Core Combat Values: The Flaws of "Play as You Want"

Muizer

The misapprehension is in thinking that "play as you want" is equated with "there are little restrictions on your build". I think if you'd ask what "play as you want" means most people would reply with an archetype like "stealthy assassin rogue" or "fire raining battle mage" etc. "No restrictions on your build" turns it into "trying to get as close as you can and quite possibly still finding you're not competitive".

fred4

My instinct is that ZOS investing this heavily into "play as you want", e.g. hybridization, has been a waste of time. They could have used that time to fix bugs and do other, more productive things instead.

I however see bias equally in ZOS' vision as I do in Stamicka's original post (EDIT: This would take a long time to actually explain. I have to go, so this post will be limited). I've played this game continuously for 7 1/2 years. The main thing I focus on is build-crafting. I think neither I nor ZOS nor, perhaps, any other single player has a full grasp of how the continuing changes have impacted the game.

Too much choice isn't always a positive thing? Yes, new players I meet frequently clamour for and latch on to a single build to not only get them started, but that they assume / hope will be optimal for much more content than it really is. ZOS encourages selecting any build with their mantra, yet new players are frequently overwhelmed. Why is that? Because buildcrafting still matters in the end. There is no way you can get around learning how an MMO - this MMO - works, if you want to be effective. If you don't want to struggle in even some normal dungeons, then at some point you have to at least learn what a spammable is, what DOTs are, what ground effect abilities are, what executes are, and so on, and so on. I've seen builds with multiple spammables that made no sense.

ZOS don't make learning easy or intuitive. There's a lot that could be done. Instead of labeling crit with a meaningless number, it could have been labeled with a percentage. Same with resistances, other damage parameters, and so on. Instead of nerfing (sorc) shields in PvP to the point where that playstyle is now basically extinct, the default UI target health bar could have been changed to clearly display shields in PvP. A lot of the frustration of new players against magsorcs, when they were strong, IMO stemmed from seeing your damage not having any effect. I'm not saying historical magsorc didn't deserve nerfs, but that UI transparency - better feedback to the attacking player - should have been the first step, before taking the nerf hammer to shields.

The same goes for the encounter design team. I just did Unhallowed Grave hard mode. Apparently the boss hits the tank harder when group member(s) are dead. That boss also hits with a variety of poorly telegraphed and apparently unblockable attacks that are very hard to see when you have a necro ult or Maw of the Infernal in front of your camera (yes, I tab target). There are many instances where ZOS are deliberately or accidentally obscure, when the revelation comes of how to actually do some harder content, it's disappointing in it's banality. Sometimes that involves specific skills or builds. At the highest level: frequently.

One of my early memories is arena 6 in vMA. I could intuitively understand the preceding ice stage, but did not understand why I should lead spiderlings to the light. Much worse, getting guaranteed one shot from the boss' enrage mode minute(s) after failing to subdue her was hardly something you could learn on your own. Cause and effect were (and are) too far apart. ZOS subsequently added captions to a few of the arenas. I don't believe I was the only one who had trouble grasping their artistic choices and mechanics when that content came out.

ESO accidentally being inscrutable is one thing, but in the case of crit and damage values, ZOS are deliberately obscure. Instead of tinkering with the combat, they could have worked on smoothing and streamlining the game. This wouldn't even require a combat tutorial they apparently don't want to do, although a training course would sure be nice. You don't have to force that down players throats right at the beginning either. Tomb Raider games had a separate training level - Lara's mansion - that was a nice piece of content in it's own right. We have that for Volendrung. We don't have it for classes in general.

fred4

When you think about it, "play as you want" could also have been achieved by making skill points and skill line progress account wide. There was truly no need for the drastic combat shifts ZOS have undertaken from that point of view.

ghastley

Stamicka wrote: »

Recently, we were given some insight into the core values of ESO's combat system. While some of these values can be beneficial to casual play, they are very detrimental to competitive play. I'd like to discuss the downsides of ESO's "Play the Way You Want" value and it's impact on mastery and competitive play.

