Necromancy: A Criminal Act

The_Titan_Tim

I’m unaware if this has been discussed before, but there are quite a few major issues plaguing the class of Necromancer right now, one of which that I would like to bring attention to, is the issue of acquiring bounties in towns for using your abilities in duels.

There is a massive dueling community on this game, while there are very few Necromancers at these popular spots, and only ever, off away from the main areas.

The idea that my Necromancer, the known Hero of Tamriel, Saviour of Nirn, defeater of Mannimarco and Molag Baal, would be persecuted by townspeople and guards for defending himself in a duel, is outrageous.

I understand why an unknown character using their Necromancy would scare people lore-wise, but when you’ve completed the main storyline, there should be an exception made.

Thieves Guild has a passive called
Veil of Shadows that decreases your detection radius of criminal acts and it helps a little bit, but it is nowhere near enough.

This same problem plagues Werewolves and Vampires, and if it could be removed conditionally, it would be an incredible change.

AD_ThisIsTheWay

PREACH!

Dankulakhan

No one is above the law.

Grizzbeorn

Doesn't matter that you're "the Hero of Tamriel."
The fact that you're a necromancer is what the people of Tamriel take issue with.
In their eyes, necromancy is bad; very bad, and overshadows any good you may have done.

Therefore, if you don't want a bounty, you need to duel in a place that is not visible to citizens or guards.

The_Titan_Tim

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Doesn't matter that you're "the Hero of Tamriel."
The fact that you're a necromancer is what the people of Tamriel take issue with.
In their eyes, necromancy is bad; very bad, and overshadows any good you may have done.

Therefore, if you don't want a bounty, you need to duel in a place that is not visible to citizens or guards.

I wouldn’t be opposed to a Dark Brotherhood passive that prevents criminal acts from being detected in combat, or something along those lines and to the “just duel somewhere else” mindset, dueling areas are established. You can’t just tell everyone… “Hey guys, I’m a Necromancer, let’s all go to the desert,” and expect compliance.

Turtle_Bot

I understand the cro/vamp/WW abilities giving a bounty from a lore/RP perspective, but it's definitely strange in an open world MMO where you have daedra, assassins, master thieves, etc all running around uncontested like they're the local neighborhood cat/dog/guar.

Maybe a toggle option that allows RPers to keep it on if they wish to, while those that aren't interested in RP or adhering strictly to the lore aspects aren't punished for dueling or accidentally pressing a button near a city (the same way they have an option in the settings to prevent looting placed items, or harming innocents etc). It won't remove the justice system, only make it so that abilities will no longer trigger the justice system unless they are used to actually commit a crime (i.e. attack an NPC).

Grizzbeorn

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I understand the cro/vamp/WW abilities giving a bounty from a lore/RP perspective, but it's definitely strange in an open world MMO where you have daedra, assassins, master thieves, etc all running around uncontested like they're the local neighborhood cat/dog/guar.

Assassins and thieves get tagged with bounties if they are witnessed in the act.

The only one of those that is out of sync with the others (and should be brought in-line with the others) are the Sorc's Daedric pets.

Turtle_Bot

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I understand the cro/vamp/WW abilities giving a bounty from a lore/RP perspective, but it's definitely strange in an open world MMO where you have daedra, assassins, master thieves, etc all running around uncontested like they're the local neighborhood cat/dog/guar.

Assassins and thieves get tagged with bounties if they are witnessed in the act.

The only one of those that is out of sync with the others (and should be brought in-line with the others) are the Sorc's Daedric pets.

And notorious assassins/thieves would be apprehended on sight too, regardless if they're caught committing the act or not.

Grizzbeorn

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

And notorious assassins/thieves would be apprehended on sight too, regardless if they're caught committing the act or not.

They do get accosted by guards if they get too close to one and they have an active bounty.

Xarc

Just do not duel in city.
werewolves builds have the same problem

opalcity

We should have arenas in different places just for duelling. Like Kvatch arena, but the style changes to match the decor of the region. They should have their own wayshrine and plenty of room for spectators. Maybe even a changing room so competitors can change into duelling/pvp builds.

Stanx

Seems pretty reasonable to me that raising cadavers from their rest in order to have them fight and kill on your behalf would be considered a criminal act. Everyone thought Mannimarco was great when he excelled at the Psijic Order and assisted the 5 companions, but I think it's fair to say he's also added to the negative stigma or necromancy.

As people have pointed out it's not just necromancy - thieving, murdering, lycanthropes and vampires are also criminals following similar logic. Oh and flying.

This would break immersion for the sake of dueling in towns which is can be resolved by moving like 50 feet away.

Xarc

opalcity wrote: »

We should have arenas in different places just for duelling. Like Kvatch arena, but the style changes to match the decor of the region. They should have their own wayshrine and plenty of room for spectators. Maybe even a changing room so competitors can change into duelling/pvp builds.

yeah!
arenas should be added in all major cities

SpacemanSpiff1

there should be more dueling arenas with wayshrines and bankers, merchants, cooking stations, etc.

dueling should be illegal in towns

heaven13

The few dueling areas they’ve added (Stormhaven and Artaeum) are inconvenient to get to and not heavily visited. Make them more attractive, more accessible, and more of them and perhaps dueling will move to these places that are better for both these situations and moving people out of more highly trafficked quest/town areas.

