[SPOILERS] Good LBGT representation/writing in ESO

spartaxoxo

I liked the way they handled Aurelia and Isobel.

Isobel and Aurelia are very clearly childhood sweethearts. Isobel is depicted as a lesbian and Aurelia is bisexual. Isobel's quest revolves so much around Aurelia because she's letting her childhood crush go and they are both moving on to adulthood. Isobel and Aurelia may take different paths, but they will always love each other as friends.

I don't know how people think Isobel is just a good friend and not a lesbian. She gave her family's signet ring to Aurelia as a girl. She very clearly has a crush on Lyris. And she mentions that she "doesn't have the heart" to tell Jakarn that his flirting is a giant waste of time. She clearly finds him cute and is flattered by his flirting, but in the way people think flash mob proposals are cute. She has absolutely zero romantic attraction to him, a character known for being generally successful at pulling women and very handsome.

spartaxoxo

AScarlato wrote: »

I think someone mentioned a quest about a woman deciding between her husband and a female love interest in one of the removed threads. I haven't done that quest so I don't know what quest it was, but that could be an example of a bisexual character that breaks the mold of being viewed as excessive in their sexual activity. Then again, this may still be viewed as bad representation if it involves adultery instead.

That was me. And I wasn't referring to an existing quest but a way to introduce a bisexual characters that isn't excessively sexual.

I gave the example of Queen Aryenn having two suitors. One she's truly in love with, and one who would be better for the Dominion because they are a more competent and inspiring leader. So, no adultery. It was just a hypothetical.

AScarlato

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I liked the way they handled Aurelia and Isobel.

Isobel and Aurelia are very clearly childhood sweethearts. Isobel is a lesbian and Aurelia is bisexual. Isobel's quest revolves so much around Aurelia because she's letting her childhood crush go and they are both moving on to adulthood. Isobel and Aurelia may take different paths, but they will always ove each other as friends.

I don't know how people think Isobel is just a good friend and not a lesbian. She gave her family's signet ring to Aurelia as a girl. She very clearly has a crush on Lyris. And she mentions that she "doesn't have the heart" to tell Jakarn that his flirting is a giant waste of time. She clearly finds him cute and is flattered by his flirting, but in the way people think flash mob proposals are cute. She has absolutely zero romantic attraction to him, a character known for being generally successful at pulling women and very handsome.

I agree with most of this, especially the second paragraph, but somehow I read that Isobel's crush was one-sided and unrequited, and we were helping her move on from this. I'd have to pay closer attention next time to see if Aurelia was bisexual, or only cared about Isobel as a close friend/sister-like figure.

If I missed something though and Aurelia was bisexual, I think it would be a good example for representation.

spartaxoxo

AScarlato wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I liked the way they handled Aurelia and Isobel.

Isobel and Aurelia are very clearly childhood sweethearts. Isobel is a lesbian and Aurelia is bisexual. Isobel's quest revolves so much around Aurelia because she's letting her childhood crush go and they are both moving on to adulthood. Isobel and Aurelia may take different paths, but they will always ove each other as friends.

I don't know how people think Isobel is just a good friend and not a lesbian. She gave her family's signet ring to Aurelia as a girl. She very clearly has a crush on Lyris. And she mentions that she "doesn't have the heart" to tell Jakarn that his flirting is a giant waste of time. She clearly finds him cute and is flattered by his flirting, but in the way people think flash mob proposals are cute. She has absolutely zero romantic attraction to him, a character known for being generally successful at pulling women and very handsome.

I agree with most of this, especially the second paragraph, but somehow I read that Isobel's crush was one-sided and unrequited, and we were helping her move on from this. I'd have to pay closer attention next time to see if Aurelia was bisexual, or only cared about Isobel as a close friend/sister-like figure.

If I missed something though and Aurelia was bisexual, I think it would be a good example for representation.

I got the impression the feeling was mutual from the quest, but that Aurelia had moved on long before Isobel and taken her friendship for granted. Aurelia also had both male and female suitors competing for her hand in the tournament.

AScarlato

spartaxoxo wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I liked the way they handled Aurelia and Isobel.

Isobel and Aurelia are very clearly childhood sweethearts. Isobel is a lesbian and Aurelia is bisexual. Isobel's quest revolves so much around Aurelia because she's letting her childhood crush go and they are both moving on to adulthood. Isobel and Aurelia may take different paths, but they will always ove each other as friends.

