Deadric summoning should be made a criminal offense

Fantalior

Deadric summoning should be made a criminal offense

I wish everyone a healthy new year 2023,

As the title suggests, I would be happy if 2023 Deadric summoning were finally prosecuted and classified as a criminal offence. Everything else speaks against the long history of Tamriel. Especially since the use of other abilities that only have something to do with the Deadra, such as vampire or werewolf transformations, are already punished.
Necromancy is also despised by most good citizens. But the summoning of the sorcerers clearly shows that deadrish powers are being pacted here. Twilight Wings and Scamps follow casters as loyal servants, this should be forbidden it is against the will of these creatures. Who can say with which princes these magicians get involved. It could be the main antagonist Molag Bal, whose daughter was also a Twilight Wing. how do you see it?

And then there is another fact that speaks against legal summoning. I think I've seen a scamp stealing before , I mean it's not that bad. Of course, Tamriel's traders plan losses and reflect them on the prices customers pay. And you quickly ask yourself what a stupid skamp with a soul stone wants to gnaw on, that doesn't make any sense. Then the scales fell from my eyes, because there is a scamp in the dragon star arena who sells the stuff and presumably other stolen goods... they would be capable of doing so.That's organized crime and definitely a ring of hairy little dealers! The point is surely these creatures pay no taxes whatsoever on "their" goods and this is robbery of the kingdom!!! I say no mercy to Skampen's staples!!! b)

spartaxoxo

Summoning Daedra is a normal part of society during this time period. Battlemages protect their homeland using summons during the war effort. And the Mage's Guild practices and uses summons in day to day tasks. They are bound to their summoners and generally don't cause huge problems that weren't instigated by the summoner themselves.

Therefore, Tamriel's view of summoning Daedra is that it depends on what you do with the Daedra that determines it's legality.

The denizens of Tamriel also don't view Daedra as beings worthy of protection from any harm caused to them by summoning, except those who live on the fringes of society and don't have say in law e.g. cultists.

Necromancy, Vampirism, and Werewolf affliction meanwhile necessitate those afflicted draw their power from living and dead people (as opposed to Daedra). The things that they do that profane or harm all people living or dead are illegal, while things that don't are not.

Syldras

Fantalior wrote: »

But the summoning of the sorcerers clearly shows that deadrish powers are being pacted here. (...) Who can say with which princes these magicians get involved.

Summoning lesser Daedra does not happen by making a pact with Daedric Princes. It's not a bargain.

Freelancer_ESO

I think you'd ram into the issue that you'd have too much regional/circumstantial variation in what was permitted for implementing it to really be worth the effort.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Summoning Daedra is a normal part of society during this time period. Battlemages protect their homeland using summons during the war effort. And the Mage's Guild practices and uses summons in day to day tasks. They are bound to their summoners and generally don't cause huge problems that weren't instigated by the summoner themselves.

Therefore, Tamriel's view of summoning Daedra is that it depends on what you do with the Daedra that determines it's legality.

The denizens of Tamriel also don't view Daedra as beings worthy of protection from any harm caused to them by summoning, except those who live on the fringes of society and don't have say in law e.g. cultists.

Necromancy, Vampirism, and Werewolf affliction meanwhile necessitate those afflicted draw their power from living and dead people (as opposed to Daedra). The things that they do that profane or harm all people living or dead are illegal, while things that don't are not.

I think normal might be pushing it a fair bit in some areas.

Auridon Story Spoiler:

"I can't believe—that little fool! With the Queen traveling the countryside! Do you have any idea what could happen if word that the Grove trucks with Daedra gets out?
If this is true, Merormo must die."

Plus, Daedra aren't exactly known for being easy to deal with. Even in areas that approve of it, the approval may not extend to people that are not trusted.

spartaxoxo

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

I think you'd ram into the issue that you'd have too much regional/circumstantial variation in what was permitted for implementing it to really be worth the effort.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Summoning Daedra is a normal part of society during this time period. Battlemages protect their homeland using summons during the war effort. And the Mage's Guild practices and uses summons in day to day tasks. They are bound to their summoners and generally don't cause huge problems that weren't instigated by the summoner themselves.

Therefore, Tamriel's view of summoning Daedra is that it depends on what you do with the Daedra that determines it's legality.

The denizens of Tamriel also don't view Daedra as beings worthy of protection from any harm caused to them by summoning, except those who live on the fringes of society and don't have say in law e.g. cultists.

Necromancy, Vampirism, and Werewolf affliction meanwhile necessitate those afflicted draw their power from living and dead people (as opposed to Daedra). The things that they do that profane or harm all people living or dead are illegal, while things that don't are not.