The_Titan_Tim

heaven13 wrote: »

The few dueling areas they’ve added (Stormhaven and Artaeum) are inconvenient to get to and not heavily visited. Make them more attractive, more accessible, and more of them and perhaps dueling will move to these places that are better for both these situations and moving people out of more highly trafficked quest/town areas.

Artaeum’s dueling arena has NPCs that give you a bounty aswell.

sharquez

Remember when you walked into a tomb/town/graveyard/church and summoned a ghost to talk to for the 20th time in this game and no one cared?

And then you summoned Dr. Spooky PHD to heal someone and became a kill on sight criminal?

Yeah that's some Bull Netch offal right there.

The_Titan_Tim

sharquez wrote: »

Remember when you walked into a tomb/town/graveyard/church and summoned a ghost to talk to for the 20th time in this game and no one cared?

And then you summoned Dr. Spooky PHD to heal someone and became a kill on sight criminal?

Yeah that's some Bull Netch offal right there.

Right, and to make it worse, in places that you would think Necromancy would be more accepted, like in Morrowind or Fargrave, you still get a bounty, it makes no sense from a lore perspective, if there can’t be any give for dueling, then there needs to be an alternative solution that satisfies everyone. Either a dueling matchmaking system; or more regions that are accepting of the Necromancy that would make sense, like Daedric planes.

chessalavakia_ESO

I think it would be interesting if the game had some more variance in what people did and didn't consider a crime.

In some areas allow the Necromancers do whatever and in other areas go after Undaunted Necromany and Soul Trapping.

DMuehlhausen

My biggest issue is with those skills giving you a bounty just outside a town or something and a random dude sees it then guards attack you.

It's like [snip] you just gave me a quest to go kill these guys now you attack me cause you don't like the kill I used.

[edited for profanity bypass]

The_Titan_Tim

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

My biggest issue is with those skills giving you a bounty just outside a town or something and a random dude sees it then guards attack you.

It's like [snip] you just gave me a quest to go kill these guys now you attack me cause you don't like the kill I used.

Exactly! There are so many contradictions within this game in terms of RP, that get zero complaints, but when you suggest something that would convenience the player, it’s suddenly a problem.

Even if you have to work for it, like… I would fight a Greybeard while I was completely unarmed if it meant getting enough clout to use my Necro abilities without acquiring a bounty, ONLY in duels.

[edited to remove quote]

RisenEclipse

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I understand the cro/vamp/WW abilities giving a bounty from a lore/RP perspective, but it's definitely strange in an open world MMO where you have daedra, assassins, master thieves, etc all running around uncontested like they're the local neighborhood cat/dog/guar.

Assassins and thieves get tagged with bounties if they are witnessed in the act.

The only one of those that is out of sync with the others (and should be brought in-line with the others) are the Sorc's Daedric pets.

Daedra have never been illegal to summon in Tamriel. I mean in TES 4 Oblivion, the Mage's Guild sent a dremora to deliver a message to the captain of the guard because they were too lazy to do it themselves. The guard's response was basically "pffft... mages..." The Mage's Guild has openly summoned daedra. It isn't the same as necromancy, and by the lore isn't illegal in tamriel at all. Now of course some citizens are going to be a little startled by some dude with a winged twilight running by them. Sure. But at most the guard will tell them to just unsummon the daedra and stop terrifying the poor pesants.

whitecrow

Duel outside the city then.

Dr_Con

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I’m unaware if this has been discussed before, but there are quite a few major issues plaguing the class of Necromancer right now, one of which that I would like to bring attention to, is the issue of acquiring bounties in towns for using your abilities in duels.

There is a massive dueling community on this game, while there are very few Necromancers at these popular spots, and only ever, off away from the main areas.

The idea that my Necromancer, the known Hero of Tamriel, Saviour of Nirn, defeater of Mannimarco and Molag Baal, would be persecuted by townspeople and guards for defending himself in a duel, is outrageous.

I understand why an unknown character using their Necromancy would scare people lore-wise, but when you’ve completed the main storyline, there should be an exception made.

Thieves Guild has a passive called
Veil of Shadows that decreases your detection radius of criminal acts and it helps a little bit, but it is nowhere near enough.

This same problem plagues Werewolves and Vampires, and if it could be removed conditionally, it would be an incredible change.

reanimating the dead is universally accepted as taboo no matter the culture

a bit shocked by vampirism being illegal in all cities, you are shunned for being stage 4 so BEING one isn't illegal, though some have the actual use of blood in their practice. At Stage 4 you can use an ability to still interact with merchants.

Werewolf kinda makes sense except in the Reach tbh

Holycannoli

Dankulakhan wrote: »

No one is above the law.

That's how you know this is a fantasy game.