I don't know how people think Isobel is just a good friend and not a lesbian. She gave her family's signet ring to Aurelia as a girl. She very clearly has a crush on Lyris. And she mentions that she "doesn't have the heart" to tell Jakarn that his flirting is a giant waste of time. She clearly finds him cute and is flattered by his flirting, but in the way people think flash mob proposals are cute. She has absolutely zero romantic attraction to him, a character known for being generally successful at pulling women and very handsome.

I agree with most of this, especially the second paragraph, but somehow I read that Isobel's crush was one-sided and unrequited, and we were helping her move on from this. I'd have to pay closer attention next time to see if Aurelia was bisexual, or only cared about Isobel as a close friend/sister-like figure.

If I missed something though and Aurelia was bisexual, I think it would be a good example for representation.

I got the impression the feeling was mutual from the quest, but that Aurelia had moved on long before Isobel and taken her friendship for granted. Aurelia also had both male and female suitors competing for her hand in the tournament.

Thanks! I am sure I’ll do the quest again given how companion unlocks work and will pay closer attention.

Treselegant

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I liked the way they handled Aurelia and Isobel.

Isobel and Aurelia are very clearly childhood sweethearts. Isobel is depicted as a lesbian and Aurelia is bisexual. Isobel's quest revolves so much around Aurelia because she's letting her childhood crush go and they are both moving on to adulthood. Isobel and Aurelia may take different paths, but they will always love each other as friends.

I don't know how people think Isobel is just a good friend and not a lesbian. She gave her family's signet ring to Aurelia as a girl. She very clearly has a crush on Lyris. And she mentions that she "doesn't have the heart" to tell Jakarn that his flirting is a giant waste of time. She clearly finds him cute and is flattered by his flirting, but in the way people think flash mob proposals are cute. She has absolutely zero romantic attraction to him, a character known for being generally successful at pulling women and very handsome.

I felt the storyline with Aurelia dragged a bit. Isobel seems to come to term with her crush and moving on/growing up very early on in the quest chain but then we continue to follow Aurelia around on her misadventures for another two quests before again coming to the same point. It just felt a bit insubstantial in comparison to some of the other companion quests.

spartaxoxo

Treselegant wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I liked the way they handled Aurelia and Isobel.

Isobel and Aurelia are very clearly childhood sweethearts. Isobel is depicted as a lesbian and Aurelia is bisexual. Isobel's quest revolves so much around Aurelia because she's letting her childhood crush go and they are both moving on to adulthood. Isobel and Aurelia may take different paths, but they will always love each other as friends.

I don't know how people think Isobel is just a good friend and not a lesbian. She gave her family's signet ring to Aurelia as a girl. She very clearly has a crush on Lyris. And she mentions that she "doesn't have the heart" to tell Jakarn that his flirting is a giant waste of time. She clearly finds him cute and is flattered by his flirting, but in the way people think flash mob proposals are cute. She has absolutely zero romantic attraction to him, a character known for being generally successful at pulling women and very handsome.

I felt the storyline with Aurelia dragged a bit. Isobel seems to come to term with her crush and moving on/growing up very early on in the quest chain but then we continue to follow Aurelia around on her misadventures for another two quests before again coming to the same point. It just felt a bit insubstantial in comparison to some of the other companion quests.

I think that Isobel's companion story is unique because it isn't really her story. It's a couple's story. They were childhood sweethearts who needed to move on from one another, and figure out what they truly wanted in life because they grew into adulthood and wanted different things in life. Despite Isobel having the stronger feelings for Aurelia, she moved on easier because she had a real purpose in life. She wanted to be a traveling knight. Always had. It was her grander purpose, which meant moving on from staying in place with Aurelia.

Aurelia couldn't move on too until she found her own purpose, and when she was solving the mystery of Isobel's ring it wasn't really about Isobel, but about self discovery.

Aurelia's story doesn't conclude until she has gained purpose and meaning to her life, which turned out not to be romantic at all but rather a job for her to do that she enjoyed and was actually decent at it. That she found romance as well, with someone who happened to be a man, was just the cherry on top of her sundae.

Since it was a couple's story and not Isobel alone's story, I don't feel it would have been complete without Aurelia's part of the journey too.

That's my personal take on it.

Treselegant

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Treselegant wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I liked the way they handled Aurelia and Isobel.

