didn’t exist in the original CP system. You can also supplement penetration now with Force of Nature. But there is no CP source of critical chance outside of the relatively tiny 1.4% from the passive Precision. That’s part of why Thief and daggers tend to dominate PvE metas - even 4-person dungeon setups, where you often have to supplement the more limited group (de)buffs with your own crit damage and pen. You can’t slot a CP star for extra crit chance like you can with crit damage and pen, so other sources of crit chance become more desirable as a result.

As mentioned above, solo is really the place where you will see pen and crit damage become more competitive options, as without the basic group (de)buffs like Major Force, Brittle, Crusher, and Major Breach, medium armor users typically lack pen towards the 18.2k cap (even with Force of Nature) and light armor users (especially on non-crit classes) lack crit damage. Race also plays a role, also as mentioned.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

This thread has been moved to the Players Helping Players section, as it is better suited there.

Thank you for your understanding.

fred4

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

Greetings,

This thread has been moved to the Players Helping Players section, as it is better suited there.

Thank you for your understanding.

And, just like that, you kill another thread. Seriously, do you have to do this? Few people go to that forum. Responses are minimal. Feedback is minimal. I post in it, but lately I haven't gotten any Agrees, Insightfuls, or Awesomes on my detailed technical posts. I'm not clamouring for those, but it's nice to see that one's post has at least been read by someone.

This particular thread is a fairly general combat related question. It's IMO just as at home in one of the combat forums as it is in Players Helping Players. It would generate more discussion in the former.

EDIT: To be fair I just got some (nice) feedback on a thread in this forum that I had in mind. Players Helping Players runs at a snail's pace all the same. Not a very lively forum. What exactly is your rationale?

Rageypoo

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

Greetings,

This thread has been moved to the Players Helping Players section, as it is better suited there.

Thank you for your understanding.

fred4 wrote: »

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

Greetings,

This thread has been moved to the Players Helping Players section, as it is better suited there.

Thank you for your understanding.

And, just like that, you kill another thread. Seriously, do you have to do this? Few people go to that forum. Responses are minimal. Feedback is minimal. I post in it, but lately I haven't gotten any Agrees, Insightfuls, or Awesomes on my detailed technical posts. I'm not clamouring for those, but it's nice to see that one's post has at least been read by someone.

This particular thread is a fairly general combat related question. It's IMO just as at home in one of the combat forums as it is in Players Helping Players. It would generate more discussion in the former.

EDIT: To be fair I just got some (nice) feedback on a thread in this forum that I had in mind. Players Helping Players runs at a snail's pace all the same. Not a very lively forum. What exactly is your rationale?

I completely agree, please do not move my thread to that place, I was hoping for a legitimate discussion.

Necrotech_Master

i personally prefer running a 2h mace on my stam dps toon, in a trial this gives me similar/on par penetration to what a light armor build has which makes it easier to get to the point your ignoring armor

in most instances when im running trials, in the groups im with i usually have an effective pen of 16-18k