SpellCrafting Challenge

The_Titan_Tim

GetAgrippa wrote: »

Why even have classes then.

Classes have always been a baseline in prior TES games; they never locked you into specific gameplay they were guides, that helped you on the path to building your character. Having classes give small passive increases to new Spells of their school, ie Restoration for Templars, classes would still encourage players that mid-max to play traditionally.

vsrs_au

I think the traditional Elder Scrolls "bound weapon" spell would be pretty nice also.

kriegwar13

I think if they would implement spellcrafting the classes, skill lines should be revamped/overhauled as well. overall the gameplay and style. If they already planned to do this last 2014, before ESO even launched, technically they have already thought about this too.

Rather, classes should be like racial passives where you can benefit/rewarded once you invested in a particular path of choice. For example:

Class:

Sorcerer

Destruction: Flames (Passive)
Skill 1 - Flame spells cost less magicka when cast
Skill 2 - Flame spells do more damage when wielding inferno staff (whatever)
Skill 3 - Increases duration of DoT spells or whatever the effect..
Skill 4 - Access Master Level Flame Spells.. whatever..
Destruction: Shock (Passive)
Destruction: Frost (Passive)

Class:

Necromancer

Conjuration: Summon Undead (Passive)
Skill 1 - Conjuring zombie / skeleton from a corpse cost less magicka
Skill 2 - Double the duration of summoned undead
Skill 3 - Reanimated zombie / skeleton do more damage
Skill 4 - Access to Master Level Undead Spells
Conjuration: Summon Atronach (Passive)
Conjuration: Summon Daedra (Passive)

Class:

Templar

Restoration: Healing
Restoration: Ward Spells
Restoration: Offensive Light Spells (Whatever)

Class:

Warrior/Barbarian

One-Handed
Dual-Wield
Two-Handed

You get the idea. This is just an example though, the point is reward players if they follow a particular class path, that will benefit their character. This way, there is no class identity killing yet we still have all freedom to wield what weapons, craft spells whatever we want. jack of all trades, master of one. whatever build you chose. The thing that they to hard implement is the need to just to choose from whatever skill lines you should focus. EX: when you chose flame destruction spells, you cannot choose from Shock or Frost passives anymore. but then again partner this with spell crafting, you can still use whatever spells you crafted. Only the "masters" of school of a particular school of magic can access master spells.

They should balance this to physical wielding weapon like warrior, paladin, ranger, assassin whatever. Maybe instead spell crafting, they should use "training". for physical types.

It is not that difficult to balance as well since they know what spells/abilities of the class should be balanced.

Tannus15

If the system was just what @WrathOfInnos outlined then I'd be hyped. It doesn't need to be amazing over the top, just enough to allow us to fill gaps and make our character fit the role they need.

Maybe we won't see all mDK with 1 sorc and 1 nightblade for buffs as trial compositions if any class can slot some decent cleave options to complement their class skill options.
Maybe we can finally lean into theme builds like shock sorc or a dot sorc instead of pet sorc.

it will also probably create a META skill setup of spellcrafting abilities that are BiS making everything look even more the same. but we'll see.

Dr_Con

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Spellcrafting cannot be that open ended, it will certainly have bounds on what can be made.

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Single target spammables for each of the Destruction elements. Force Pulse has never felt very elemental to me.

This is a great example. Lightning is the worst in this case, as none of the weapon lines or classes have a good single target spammable. With spellcrafting we could theoretically make one (combining "runes" like Shock + Instant + Single Target + Ranged) and then use it with any weapon type or build.

And why stop at one? You could also make a single target shock DoT, a lightning ground AoE DoT, etc. Slot a few crafted spells along with Endless Fury, Lighting Flood, Thunderous Rage and Boundless Storm. Now you've got a fully cohesive electromancer build, and sets like Netch's Touch become viable.

Think about extending this to other builds and sets. Maybe a Necromancer wants to run Elemental Catalyst but prefers Stampede over Wall of Flame, or uses Detonating Siphon over Mystic. No problem, they can just craft a spell to fill the element gap. Or maybe a Sorc could slot EC with Fire Wall + Liquid Lightning + custom frost spell. It could open up so much more build freedom.

It wouldn't even be difficult to balance. Crafted spells could just use the baseline values of standardized skill types, without any additional effects. This would mean that similar class/weapon/guild skills would generally perform a little better. For example, someone could craft a single target magic DoT, similar to Entropy (20s, 2X a spammable damage), but it would not get the extra morph effects or mages guild passives. Its still useful because some players may want multiple DoTs like this, while others may not want to join the mages guild or collect books.