And right at the outset you tell me that I must want "mastery and competitive play". I don't. I want comfortable, non-strenuous play so that I can relax. The game lets me do that if I want. Even if it's not what you want.

heaven13

fred4 wrote: »

When you think about it, "play as you want" could also have been achieved by making skill points and skill line progress account wide. There was truly no need for the drastic combat shifts ZOS have undertaken from that point of view.

Gross. Please no. We don’t need to make alternate character even more irrelevant than AwA already did.

Stamicka

ghastley wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Recently, we were given some insight into the core values of ESO's combat system. While some of these values can be beneficial to casual play, they are very detrimental to competitive play. I'd like to discuss the downsides of ESO's "Play the Way You Want" value and it's impact on mastery and competitive play.

And right at the outset you tell me that I must want "mastery and competitive play". I don't. I want comfortable, non-strenuous play so that I can relax. The game lets me do that if I want. Even if it's not what you want.

Absolutely nothing in this post is saying that. All I am saying is that "Play as you Want" is kind of a poor design goal outside of casual play, especially in the way that the devs are currently implementing it. No one is telling you that you can't play the game casually.

Necrotech_Master

heaven13 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

When you think about it, "play as you want" could also have been achieved by making skill points and skill line progress account wide. There was truly no need for the drastic combat shifts ZOS have undertaken from that point of view.

Gross. Please no. We don’t need to make alternate character even more irrelevant than AwA already did.

for me, its the complete opposite, AWA allows me to enjoy my alt characters a lot more, but the reason i dont make more than 10 characters is all of the work you have to do to get the new character up to speed again

• mount training (which i dont bother maxing out with on even my current toons)
• psijic skill line (which most of my toons havent gotten all the way through, just enough to get the portals)
• guild skill lines (undaunted, mages, fighters guilds)
• do the intro for thieves guild and dark brotherhood for those skill lines
• crafting skill lines
• companion unlocks (cause zos somehow thinks that redoing the same quest to re-unlock an acct wide unlock is fine)

zaria

Muizer wrote: »

The misapprehension is in thinking that "play as you want" is equated with "there are little restrictions on your build". I think if you'd ask what "play as you want" means most people would reply with an archetype like "stealthy assassin rogue" or "fire raining battle mage" etc. "No restrictions on your build" turns it into "trying to get as close as you can and quite possibly still finding you're not competitive".

This, also its so many settings here, I found bis trial builds don't work well in dungeons as you you don't have the trial buffs and the bosses dies fast but it tend to be lots of mechanics you have to handle on the harder ones.
Well I look at builds and see it they work, ESO mechanic is so hard Kerbal space program is very intuitive compared to it.

As for the random changes, well the objective of the combat balance team is to increase company revenue.
If this fails, replace them.

heaven13

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

When you think about it, "play as you want" could also have been achieved by making skill points and skill line progress account wide. There was truly no need for the drastic combat shifts ZOS have undertaken from that point of view.

Gross. Please no. We don’t need to make alternate character even more irrelevant than AwA already did.

for me, its the complete opposite, AWA allows me to enjoy my alt characters a lot more, but the reason i dont make more than 10 characters is all of the work you have to do to get the new character up to speed again

• mount training (which i dont bother maxing out with on even my current toons)
• psijic skill line (which most of my toons havent gotten all the way through, just enough to get the portals)
• guild skill lines (undaunted, mages, fighters guilds)
• do the intro for thieves guild and dark brotherhood for those skill lines
• crafting skill lines
• companion unlocks (cause zos somehow thinks that redoing the same quest to re-unlock an acct wide unlock is fine)

This is the difference between those who play alts as their own characters vs those who play them as an extension of the player. For those that prefer the latter, unlocks via crown store are available as a shortcut if you didn’t want to put in the time. Titles should have been made accountwide like other rewards. But there is no alternative for the former anymore. AwA stripped all of that away and took the choice away from us completely. I won’t rehash the whole argument but it was pretty awful to have such a choice forced with no alternatives.