I think normal might be pushing it a fair bit in some areas.

Auridon Story Spoiler:

"I can't believe—that little fool! With the Queen traveling the countryside! Do you have any idea what could happen if word that the Grove trucks with Daedra gets out?
If this is true, Merormo must die."

Plus, Daedra aren't exactly known for being easy to deal with. Even in areas that approve of it, the approval may not extend to people that are not trusted.

More like not uncommon then. There are lesser Daedra doing menial tasks in some areas and there are also powerful mages that are well known to have used them in war. And mostly nobody trips unless things get out of control.

DMuehlhausen

But why. It's a widely accepted and even encouraged practice in Tamriel.

VaranisArano

The long history of Tamriel (i.e. every other TES game) goes to show that daedra summoning is NOT a criminal offense.

I mean, in the middle of a literal Daedric Invasion with the hordes of Oblivion pouring out across the lands, no one will bat an eye if you summon scamps, clannfear, daedroths, atronachs...or dremora lords, spider daedra and Xivilai.

^TES IV Oblivion, folks.

Let's not take that one line from Auridon as gospel, please, especially when it's directly contradicted in Summerset, since we see a merchant strolling around with their flame atronach pack animal. As far as gameplay and lore go, daedra summoning is normal enough to not be a criminal offense everywhere the player character goes. Even as far as Auridon goes, the Veiled Queen isn't executed because she bargained with daedra, but rather because she attempted regicide and got innocent people killed with her bargain.


(Okay, now that I've gotten the serious answer out of the way because of Poe's Law, I'm hoping this is as tongue-in-cheek as the bit about taxes makes me think it is. I suspect the scamp Kizna in Dragonstar Arena is a reference to the scamp Creeper from Morrowind who likewise bought all sorts of stuff from the Nerevarine.)

RisenEclipse

Daedric summoning has NEVER been illegal in Tamriel. In TES IV the Mage's Guild delivers a message to a captain of the city guard... by using a dremora. A DREMORA delivers a letter to a GUARD CAPTAIN. The guards response? Basically calling them lazy mages for sending a daedra. Didn't even flinch. This is during the Oblivion Crisis too.

The Mage's Guild of Chorrel openly summon and teach daedric Summoning. In fact most mages guild sects openly summon daedra. There a daedra with a collar on in one of the cities that you have to help I do believe in eso.

This idea that sorc chars should face penalties much like the necro is wrong. I play a necro as my main and I'm fine with the penalties. It makes it more immersive imo considering necromancy is more illegal then it is legal. While daedric summoning has never been.

But to clarify further, killing someone with a daedra is illegal. Not because you summoned a daedra, but because of the crime. The daedra was just the tool. Summoning and worshiping daedric princes is typically illegal. But that can change depending on province and prince being summoned. Most places see no good happening from summoning them, and because of the certain to happen catastrophe, have banned them.

Summoning lesser daedra is fine. Trying to summon Mehrunes Dagon in the middle of the city even if unsuccessful... not so fine...

Carcamongus

Come on, Daedra have feelings too.

BlueRaven

In Auridon there is a quest in which you find a lost deadric creature and lead it home to its high elven master in skywatch I believe. Even the high elves in general are fine with lesser deadra in this time period, and you have one Alinor loudly demonstrating against the princes.

Besides, will using the monster helm that summons a daedra be a crime too now?

Freelancer_ESO

VaranisArano wrote: »

The long history of Tamriel (i.e. every other TES game) goes to show that daedra summoning is NOT a criminal offense.

I mean, in the middle of a literal Daedric Invasion with the hordes of Oblivion pouring out across the lands, no one will bat an eye if you summon scamps, clannfear, daedroths, atronachs...or dremora lords, spider daedra and Xivilai.

^TES IV Oblivion, folks.

Let's not take that one line from Auridon as gospel, please, especially when it's directly contradicted in Summerset, since we see a merchant strolling around with their flame atronach pack animal. As far as gameplay and lore go, daedra summoning is normal enough to not be a criminal offense everywhere the player character goes. Even as far as Auridon goes, the Veiled Queen isn't executed because she bargained with daedra, but rather because she attempted regicide and got innocent people killed with her bargain.


(Okay, now that I've gotten the serious answer out of the way because of Poe's Law, I'm hoping this is as tongue-in-cheek as the bit about taxes makes me think it is. I suspect the scamp Kizna in Dragonstar Arena is a reference to the scamp Creeper from Morrowind who likewise bought all sorts of stuff from the Nerevarine.)

It's not the only line in the game about it not being a great thing.

