i only PVE but, ZOS, please, for the health of the game sort out the PVP.

Deter1UK

In fact I would forgo new content this year if the resources thus made available would make a difference.

Any improvements to PVP can only affect the rest of the game in a positive way. Honestly, it's past time!

Xandreia_

Wolfkeks

Yes, PvP needs some💙

Dr_Con

wholesome post

robwolf666

Deter1UK wrote: »

In fact I would forgo new content this year if the resources thus made available would make a difference.

I wouldn't, I pay for my ESO+ for a reason - besides, sounds like they're already watering down PvE a bit going forward. If they're going fix stuff, fix everything that's fixable.

Dr_Con

no longer a wholesome post

Genfe

robwolf666 wrote: »

Deter1UK wrote: »

In fact I would forgo new content this year if the resources thus made available would make a difference.

I wouldn't, I pay for my ESO+ for a reason - besides, sounds like they're already watering down PvE a bit going forward. If they're going fix stuff, fix everything that's fixable.

And what about people who play for pvp and has Eso plus for 6+years for dog water

ALAEACUS

I play a mix of PvE and PvP. PvE-only players have been catered to since this game launched. PvP has always been an after-thought. PvP needs major attention.

Turtle_Bot

Dr_Con wrote: »

no longer a wholesome post

didn't take long

Molydeus

ALAEACUS wrote: »

I play a mix of PvE and PvP. PvE-only players have been catered to since this game launched. PvP has always been an after-thought. PvP needs major attention.

Please. Every fun ability in PvE has been nerfed into the ground because of PvP. You say they cater to PvE players and yet they balance every skill line, class, set, and ability based off PvP. It's the same in every game that has both: PvE players get massive nerfs or flat out removel of skills based on what is happening in PvP.

Atrael7

Molydeus wrote: »

ALAEACUS wrote: »

I play a mix of PvE and PvP. PvE-only players have been catered to since this game launched. PvP has always been an after-thought. PvP needs major attention.

Please. Every fun ability in PvE has been nerfed into the ground because of PvP. You say they cater to PvE players and yet they balance every skill line, class, set, and ability based off PvP. It's the same in every game that has both: PvE players get massive nerfs or flat out removel of skills based on what is happening in PvP.

So where do we start with this? Let's see, the patches that've added content to PvP were the Imperial City in 2015, and then battlegrounds in Morrowind (2017). We're on patch 36 now, I'll leave the math up to you on how many patches we've had that've consistently added hundreds of hours of PvE content to the game over the years.

Speaking of massive nerfs that the innocent PvE players receive because of those bad PvPers, remind me, did update 35 happen because of PvP, or was it because of the funny damage numbers that the top 0.01% of PvE players were producing due to ever more out of control sets being added to PvE? I dunno, last I checked, you couldn't do 160k dps in Cyrodiil. Here, I'm even gonna toss this relevant snippet in here from the U35 combat preview.



And, correct me if I'm wrong, but, isn't the PvP population shrinking constantly due to the lack of attention it's gotten over the years? Aren't people leaving to play other games where they can feel valued as regular consumers rather than vilified, put under a common toxic denominator and blamed about everything? Why then would they cater to PvPers? If I were a dev, I would cater to my largest player demographic, not the smallest. And in fact, I believe that they have been. For years. Might just be that OP's on to something.

ALAEACUS

Molydeus wrote: »

ALAEACUS wrote: »

I play a mix of PvE and PvP. PvE-only players have been catered to since this game launched. PvP has always been an after-thought. PvP needs major attention.

Please. Every fun ability in PvE has been nerfed into the ground because of PvP. You say they cater to PvE players and yet they balance every skill line, class, set, and ability based off PvP. It's the same in every game that has both: PvE players get massive nerfs or flat out removel of skills based on what is happening in PvP.

Considering every single update this game has received since 2014 has had PvE adjustments or content in them, but you can count significant PvP updates on one or two hands, in 8 years....yes, PvE has been catered to.

Turtle_Bot

Molydeus wrote: »

ALAEACUS wrote: »

I play a mix of PvE and PvP. PvE-only players have been catered to since this game launched. PvP has always been an after-thought. PvP needs major attention.

Please. Every fun ability in PvE has been nerfed into the ground because of PvP. You say they cater to PvE players and yet they balance every skill line, class, set, and ability based off PvP. It's the same in every game that has both: PvE players get massive nerfs or flat out removel of skills based on what is happening in PvP.

PvP has not had any significant new content since the battlegrounds were introduced in Morrowind. That was almost 6 years ago now. Meanwhile PvE has had 2 zones, 4 dungeons and 1 trial every single year for the past 5 years.