Isobel and Aurelia are very clearly childhood sweethearts. Isobel is depicted as a lesbian and Aurelia is bisexual. Isobel's quest revolves so much around Aurelia because she's letting her childhood crush go and they are both moving on to adulthood. Isobel and Aurelia may take different paths, but they will always love each other as friends.

I don't know how people think Isobel is just a good friend and not a lesbian. She gave her family's signet ring to Aurelia as a girl. She very clearly has a crush on Lyris. And she mentions that she "doesn't have the heart" to tell Jakarn that his flirting is a giant waste of time. She clearly finds him cute and is flattered by his flirting, but in the way people think flash mob proposals are cute. She has absolutely zero romantic attraction to him, a character known for being generally successful at pulling women and very handsome.

I felt the storyline with Aurelia dragged a bit. Isobel seems to come to term with her crush and moving on/growing up very early on in the quest chain but then we continue to follow Aurelia around on her misadventures for another two quests before again coming to the same point. It just felt a bit insubstantial in comparison to some of the other companion quests.

I think that Isobel's companion story is unique because it isn't really her story. It's a couple's story. They were childhood sweethearts who needed to move on from one another, and figure out what they truly wanted in life. Despite Isobel having the stronger feelings for Aurelia, she moved on easier because she had a real purpose in life. Aurelia couldn't move on too until she found her own purpose, and when she was solving the mystery of Isobel's ring it wasn't really about Isobel, but about self discovery.

Aurelia's story doesn't conclude until she has gained purpose and meaning to her life, which turned out not to be romantic at all but rather a job for her to do that she enjoyed and was actually decent at it. That she found romance as well, with a man, was just the cherry on top of her sundae.

Since it was a couple's story and Isobel alone's story, I don't feel it would have been complete without Aurelia's part of the journey too.

That's my personal take on it.

Maybe. When I played through her quests I'd just come away from playing yet another game where the lesbian character was hung up on their ex which, along with them being in a toxic relationship, seems a bit of a trope at the moment. I don't think I've played through a game storyline with two women together where it ends happily in anything recently. So there was an element 'oh this again' as to the storyline. I so wanted Isobel to find her independence away from Aurelia and get out into the world but the story kept dragging her back. Perhaps I can see what the story was aiming for but it fell flat for me.

kaushad

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Aurelia also had both male and female suitors competing for her hand in the tournament.

Now that poses a question about arranged courtship in Tamriel. Auriela didn't choose her suitors. If Auriela weren't bisexual, would her mother have specified whether male or female suitors were eligible as opposed to in real life, in which it would be just men.

spartaxoxo

kaushad wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Aurelia also had both male and female suitors competing for her hand in the tournament.

Now that poses a question about arranged courtship in Tamriel. Auriela didn't choose her suitors. If Auriela weren't bisexual, would her mother have specified whether male or female suitors were eligible as opposed to in real life, in which it would be just men.

Yeah. I suspect that if Aurelia weren't bisexual, the suitors would have all been the gender that Aurelia is into. So if she was a lesbian, it would have been all women. And if she was straight, all males. Her mother wasn't trying to be cruel. She was trying both to protect Aurelia and improve her lot in life.

Syldras

kaushad wrote: »

Smashing, everyone in fiction is contentedly single and families are groups of close friends who occasionally receive babies from storks or cliff racers.

Babies? Have you ever seen a child in ESO?

AScarlato

Syldras wrote: »

kaushad wrote: »

Smashing, everyone in fiction is contentedly single and families are groups of close friends who occasionally receive babies from storks or cliff racers.

Babies? Have you ever seen a child in ESO?

So....... an NPC yelled at me, called me "heartless" for "killing a child just because they were bitten" in a vampire story. The NPC was a full ass adult haha. It took me a bit to figure out what they were talking about, as I was like "Where exactly in all of ESO is there a child? Let alone one I killed?"

Dr_Con

kaushad wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Aurelia also had both male and female suitors competing for her hand in the tournament.

Now that poses a question about arranged courtship in Tamriel. Auriela didn't choose her suitors. If Auriela weren't bisexual, would her mother have specified whether male or female suitors were eligible as opposed to in real life, in which it would be just men.

When you do the intro quest, you'll find that the mother is accepting of her daughter. If people sped through the quest dialogue and left the quest area... they probably wouldn't have caught this next part.