Voranil: "Even if we defeat him, how do we contain him? He's already escaped once."
"If we could control Daedric magic perhaps this wouldn't have happened. What do you think, Cirion? Fight fire with fire?"
Cirion: "Stay your tongue, Voranil. You insult your lineage my even thinking it. Does the High Kindlord's fate appeal to you so?
We will go with my plan and divide his essence among us. He can't escape his prison if he's not whole."

I'd assume some of the level of permissibility we see is a reflection of gameplay convenience/awesomeness. Imagine if we got charged with a crime every time Serana decided to resurrect something in Skyrim.

For example, in Morrowind one of the best ways to get away with killing someone is taunting them into a fight.

However, that would likely be a violation of Imperial Law which considers Verbal Assault a crime. But, that doesn't lead to charges when you do it in practice because it would make taunting to be kinda pointless.

Imagine if you were in Tamriel would you really want to Daedric Summons around?

Even the "Great Mage" Vanus Galerion can't manage to avoid messing up his directions for his summon (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:I_was_Summoned_by_a_Mortal) do you really want to hope some random didn't mess up and allow the Daedra to behave in an unexpected manner or break free entirely.

I_killed_Vivec

It would be unusual to say the least for societies not to come up with certain rules concerning behaviour in towns, and particularly within buildings.

I'm sure that bringing your war bear into a bank, or having flappy daedra bothering customers in a tavern, or riding your horse around town when there are stables where you're supposed to leave your mounts, might raise a few eyebrows.

Likewise duelling would be frowned upon - can't go round letting loose arrows in crowded areas, and pick up that AoE when you've finished with it!

Clearly unpleasant things like drinking other people's blood, rending them with sharp claws, and playing with dead bodies, are likely to be outlawed on health and safety grounds.

Common sense really

Carcamongus

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

It would be unusual to say the least for societies not to come up with certain rules concerning behaviour in towns, and particularly within buildings.

I'm sure that bringing your war bear into a bank, or having flappy daedra bothering customers in a tavern, or riding your horse around town when there are stables where you're supposed to leave your mounts, might raise a few eyebrows.

Likewise duelling would be frowned upon - can't go round letting loose arrows in crowded areas, and pick up that AoE when you've finished with it!

Clearly unpleasant things like drinking other people's blood, rending them with sharp claws, and playing with dead bodies, are likely to be outlawed on health and safety grounds.

Common sense really

How about bringing your horse into the bank? I don't know, it felt unsanitary to me.

DinoZavr

Honestly, i m so tired of these flapping wings near bankers and traders.
Zeni easily could spray a strong magical combat pets repellent in the potentially crowded areas

Fantalior

Certainly, in other parts of the Elder Scrolls series, summoning is not forbidden, but possibly only because there was no legal system in the ESO form. In Oblivion, no one bothered about a summoned skeleton either. But isn't that irrelevant for the moment? These parts play after ESO and we are now at war as seen in the Imperial City with the Deadra too! The ban can only be temporary to prevent a treacherous skamp from sneaking in and exploding like a kamikaze.

Maybe some deadra are useful the atronachs might be an exception as they also reflect elemental powers. I have another question, what insults did the magician's storm atro yell again in the first ESO year, unfortunately I haven't played it yet .
But creatures like the twilight snares and scamps that are clearly working with Molag Bal should be shunned.

Fantalior

BlueRaven wrote: »

In Auridon there is a quest in which you find a lost deadric creature and lead it home to its high elven master in skywatch I believe. Even the high elves in general are fine with lesser deadra in this time period, and you have one Alinor loudly demonstrating against the princes.

Besides, will using the monster helm that summons a daedra be a crime too now?

It's more a question of the fashion police, but I do think he looks brutal. No, you can't arrest the helmet, it has no rights and the wearer shouldn't be prosecuted because the helmet carries out the summoning.

Fantalior

How about bringing your horse into the bank? I don't know, it felt unsanitary to me.

When I look at the horse in this picture it seems to be a kind of companion that compensates for disadvantages like a guide dog. The rider could be an orc and unable to read or do arithmetic, the horse is seen to have his nose in a book and read aloud what interest and trade fees the bank has levied.

Thecompton73

Maybe not make it illegal but make it a faux pas to have them out when interacting as far as merchants, traders and bankers are concerned so they won't deal with someone that has them summoned.
I'm sure they don't enjoy flappy wings in their face and scamps sniffing their crotch while they're trying to conduct business.

Syldras

Fantalior wrote: »

But creatures like the twilight snares and scamps that are clearly working with Molag Bal should be shunned.