I suspect we'll also see some classics thrown in like open lock, feather and water walking.

talk about killing class identity, I didn't read through the whole thing but you described several sorc abilities.

a spell crafting system would have to take into consideration each class's passives toward improving certain damage types. when this is accounted for, the end result will be lackluster abilities.

francesinhalover

i'll take spellcrafting anyday to bards... ugh.

Tannus15

Dr_Con wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Spellcrafting cannot be that open ended, it will certainly have bounds on what can be made.

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

Single target spammables for each of the Destruction elements. Force Pulse has never felt very elemental to me.

This is a great example. Lightning is the worst in this case, as none of the weapon lines or classes have a good single target spammable. With spellcrafting we could theoretically make one (combining "runes" like Shock + Instant + Single Target + Ranged) and then use it with any weapon type or build.

And why stop at one? You could also make a single target shock DoT, a lightning ground AoE DoT, etc. Slot a few crafted spells along with Endless Fury, Lighting Flood, Thunderous Rage and Boundless Storm. Now you've got a fully cohesive electromancer build, and sets like Netch's Touch become viable.

Think about extending this to other builds and sets. Maybe a Necromancer wants to run Elemental Catalyst but prefers Stampede over Wall of Flame, or uses Detonating Siphon over Mystic. No problem, they can just craft a spell to fill the element gap. Or maybe a Sorc could slot EC with Fire Wall + Liquid Lightning + custom frost spell. It could open up so much more build freedom.

It wouldn't even be difficult to balance. Crafted spells could just use the baseline values of standardized skill types, without any additional effects. This would mean that similar class/weapon/guild skills would generally perform a little better. For example, someone could craft a single target magic DoT, similar to Entropy (20s, 2X a spammable damage), but it would not get the extra morph effects or mages guild passives. Its still useful because some players may want multiple DoTs like this, while others may not want to join the mages guild or collect books.

I suspect we'll also see some classics thrown in like open lock, feather and water walking.

talk about killing class identity, I didn't read through the whole thing but you described several sorc abilities.

a spell crafting system would have to take into consideration each class's passives toward improving certain damage types. when this is accounted for, the end result will be lackluster abilities.

i recommend reading the whole thing before commenting on the whole thing.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Featherfall

Negates Fall Damage for 10 seconds, falling into an area where you would normally take enviromental damage would still kill you

Detect Creatures

For 5 seconds see all enemies through walls

Fortify Stealth

For 10 seconds your detection radius while sneaking is reduced by X meters

SilverBride

kriegwar13 wrote: »

I think if they would implement spellcrafting the classes, skill lines should be revamped/overhauled as well.

The last thing I want to do is to redo all my skills on all my characters. I can't think of anything worse happening.

Dracan_Fontom

Working with the limitations of the system teased all the way back in like 2016 or something, there are four spells I would like to make.

Summon Greater Frost Atronach: Summon a powerful Frost Atronach within range. Within X meters, the inflicts X Ice Damage over Time and deals an AoE Ice Attack once every X seconds for X seconds. Ultimate.

Expansive Ebonyflesh: Shroud yourself and your allies in X range in pure Ebony, granting Major Resolve for X seconds. Area of Effect "Morph".

Prolonged Fire Cloak: You create a blazing inferno around the caster for X seconds which deals X fire damage to enemies around you within X range. Boosted Duration "Morph".

I'd do another one, but I don't remember remember what other "morphs" the teaser had.

rpa

I recall making a spell to damage self and heal self to cheese level destruction and restoration (and other cheesy spells) in some of the single player games. Maybe also Open from range spell or something. And short duration / high impact fortified action spells. It's been a while.
I have not seen the teaser but if spellcrafting allows players craft their own useful spells it may get cheesy quick.

amig186

A few ideas:

Some kind of aoe calm or sleep spell that would make mobs ignore you, so you can speedrun dungeons without potentially being stuck in combat and unable to use doors. Would only work on enemies with unshielded health bars, obviously.

A temporary summonable thing that deals damage of whatever element you choose, including poison and disease.

Not specifically a spell, but adding a 'Midas' trait to whatever spell you're creating to make enemies drop much more gold when killed with it.

A spell that makes your melee basic attacks ranged for a duration, like a weaker version of Overload with whatever element you want.

Waterwalking, not as a standalone spell but rather included in some other movement buff

Sacrificing all of your summoned monsters to restore a % of resources?

KilianDermoth

If you want ideas for spells / spell crafting have a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4xMc7O3Jho (it showcases only very few of the possibilities)

And here is a description: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibn5-tnw0Vs

And some spells could even interact with each other or make some interesting combinations. For example summoning boulders and using black hole.

Casul

1 slot for all typical major buffs would be nice.