Tyrvarion

Sorceres skills are fine. Summoning Bound Daedra (most of which are) is (while frowned upon) mostly legal. What is illegal is to summon them to roam freely and terrorize people

Vulkunne

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I’m unaware if this has been discussed before, but there are quite a few major issues plaguing the class of Necromancer right now, one of which that I would like to bring attention to, is the issue of acquiring bounties in towns for using your abilities in duels.

There is a massive dueling community on this game, while there are very few Necromancers at these popular spots, and only ever, off away from the main areas.

The idea that my Necromancer, the known Hero of Tamriel, Saviour of Nirn, defeater of Mannimarco and Molag Baal, would be persecuted by townspeople and guards for defending himself in a duel, is outrageous.

I understand why an unknown character using their Necromancy would scare people lore-wise, but when you’ve completed the main storyline, there should be an exception made.

Thieves Guild has a passive called
Veil of Shadows that decreases your detection radius of criminal acts and it helps a little bit, but it is nowhere near enough.

This same problem plagues Werewolves and Vampires, and if it could be removed conditionally, it would be an incredible change.

Don't duel in locations that could trigger a response from the guards. There is an arena home you can get (I think with this purpose in mind), not mention you could just set aside a dueling area in your regular house.

This is another issue the player can exercise total control over. I would think anyone who duels regularly would just setup space in their home for this purpose. In fact, I think this is something I should be doing as well.

The_Titan_Tim

Vulkunne wrote: »

Don't duel in locations that could trigger a response from the guards. There is an arena home you can get (I think with this purpose in mind), not mention you could just set aside a dueling area in your regular house.

This is another issue the player can exercise total control over. I would think anyone who duels regularly would just setup space in their home for this purpose. In fact, I think this is something I should be doing as well.

One of my six classes is actively being gatekeeped from the content I enjoy, it’s a problem.

On Xbox NA, established dueling areas are Stormhaven’s Undaunted, Stonefall’s Davon’s Watch and finally, and this is the one that you rack the bounty up for, Auridon’s Vulkhel Guard. These spots have been established for years, as there is no matchmaking system, if you want to duel strangers, those are the three places you go.

On my Necromancer, I try to avoid Vulkhel Guard, but at late hours, both Stormhaven and Davon’s Watch become a ghost town (no pun intended) and you get forced into either not playing the content you enjoy, or racking up over a 100,000 gold bounty for dueling for an hour.

My primary home is the Elinhor Private Arena, but there are a few key problems with setting up a home for dueling… if your home looks good, performance is trash, then there is the problem with player cap on homes, as all Notables are 24, there are generally way more than 24 people at these locations due to the fact that a lot of people turn out just to spectate, as our community on Xbox is pretty entertaining. Then you have the space problem, as you can’t build any dueling platforms, due to the fact that since Homestead launch, you haven’t been able to use a knockback like Dragon Leap or Flame Clench as the player getting hit would go THROUGH any player made barriers all the way to ground level, potentially getting stuck inside an object, then if you use a ground based AoE, like Extended Ritual, those go through the floor to the ground level, any player made structures you’re fighting on are either a trap with a knockback, or exploitable with hidden AoEs that somehow have no need for vertical registration, if you’re above the hidden AoEs, they register you. Then there is the problem with player homes being privately owned instances (not much of a problem in every other scenario) as players can’t just travel to the Arena on the map and expect to run into each other…

I’ll probably make an entirely separate forum thread going over the problems with Dueling in player homes.

You say that we as the player excise the ability to avoid this altogether but you fail to see that although dueling might not be a priority for you in this game, it is everything to me.

Cyrodiil doesn’t work and in Battlegrounds, at my MMR, all I run into are ball groups and unkillable healers with the risk of getting third partied constantly, even in solo queue.

I_killed_Vivec

Take your duel out of town.

Believe me, you just get in the way. And while you might think you're showing off your mad necro skillz, nobody else is interested.

K9002

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

places that you would think Necromancy would be more accepted, like in Morrowind

In TES 4 necromancy was punished more harshly in Morrowind than in Cyrodiil because one of the cornerstones of Dunmer culture is ancestral worship. The ghosts and skeletons that could be seen in the many family tombs in TES 3 were not raised by necromancers, those were the ancestors guiding their resting places. Necromancy was such a taboo that not even the Telvanni dared to openly practice it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oyvbdacj7gw

tomofhyrule

While there may be areas that ended up being the 'designated duelling zones,' that wasn't intended. It's not ZOS's problem if the two places that they intended duelling to be done at aren't popping. Hammerdeath Arena was opened in Update 12 specifically as an arena for duelling. There's also the arena on Artaeum that comes with an achievement.

Yes, ZOS could have made either more enticing by having a nearby wayshrine. Yes, I am all in favor of ZOS adding ranked duels as their next 'big PvP thing,' considering that won't really split the current population that much and would help people fill out the duelling achievements, even if I wouldn't really do it myself.

But a big part of the "I hate seeing flappies/bears/etc in town!" is also people really hating to get SFX spam from people who can't be bothered to move three inches away from the most populated wayshrines before they duel. It is annoying.

Again, what they should do is make a 'Ranked Duels' thing so people who are just trying to get through town don't have to be subjected to that, and people who want to duel can get the matchmaking for it.