Or we can look at the events done throughout the year, pvp gets 1 (used to be 2 before the second was cancelled), meanwhile, there is a PvE event upwards of 8 times per year (basically 1 per month).

Or we can look at performance issues, pvp have been dealing with horrible performance, atrocious balance changes and game breaking bugs for nearly a decade now, performance issues that after only affecting pve for barely 1 year, pve players are screaming over and now that its affecting pve as well, its finally getting looked into and worked on getting fixed.

VictorDragonslayer

Molydeus wrote: »

ALAEACUS wrote: »

I play a mix of PvE and PvP. PvE-only players have been catered to since this game launched. PvP has always been an after-thought. PvP needs major attention.

Please. Every fun ability in PvE has been nerfed into the ground because of PvP. You say they cater to PvE players and yet they balance every skill line, class, set, and ability based off PvP. It's the same in every game that has both: PvE players get massive nerfs or flat out removel of skills based on what is happening in PvP.

People who don't do neither PvE nor PvP look at spreadsheets and try to balance same skills for different environments. The logical conclusion is to tie all skills to battle spirit (vampire mist proves that it is possible), but I doubt that ZOS will implement it in a foreseeable future.

Jammy420

Molydeus wrote: »

ALAEACUS wrote: »

I play a mix of PvE and PvP. PvE-only players have been catered to since this game launched. PvP has always been an after-thought. PvP needs major attention.

Please. Every fun ability in PvE has been nerfed into the ground because of PvP. You say they cater to PvE players and yet they balance every skill line, class, set, and ability based off PvP. It's the same in every game that has both: PvE players get massive nerfs or flat out removel of skills based on what is happening in PvP.

Static NPCs do not complain about op skills. Nor are they negatively effected by them. PvPers are.

Brrrofski

Molydeus wrote: »

ALAEACUS wrote: »

I play a mix of PvE and PvP. PvE-only players have been catered to since this game launched. PvP has always been an after-thought. PvP needs major attention.

Please. Every fun ability in PvE has been nerfed into the ground because of PvP. You say they cater to PvE players and yet they balance every skill line, class, set, and ability based off PvP. It's the same in every game that has both: PvE players get massive nerfs or flat out removel of skills based on what is happening in PvP.

Completely untrue narrative.

Yes, skills and sets have been adjusted because of how strong they are in PvP. That's true. That doesn't mean they were balanced in PvE btw, it's just that NPCs can't complain.

But there has not only been numerous skills and sets changed because of PvE, but huge game mechanics have been altered too.

It always has been a two-way street. There's nerfs from both sides that affect the other.

I hate that train of though that it's always PvP that changes PvE. It's completely false. It's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

Sarannah

Agreed with you OP, except on the forgo on PvE content. The current state of PvP shines a bad light upon the whole of ESO. Even though the game itself is great. ZOS either needs to fix PvP, or completely remove it from the game. Removing it from the game would also help with balance issues.

And for those PvPers who are now thinking, "OMG, he wants to remove PvP from the game!", no I don't. But right now it is only a very small portion of the game, yet it places the entire game in a negative light. Both with how it runs, as well as the balance impact it has on the game. Not to mention all the resources that went into Cyrodiil for many years, to try and fix all the issues in Cyrodiil, while this is only for a very small part of the playerbase. Again, I do NOT want PvP removed, but we have to be realistic about it.

That said, I do want ZOS to fix PvP. Personally I think the only way to fix the PvP issues, is by doing two things:
1: Completely remove Cyrodiil and battlegrounds, and make a much smaller map with very few capturable resources(and maybe one large resource in the middle, which also grants a serverwide PvE benefit for that entire alliance who controls it, for example 1% increased gold/exp from any source). Somewhat larger than a BG map, but like 1/4th of Cyrodiil tops, yet for a large population. This would consolidate all PvPers in one area, and would also ensure more battles going on, instead of making it a riding simulator.

2: Make PvP more casual-friendly/accessible, so more players can participate. The only way I can think of this happening, is if battles last much much longer, instead of the instant-kill type of PvP the game has now. How ZOS should go about this, I'm not sure, maybe by increasing health in PvP by 1 million, or lowering player damage to a maximum of 1% of the enemies health as damage per skill, or any other way. Longer battles would allow players to learn and improve in PvP, as opposed to the current state of instant-kill PvP which chases practically everyone away.

Anyways, these are just my thoughts on PvP.

Luede

Molydeus wrote: »

ALAEACUS wrote: »

I play a mix of PvE and PvP. PvE-only players have been catered to since this game launched. PvP has always been an after-thought. PvP needs major attention.