Winged Twilights are most commonly associated with Azura, Scamps with Mehrunes Dagon. And again: Summoning Daedra does not mean making a bargain with a Daedric Prince.

spartaxoxo

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

I'd assume some of the level of permissibility we see is a reflection of gameplay convenience/awesomeness. Imagine if we got charged with a crime every time Serana decided to resurrect something in Skyrim.

Many people on Tamriel frown upon it. Many generally consider it to be a bad, stupid, and even offensive idea. But, it has also not been portrayed as illegal. And it's not uncommon to see good or mundane examples of Daedra summoning even among the NPCs. Plenty of examples of characters thinking things should be fine because they overestimate their own handle on things, and it's not hard to imagine they think that way because they see others use them for lesser tasks.

Also Vanus used one successfully in that story, a powerful one that wanted to fight him and hated fighting the worm cultists.

BretonMage

Is the OP a tongue-in-cheek post? Organised crime? Scamps pay no taxes? Is this just a veiled "I don't want flappy wings around me" post?

As others have said, it has never been illegal in TES, and to make it illegal would go against TES lore. I admit that it doesn't look to be the norm amongst commoners, but it is obviously accepted amongst magic practitioners. I assume it's a bit like firearms in our society, you need proper training to use it.

spartaxoxo

BretonMage wrote: »

Is the OP a tongue-in-cheek post? Organised crime? Scamps pay no taxes? Is this just a veiled "I don't want flappy wings around me" post?

I think there are two reasons most argue that it should be illegal.

1) They don't want flappy birds around them
2) They play a necromancer and they find it weird Sorcerors can summon but they get a bounty on their own skills. To be fair to them, Daedra do frequently cause problems in the Lore and their usage is detested by many characters. Others are often shown to regret interacting with them.

I think OP probably is category 2.

Regardless, I think gameplay wise there's a clear difference between a skill that can be up passively and one someone has to activate in town. Someone who afks after defeating a dungeon shouldn't find themselves dead and a bunch of their stuff run by the guard just because their combat skills are permanently on until they turn it off or an enemy turns it off for them.

And as stated earlier, Daedra summoning is not depicted as illegal in Tamriel.

BretonMage

spartaxoxo wrote: »

To be fair to them, Daedra do frequently cause problems in the Lore and their usage is detested by many characters. Others are often shown to regret interacting with them.

Yes, they are undoubtedly potentially dangerous tools, and one needs to have the skill to control the daedra. I remember lots of references in TESV to the dangers of daedric summoning.

I think the objection to necromancy is otoh a moral issue involving the idea of bodily and spiritual autonomy (and in many cultures, is tied to a respect for their ancestors), and this respect probably does not extend to the denizens of Oblivion.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Better Idea:

Criminal act abilities should not give a bounty at all instead it should just get NPCs to flee and give you insulting dialogue, it does not even make sense sometimes, imagine getting a bounty for using Vampire abilities then going to Fargrave only to be arrested by the guards for a bounty gained by something that is not considered illegal there.

That is not even mentioning the stupidity of how Bountiies can somehow cross over to Oblivion.

VaranisArano

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The long history of Tamriel (i.e. every other TES game) goes to show that daedra summoning is NOT a criminal offense.

I mean, in the middle of a literal Daedric Invasion with the hordes of Oblivion pouring out across the lands, no one will bat an eye if you summon scamps, clannfear, daedroths, atronachs...or dremora lords, spider daedra and Xivilai.

^TES IV Oblivion, folks.

Let's not take that one line from Auridon as gospel, please, especially when it's directly contradicted in Summerset, since we see a merchant strolling around with their flame atronach pack animal. As far as gameplay and lore go, daedra summoning is normal enough to not be a criminal offense everywhere the player character goes. Even as far as Auridon goes, the Veiled Queen isn't executed because she bargained with daedra, but rather because she attempted regicide and got innocent people killed with her bargain.


(Okay, now that I've gotten the serious answer out of the way because of Poe's Law, I'm hoping this is as tongue-in-cheek as the bit about taxes makes me think it is. I suspect the scamp Kizna in Dragonstar Arena is a reference to the scamp Creeper from Morrowind who likewise bought all sorts of stuff from the Nerevarine.)

It's not the only line in the game about it not being a great thing.

Voranil: "Even if we defeat him, how do we contain him? He's already escaped once."
"If we could control Daedric magic perhaps this wouldn't have happened. What do you think, Cirion? Fight fire with fire?"
Cirion: "Stay your tongue, Voranil. You insult your lineage my even thinking it. Does the High Kindlord's fate appeal to you so?
We will go with my plan and divide his essence among us. He can't escape his prison if he's not whole."