The mother needed to do this due to an old deal with a witch/druid to ensure that her daughter would have a [good and easy life]. The bargain was struck shortly after Aurelia's father died, such that Aurelia would either need to become a knight, or win the favor of one, by the time Aurelia reached her mother's age at the time of the deal being struck. Isobel, as you may know, was not a knight at the start of the quest. She earned the title at the end of the quest, and used the boon from the mother to release Aurelia from the obligation to marry a knight (which is definitely one way to earn the favor of a knight). In reality, that was an unneeded boon, as Aurelia already had the favor of Isobel, but if you're granting a wish and the wish is free, then it's extremely easy to accept. This deal/dynamic, of course, is unknown to Isobel and Aurelia, but it is the motivation behind this specific arrangement the mother made, and the mother even let there be extra time before the "deadline" came to pass, as it were.

I believe the mother said something about the witch/druid being present in the crowd too, and there was something about a wink, so she was likely looking for the reaction of the person who she had a deal with before formally accepting the request. In any event, the intro quest ended on quite a positive note, the mother wasn't being cruel in her actions, she simply wanted her daughter to not have to endure specific hardships.

---

Another story to note is of the Argonian couple in Murkmire- Chal-Maht and Kud-Nakal. Chal-Maht was Female and underwent transition through the Hist and became Male. Kud-Nakal was Male and underwent transition through the Hist to become female. I feel much more could have been done with this story in the way of story telling as it is imperfect/too short, but it was a neat little introduction to the biology of Argonians and the magic of the Hist. In fact, we come across a lot of exposition to Argonian mating rituals and the ideas of life/living, rebirth and interconnectivity in this chapter.

I will acknowledge that this quest contributes to worldbuilding in Murkmire and TES franchise as a whole, which should be done more often as a primary focus. The lack of the the "nothing can keep us apart" and "I love you no matter who you are" tropes are replaced with the acceptance that the Hist knows best and dry comments like "I want to be together because we would have very becoming hatchlings."

In this instance, the Hist knew that these two belong together even if they weren't born in their right bodies, and helped reassign them. It makes the Argonians involved seem powerless to the Hist's will, and makes it less of a LBGT story as it seems Chal-Maht would not have bonded with Kud-Nakal unless the change happened. In all honesty this quest a lot in such a short time, but it does point out the peculiarities of these individuals & the different tribal mating rituals and their importance.

If anything, I think seeing a longing for Kud's companionship from Chal, with a reveal of Kud's transition, rather than exposition from Chal, could have made this a more memorable story. I don't personally see this as a shining example of representation, but I can't argue that a lot in the ways of world building was done here, even if some of the quest comments seemed odd.

kaushad

Syldras wrote: »

kaushad wrote: »

Smashing, everyone in fiction is contentedly single and families are groups of close friends who occasionally receive babies from storks or cliff racers.

Babies? Have you ever seen a child in ESO?

Fine, they can deliver (near) fully grown adults who might be in their twenties or late teens, like that lad who gets kidnapped by a winged twilight somewhere around Vos. Perhaps gryphons for young Pahmar and Senche-raht.

Dr_Con wrote: »

I believe the mother said something about the witch/druid being present in the crowd too

In fact, we can meet her in the crowd, or just behind it. It's worth speaking to her just before Isobel at that point the quest.

Syldras

kaushad wrote: »

Fine, they can deliver (near) fully grown adults who might be in their twenties or late teens, like that lad who gets kidnapped by a winged twilight somewhere around Vos.

I assume he wasn't really kidnapped, but, uhm, about to be delivered to a different family.

FrancisCrawford

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Treselegant wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I liked the way they handled Aurelia and Isobel.

Isobel and Aurelia are very clearly childhood sweethearts. Isobel is depicted as a lesbian and Aurelia is bisexual. Isobel's quest revolves so much around Aurelia because she's letting her childhood crush go and they are both moving on to adulthood. Isobel and Aurelia may take different paths, but they will always love each other as friends.

I don't know how people think Isobel is just a good friend and not a lesbian. She gave her family's signet ring to Aurelia as a girl. She very clearly has a crush on Lyris. And she mentions that she "doesn't have the heart" to tell Jakarn that his flirting is a giant waste of time. She clearly finds him cute and is flattered by his flirting, but in the way people think flash mob proposals are cute. She has absolutely zero romantic attraction to him, a character known for being generally successful at pulling women and very handsome.