Please. Every fun ability in PvE has been nerfed into the ground because of PvP. You say they cater to PvE players and yet they balance every skill line, class, set, and ability based off PvP. It's the same in every game that has both: PvE players get massive nerfs or flat out removel of skills based on what is happening in PvP.

that's not correct, pvp players only call attention to an imbalance immediately because they are more sensitive about the effects of certain changes. [Snip].

[Edited for bashing]

martinhpb16_ESO

Sarannah wrote: »

2: Make PvP more casual-friendly/accessible, so more players can participate. The only way I can think of this happening, is if battles last much much longer, instead of the instant-kill type of PvP the game has now. How ZOS should go about this, I'm not sure, maybe by increasing health in PvP by 1 million, or lowering player damage to a maximum of 1% of the enemies health as damage per skill, or any other way. Longer battles would allow players to learn and improve in PvP, as opposed to the current state of instant-kill PvP which chases practically everyone away.

Anyways, these are just my thoughts on PvP.

Oh please no no no. The last 'accessibility' project is one of the recent nails in pvp's coffin. The current meta has stalemate fights where no-one can win. We need less of that please not more. The last thing we need is even more Captains Sparrow and Barbossa immortal fights that go on into infinity.

DMuehlhausen

Deter1UK wrote: »

In fact I would forgo new content this year if the resources thus made available would make a difference.

Any improvements to PVP can only affect the rest of the game in a positive way. Honestly, it's past time!

If you want them to sort out PvP for the health of the game than that would be to remove PvP completely from the game. You cannot balance PvP and PvE. It's mathematically impossible to do.

The only way you could would be to make items and skills that are only usable in PvP and they aren't about to do that.

DMuehlhausen

Genfe wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

Deter1UK wrote: »

In fact I would forgo new content this year if the resources thus made available would make a difference.

I wouldn't, I pay for my ESO+ for a reason - besides, sounds like they're already watering down PvE a bit going forward. If they're going fix stuff, fix everything that's fixable.

And what about people who play for pvp and has Eso plus for 6+years for dog water

You make the decision to play a game that is over 90% PvE playerbase and after 6 years not gotten a significant update for what you play. That's your decision to keep playing. Understand at this point they aren't going to be doing much for PvP most likely. While the game isn't "maintenance mode" they aren't going to dump significant time and resources into something that less than 5% of the playerbase does most of the time logged in.

SaffronCitrusflower

Molydeus wrote: »

ALAEACUS wrote: »

I play a mix of PvE and PvP. PvE-only players have been catered to since this game launched. PvP has always been an after-thought. PvP needs major attention.

Please. Every fun ability in PvE has been nerfed into the ground because of PvP. You say they cater to PvE players and yet they balance every skill line, class, set, and ability based off PvP. It's the same in every game that has both: PvE players get massive nerfs or flat out removel of skills based on what is happening in PvP.

I couldn't disagree more. PvE is a cakewalk compared to the combat and competition in PvP. PvE is not a victim of PvP. Period.

Jaimeh

Thanks OP, and I wholeheartedly agree: ZOS please fix performance in Cyrodiil and focus on PvP content this year When ESO was released, PvP was one of the major selling points for the game and featured hugely in its advertisement, and a lot of long-time players started as PvPers, so it's really sad to see this mode in decline. When Cyro works and its populated, there's nothing more engaging and fun!

SilverBride

I'd like to see the problems with PvP and Cyrodiil fixed but it shouldn't come at anyone else's expense. We should continue to receive the content we are paying for as ESO+ subscribers and the PvP issues should be worked on, too. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

chessalavakia_ESO

Deter1UK wrote: »

In fact I would forgo new content this year if the resources thus made available would make a difference.

Any improvements to PVP can only affect the rest of the game in a positive way. Honestly, it's past time!

Why do you believe improvements to PVP can only affect the rest of the game in a positive way?

In this year alone, I've had my former favorite class changed due to PvP complaints (it's also now OP enough in PvP that the new PvP complaints will likely get it changed further next year) as well as had my favorite heal take a massive hit (the healing in PVP is still getting lots of complaints).

You also ram into the issue that the interests of the different sections that have liked PvP in ESO do not necessarily align with one another or with what would potentially work for larger audiences.

ZOS_Volpe

Hi everyone!

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive. Please ensure you are treating others with respect on the forums even when they have views that differ from your own. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for understanding.

DMuehlhausen

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Deter1UK wrote: »

In fact I would forgo new content this year if the resources thus made available would make a difference.

Any improvements to PVP can only affect the rest of the game in a positive way. Honestly, it's past time!