I'd assume some of the level of permissibility we see is a reflection of gameplay convenience/awesomeness. Imagine if we got charged with a crime every time Serana decided to resurrect something in Skyrim.

For example, in Morrowind one of the best ways to get away with killing someone is taunting them into a fight.

However, that would likely be a violation of Imperial Law which considers Verbal Assault a crime. But, that doesn't lead to charges when you do it in practice because it would make taunting to be kinda pointless.

Imagine if you were in Tamriel would you really want to Daedric Summons around?

Even the "Great Mage" Vanus Galerion can't manage to avoid messing up his directions for his summon (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:I_was_Summoned_by_a_Mortal) do you really want to hope some random didn't mess up and allow the Daedra to behave in an unexpected manner or break free entirely.

If I were a properly trained Conjurer, why not? We see NPCs who are trained Conjurers like Xocin from Blackwood and Teekeeus from the Chorrol Mages Guild, so it's not just a gameplay convention.

I disagree with the assertion that daedra summoning should be illegal. It's not illegal in any of the other TES games for NPCs or Players and it clearly isn't illegal in any widespread fashion in ESO.

That being said, lots of folk who bargain with Daedra for quick access to power rather than the slow, hard work of proper training do end up using their power for evil ends. Rilis is a prime example, and so the Keepers are wise to resist that temptation as long as they can.

Syldras

I can understand that winged twilights can get on people's nerves (and I think it's great that they introduced the option to make other player's summons and pets invisible in towns), but justifying a ban through lore just won't work.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Criminal act abilities should not give a bounty at all instead it should just get NPCs to flee and give you insulting dialogue,

All criminals acts or just necromancy and vampirism? If all, they could scrap the whole justice system altogether (plus it would be silly to see npcs screaming and running away when they see a low-level guy in rags stealing an apple, let alone you could just steal everything then, without any consequences).

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

it does not even make sense sometimes, imagine getting a bounty for using Vampire abilities then going to Fargrave only to be arrested by the guards for a bounty gained by something that is not considered illegal there. That is not even mentioning the stupidity of how Bountiies can somehow cross over to Oblivion.

Realistically, bounty should be limited to the zone the crime was committed in. I'm not sure they'd bother changing the system much, though.

captainwolfos

I mean... necromancy isn't exactly banned, either.

The other four Companions were fully aware that Mannimarco was a necromancer long before the Soul Burst. He isn't exactly subtle about it, either. Mannimarco just doesn't do subtlety.

And there's a throwaway line in the Vulkel Guard Mages Guild about not allowing necromancy in that particular classroom, for the smell alone.

Also... the dunmer. You can tell me all you want that ancestor summoning isn't necromancy, but you're literally summoning and talking to ghosts. Sometimes even going so far as using them as an incorporeal meat-shield.

SpacemanSpiff1

true

KilianDermoth

I think most already explained why daedric summoning is legal and it always was while on the other hand necromancy wasnt for the most part.

To add to what was alread said, here are some ingame lore books (there are for sure more):

From Vanus Galerion (founder of the Mages Guild), he explicitly says whats ok and what isnt: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Guild_Memo_on_Soul-Trapping

About the development of mages schools (you see in later games), where Conjuration (of Daedras) is an explicit (allowed) school while necromancy is explicitly forbidden: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Proposal:_Schools_of_Magic

Being summoned from the point of view of a daedra: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:I_was_Summoned_by_a_Mortal
And daedras are worth less than animals to man and mer, even worse they are the evil that has to be fought, so its good to hurt them as much as possible from the point of view of man and mer. Bending their will is basically even a good thing. Especially if you use them to fight the true evil like other daedras or like described in this book even necromancy.

Another book about necromancy and how it is seen as illegal, even it was half way legalized for a while, but we all know what happend then (planemeld, worm cult, chaos, war and so on): https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Order_of_the_Black_Worm

[Snip]:

Fantalior wrote: »

As the title suggests, I would be happy if 2023 Deadric summoning were finally prosecuted and classified as a criminal offence. Everything else speaks against the long history of Tamriel.

[Edited for baiting]

Syldras

captainwolfos wrote: »

Also... the dunmer. You can tell me all you want that ancestor summoning isn't necromancy, but you're literally summoning and talking to ghosts. Sometimes even going so far as using them as an incorporeal meat-shield.

There's a difference between a ghost and a decaying corpse. There's also a difference between forcing the dead to serve ( = necromancy) or asking ancestors for protection through prayer ( = ancestral veneration).

DMuehlhausen

Carcamongus wrote: »

Come on, Daedra have feelings too.

Yah but those poor fools I raise for fodder had feelings too