Not the crazy ones obviously, but having resolve, brutality/sorcery, Savagery/Prophecy. That would be nice for PvP, open up a lot of slots.

Aelorin

Summon Fire Atronach
Summon Frost Atronach
Fireball
Frostbolt

Also if this would be like in Morrowind, you can choose the range, the duration if DOT, the width if AoE, add one spell, or 2, the more effects you add the more it will cost in resources.

It was really fun.

I think it would be best if only 1 crafted spell could be added to your bar.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Easy
Base
summon fire atronach

Then the other piece let you choose what it does

Is it a toggle(like matriarch)
Is it a ult?
Is it an aoe?
Is it a simple summon(like necro mage)
Etc

Rince and repeat with other spell

kriegwar13

SilverBride wrote: »

kriegwar13 wrote: »

I think if they would implement spellcrafting the classes, skill lines should be revamped/overhauled as well.

The last thing I want to do is to redo all my skills on all my characters. I can't think of anything worse happening.

If it is all about spell crafting, and if they should going to implement it, then yes, all skills should undergo respec.

When they do this, they might want to balance some effects of the skills PvE vs PvP like crowd control effects.

In my perspective, without the revamp/overhaul discussed, are just treating every character mages. using magicka all the time and creating variety of spells.

Instead they should make ESO just like the feels of previous elder scrolls franchise that even we are free to do whatever we want, the builds and all the skill lines, make classes a rewarding way to play by following your own class mastery. This will encourage players to create a diverse character.

We might need to redo all of our skills yeah will be a pain, yet how fun to play with vet dungeons + raids if you stick to a certain role, they way you want to play without ruining the immersion. This is a MMO after all, it is meant to be played with friends, especially the late game content.

SKN

Deter1UK wrote: »

As an old school D&D DM - I can think of many that would be 1-off situational or quest related, none of which would work in a fixed world MMO - I cant alter the world, so I can't make a potion to walk you through a wall or hover above the ground or develop an embarrassing odor that prevents NPCs from talking to you.

A game can only really give damage or heals or snare and ZOS have it covered. People who think they want to craft spells would probably be bitterly disappointed at the results.

What are you talking about. Spellcrafting has been a staple in TES series since Daggerfall (but was sadly ommited in Skyrim). What spellcrafting is (in TES), is not "create your own unique magic that no one else has ever seen before", but rather "pick from any spelleffect in the game, and then make alterations to how you want it to function".

Such as, changing a single-target spell to AOE, or making a fireball, into a frostball.

You could also apply multiple effects to one spell, such as making your fire\frostball also paralyze, or soultrap. But for the purpose of ESO, a singular effect is more realistic.

It absolutely can\could be done, even in an MMO. The issue is that it'd step on the toes of classes, and probably why it was shelved.

Deter1UK wrote: »

A game can only really give damage or heals or snare and ZOS have it covered.

Also, absolutely not. I assume you mean MMOs to which yeah, no. Still not. DDO is a great example of how you can have a deep-ish magic system even in an MMO, filled with utility spells\abilities (obviously from D&D but repurposed for the use in an real-time game).

Spells like Featherfall, Obscuring Mist, , Charm (temporary ally), Knock, Jump, Water Breathing, Detect secret doors and Dimension door.

For ESO:

Charm: PVE: get a temporary ally, PVP: Prevent enemy from being able to attack for x-time.

Detect Secret Doors: This is an issue of design. ESO not designing it's dungeons in the same way DDO does, otherwise, this would've fit in perfectly. As it is, you'd need to redesign the entire game, so not worth it.

Dimension Door: Teleport to dungeon entrance. It's kind of useless in DDO as well because of ability to recall (onyl difference is between waiting 30s to recall, or instantanious at spell-cast), but for ESO, most dungeons loop, and you can easily use wayshrines to get to places.

Featherfall: How would this not work, allow you to get through a lot of sections quicker, and ensure you don't die from unfortunate miss-aligned in water-falling cave sections.

Jump: Kind of like Detect Secret Doors, design issue where the game wasn't designed with verticality in mind. However an MMO with that in mind, Jump fits right in, such as DDO.

Knock essentially 'open' spell from TES (< Skyrim that is, as for Skyrim they wanted to enforce you to use the lockpicking minigame), doesn't work much for the same reason Skyrim removed it. They want you to use the minigame\resource (lockpick).

Obscure Mist: Great for Cyrodill\PVP, making a fog at target-location.

Water Breathing: You guessed it, design issue. if ESO had underwater sections, this would fit in. Since it doesn't, waterwalking becomes ESO's water breathing.



Anyway, my point was that utility-like spells absolutely do work in an fixed-world MMO, as long as the MMO is designed for their existence (which ESO isn't, obviously).