If you want them to sort out PvP for the health of the game than that would be to remove PvP completely from the game. You cannot balance PvP and PvE. It's mathematically impossible to do.

The only way you could would be to make items and skills that are only usable in PvP and they aren't about to do that.

Stop it. Just stop with the eliminate PvP from the game just because you don't like to PvP.

No, they asked how to fix it and improve the game. That's really the option(s). ZoS hasn't given anything to PvP in 6 years..why? They know not enough people play it consistently enough to bother with it. So if people want the game improved pull it from the game move the people that look at PvP every couple quarters and put them full time on something else and actually improve the game.

You're wrong. PvP is the end game for ESO and the most challenging content in the game. Just because you don't like PvP doesn't mean it's not very popular.

Lol endgame...you can't be serious. Yes it's not very popular. I go in for achievements or when it's the easiest endeavor or whatever and I see the same people in all the time. It literally is less than 5% of the population most likely that are consistently playing it. I don't understand why people keep fighting over this. It's the numbers from every other PvE based MMO in history of gaming. You have your hardcore raiders that are around 5-10% max of the population. The hardcore PvPers that are about the same but slightly lower and then the remaining 85 - 90% of casual PvE players that make up the game. They are the ones dropping 10s of thousands on crates and reskin mounts. They are the ones that keep the game alive so PvPers can live in their beautiful massive zone and complain.

This is true for most any game in the world. Take Magic the Gathering too. You have your hardcore grinders trying to make pro tournaments (PvPers) they only make up like 10-15% of the playerbase. The rest of the players are kitchen table (Commander) players. They drive the game, they make the game money. The Grinders complain cause commander style cards are terrible for wha they play, but Wizards is never going to do anything for them because they could all stop playing and the game is still a multi billion dollar cash cow.

If they removed PvP from the game over half the people that play would make the switch to PvE. they'd complain about it but they would do it and there would be almost 0 effect felt. I'm sorry, but hardcore PvPers or even hardcore trial runners just don't make up a big enough portion for ZoS or any MMO developer to put significant effort and time into it. That's not where the money is made. The man is made catering to people like me (who use to raid nightly 5-6 hours on WoW) who have 2-3 hours MAX a night maybe even sometimes a week, but have the extra 500$/month to drop on crown crates or crowns for a house. That's where the money is, that's where the sustainment of the game comes from. Not PvP or Trials. It's just the reality of these games.

Even look at this latest CoD. They went back to old school mechanics for movement because the people like me were getting tired of working 10 hours a day jumping on for fun and just being destroyed by streamers playing 12 hours or more a day. They cater to who is going to make them the money in the long run and it's not the extreme on either end. it's the 90% of people in the middle.

Deter1UK

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Why do you believe improvements to PVP can only affect the rest of the game in a positive way?

Because:

People can be very vocal about what they don't like.

I heard someone at a gaming club recently advise people not to get ESO 'because it's rubbish' . I quietly asked him why he thought this and it turns out he was an ex PVP player who did not appreciate the state of the game.

Fair enough.

Except - the couple he was talking to were actually looking for an on-line RPG. You might think ESO was a possible fit no?

All I could do was say I enjoyed it and tell them to give it a go on the next free trial period - nothing to loose right?

You see it's a reputation thing and it needs fixing.

A rising tide raises all ships after all...

Sarannah

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

2: Make PvP more casual-friendly/accessible, so more players can participate. The only way I can think of this happening, is if battles last much much longer, instead of the instant-kill type of PvP the game has now. How ZOS should go about this, I'm not sure, maybe by increasing health in PvP by 1 million, or lowering player damage to a maximum of 1% of the enemies health as damage per skill, or any other way. Longer battles would allow players to learn and improve in PvP, as opposed to the current state of instant-kill PvP which chases practically everyone away.

Anyways, these are just my thoughts on PvP.

Oh please no no no. The last 'accessibility' project is one of the recent nails in pvp's coffin. The current meta has stalemate fights where no-one can win. We need less of that please not more. The last thing we need is even more Captains Sparrow and Barbossa immortal fights that go on into infinity.

There is a difference between long fights, and endless fights. Endless fights, like your example, should never happen. Ofcourse for my suggestion, the long fights, some major adjustments would need to be made. Like no healing possible(no heal or steal), no endless damage shields(very very long cooldown), and some other things. But I didn't want to go into too much detail, as it was only a suggestion/idea.