Necrotech_Master

heaven13 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

When you think about it, "play as you want" could also have been achieved by making skill points and skill line progress account wide. There was truly no need for the drastic combat shifts ZOS have undertaken from that point of view.

Gross. Please no. We don’t need to make alternate character even more irrelevant than AwA already did.

for me, its the complete opposite, AWA allows me to enjoy my alt characters a lot more, but the reason i dont make more than 10 characters is all of the work you have to do to get the new character up to speed again

• mount training (which i dont bother maxing out with on even my current toons)
• psijic skill line (which most of my toons havent gotten all the way through, just enough to get the portals)
• guild skill lines (undaunted, mages, fighters guilds)
• do the intro for thieves guild and dark brotherhood for those skill lines
• crafting skill lines
• companion unlocks (cause zos somehow thinks that redoing the same quest to re-unlock an acct wide unlock is fine)

This is the difference between those who play alts as their own characters vs those who play them as an extension of the player. For those that prefer the latter, unlocks via crown store are available as a shortcut if you didn’t want to put in the time. Titles should have been made accountwide like other rewards. But there is no alternative for the former anymore. AwA stripped all of that away and took the choice away from us completely. I won’t rehash the whole argument but it was pretty awful to have such a choice forced with no alternatives.

the point i was bringing up is the amount of work to set up a new character, and i dont condone nor use the crown store to bypass these unlocks (some of which you cant like companion quests, even though i did already pay for the expansions and "unlock" them account wide in the collection menu), you also cannot level crafting lines with the crown store nor get antiquity skill lines

for what its worth i treat all my characters as individuals with their own builds (i refuse to use the armory system because it would change the character too much for me) which is why i have multiple characters as each fulfills their own role, but i stopped making them at 10 characters because of all the extra work it is to get them to a "useable" state

most of my toons have little or no mount training, only the initial intros for psijic, thieves guild and dark brotherhood, dont do antiquities at all, and never even did the tribute intro until we could skip that tutorial match

joseayalac

Imagine if classes didn't exist and players could pick any 3 class skill lines they wanted. Basically everyone would be running the same build all over the place. That kind of homogenization is happening already and the only true difference between many classes is the visual flavor of each.

Already when a class doesn't have a good spammable/heal/sustain the player base rants like crazy asking for all classes to have access to the same tools... for example "it's unfair that a nightblade has less healing than a dragonknight", "my dragonknight should have a spammable as good as surprise attack", etc.

FeedbackOnly

I play ESO because I can play as you want

fred4

heaven13 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

When you think about it, "play as you want" could also have been achieved by making skill points and skill line progress account wide. There was truly no need for the drastic combat shifts ZOS have undertaken from that point of view.

Gross. Please no. We don’t need to make alternate character even more irrelevant than AwA already did.

Not saying they should do it now, but this would have been an alternative to hybridization while keeping the stamina / magicka divide and more distinct class system alive. How do nightblade tanks really make sense, for example? All those play as you want and hybridization changes could have been avoided by making class switching more accessible at a fraction of the labor cost for ZOS.

OBJnoob

I don't think we should confuse player-imposed requirements for doing certain content with what the game actually lets you do. Just because some snobs might not let you join a trial with 75k dps doesn't mean the trial can't be done with 75k dps. Just because you die sometimes in pvp to players wearing different gear doesn't mean there aren't players you can kill.

Provided you have working knowledge of game mechanics and create a build that compliments itself you can do basically anything with basically anything. So what's the problem? People don't want their role play to be disturbed but they want to be the best? Millions of people wanting to role play "the strongest," sure, yeah, it's realistic to ask for that.