But I do hope we all want the same thing: More players playing in PvP. Especially as right now, the game barely even seems to be able to fill BG's, hence the BG queue-type issues. If eventually more players are attracted to PvP, this would also allow PvP to eventually grow. So let's make it the aim to get more players into PvP. Sadly I hardly ever see suggestions to improve PvP, besides the obvious performance and balance threads. (did not check the PvP section of the forums)

Would be cool if PvP players could offer overall suggestions on how to get more players into PvP, without going into small details like balance/skills/gear themselves. Suggestions/thoughts on this, could maybe really help ZOS out:
-What would "attractive-to-everyone"-PvP look like from a PvPer point of view?.. Is this even possible? .. If no, try to make it so it is.
-Does the current instant-kill type of PvP fit ESO?
-Does the current instant-kill type of PvP still fit ESO if ZOS wants to increase the PvP population? ... If not, how would you change it, to attract a larger PvP population?
-Does the Cyrodiil type of PvP fit this game? .. How would you change it to get more players into it? .. Is Cyrodiil the right size/way?
-Does the BG type of PvP fit this game? .. How would you change it to get more players into it? .. Are BG's the right size?
-How should a 1-vs-1 go down? .. does this work well now?
-How should a group-vs-1 go down? .. does this work well now?
-What do you think about healing in relation to the current type of ESO PvP? And about healing in general in PvP?
-What do you think about damage shields in relation to the current type of ESO PvP? And about damage shields in general in PvP?
-Do repawns after death work the way they should? Do respawns entice PvPing? Can players die too often/fast, in relation to the respawn points? .. As in Cyrodiil this means riding, in IC this means going back to the right district, in BG's this means starting from the beginning.
-Grouping in PvP ... thoughts/ideas on this?
-How would you fix PvP, while keeping in mind it needs to grow a larger population at the same time?

There is probably more to think about to increase the PvP population, but those are the main PvP points in my opinion. Feel free to add to it! You never know if ZOS might read it, or take ideas from it.

PS: Not sure if "instant-kill" is the correct word for the current PvP, maybe quick-kill, or something else. Atleast do understand, I do mean the current ESO fast-dead PvP style combat by it.

NordSwordnBoard

@Deter1UK Nice job on a positive post, it's too bad it was attacked by hyperbole and agendas. The "fast paced" combat in ESO is unique enough that it has kept PvP and PvE players for years. You're right, fixing PvP or at least a (successful) serious repair would go a very long way with all the players.

I'll skip presenting conjured up numbers and percentages since we have no official data on ESO, and say this: When things function well, you will have multiple players waiting in a que to PvP during weekend prime times. That is still attainable.

MEBengalsFan2001

Molydeus wrote: »

ALAEACUS wrote: »

I play a mix of PvE and PvP. PvE-only players have been catered to since this game launched. PvP has always been an after-thought. PvP needs major attention.

Please. Every fun ability in PvE has been nerfed into the ground because of PvP. You say they cater to PvE players and yet they balance every skill line, class, set, and ability based off PvP. It's the same in every game that has both: PvE players get massive nerfs or flat out removel of skills based on what is happening in PvP.

I use to think like this when I played on PVE. But now that I play both on a regular basis I can state that the changes devs make is more to do with data collected than it is about PVE or PVP specific changes.

I'll start with living dark as the ability to discuss. Players in PVP were getting massive heals from high offensive stats. Same with any tank that decided to use this skill in PVE. Devs could track and monitor this and adjusted the skill as needed. It has a lower healing potential now but has a longer use making it IMO a decent skill but not an overpowered skill like it was previously.

Burning Light did too much damage and was easy to get a proc off from jabs in PVE and PVP. Damage adjustment to it was needed.

Backlash had very high damage potential and many players in PVE and PVP both benefited from it. Especially if you were able to hit 2 near each other and was using jabs.

Puncture Strikes morphs - were doing way to much damage and sweep was providing high heals. Overall you didn't really need much else to produce high damage on a PVE templar and it was PVE players complaining about how it worked with light attack weaving resulting in the animation being adjusted.

Yeah it may feel like skills are adjusted for PVP but that usually isn't the case. They are adjusted based on data collected. It is in the numbers and based on that information skills are adjusted.

Since I play more PVP, IMO skills are adjusted due to PVE players burning through content solo or with groups. When I run with groups on my support characters I hear drop one of the healer or tank for more BURN. That IMO is why the devs keep adjusting damage, too much BURN and you can SKIP mechanics. Which is the other things players state when they talk about having good DPS, we can SKIP this mechanic or this one, etc... high damage = content not being as hard as intended. Therefore devs will simply adjust damage lower so content is now harder and closer to what was intended.

Changes happen for balancing purposed in both PVE and PVP. Not one or the other.