I felt the storyline with Aurelia dragged a bit. Isobel seems to come to term with her crush and moving on/growing up very early on in the quest chain but then we continue to follow Aurelia around on her misadventures for another two quests before again coming to the same point. It just felt a bit insubstantial in comparison to some of the other companion quests.

I think that Isobel's companion story is unique because it isn't really her story. It's a couple's story. They were childhood sweethearts who needed to move on from one another, and figure out what they truly wanted in life because they grew into adulthood and wanted different things in life. Despite Isobel having the stronger feelings for Aurelia, she moved on easier because she had a real purpose in life. She wanted to be a traveling knight. Always had. It was her grander purpose, which meant moving on from staying in place with Aurelia.

Aurelia couldn't move on too until she found her own purpose, and when she was solving the mystery of Isobel's ring it wasn't really about Isobel, but about self discovery.

Aurelia's story doesn't conclude until she has gained purpose and meaning to her life, which turned out not to be romantic at all but rather a job for her to do that she enjoyed and was actually decent at it. That she found romance as well, with someone who happened to be a man, was just the cherry on top of her sundae.

Since it was a couple's story and not Isobel alone's story, I don't feel it would have been complete without Aurelia's part of the journey too.

That's my personal take on it.

1. My take that having Isobel's story really be about Aurelia just makes sense from a game standpoint. As a practical matter, your companion never changes over the course of your character's relationship with them. So having Isobel's quests really be about something other than her personal development was just a convenient choice.

2. As for the idea of a quest centered on somebody deciding between a man and a woman -- that sort of does happen, in Rivenspire. In fact, your character makes the choice at the end of the quest as to who the woman should go with. The male choice is socially more suitable, but for reasons that have to do with prior affiancing and class rather than gender.

The only reason I qualified that with a "sort of" is that it's a combat-heavy quest, with the relationship-settling aspect being an afterthought once the violence-related problems were resolved.

4. It's hard within game story-telling parameters to show that a character is bisexual without giving them at least 2 romantic interests. So yes -- average bisexual characters will be more promiscuous than average male ones.

4. As I've said before, I think it's crystal clear that Isobel is lesbian. I found it less clear as to whether Aurelia ever returned those feelings. HOWEVER, Aurelia's reaction to the tourney seemed to be more about the specific choices of spouse than that one of the contestants was female, so she seems at least bi-friendly.

5. One of the worst scumbags in High Isle was bisexual. I can understand complaining about that.

6. The effete fan-waving Breton nobles in High Isle are meant to be annoying, I think, and the goal of having them be annoying is met all too well.

Syldras

I'm really wondering why male npcs using a fan is considered a gender/diversity thing. I've seen mentionings of that coming up several times in these discussions (also in the few threads lately that had been deleted). I think, it's more a nobility thing with Bretons, and with Dunmer (as I've seen Danel Telleno being mentioned), well, it might be just... normal? Dunmer culture has heavy East Asian influences and in many Asian countries, using a fan was totally common regardless of gender. In ancient Japan, there were even fans with metal ribs used as weapons:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessenjutsu
It doesn't make sense judging a different culture (fictitious or real) by today's Western norms.

fall0athboy

Soarora wrote: »

I haven’t done many of the iconic quests but cases that stick out to me:
The wlw couple in the Vvardenfell main quest. I believe it was the first time I saw an lgbtq+ relationship in ESO and how it was just… a woman mentioned her wife offhandedly. That was amazing to see and I still think about it. I unfortunately don’t remember their names, though.

Alchemy, of course. I’ve had friends comment on how much her story means to them and it’s beautiful to see. A great example of why representation is important.

The Firepot delve I believe also has a wlw couple. Despite how much I may complain about this season, I liked seeing the care the two women had for each other.

Isobel I think is also a good case from this season. I haven’t finished all her quests but I think how she is written is a great way to show someone who is absolutely a lesbian, since you can’t assume based off relationships that both members involved are lesbian or gay. Being sure keeps people from stepping on each others toes in headcanons.

There’s also a mlm couple in Fargrave! One is the innkeeper and the other is in another room. The innkeeper gushes over his beloved, it’s adorable.

I do hope they actually keep Isobel's sexuality if they ever actually do companion romances, as opposed to being "player-sexual".

The Vvardenfell duo are Varona Beloren and Overseer Shiralas. They appear again in Murkmire!

Katheriah wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

I can't say I agree here. Raz has been a very open character from the beginning, and introducing this so late into the game just seems like a throwaway. It would make sense that he has no preference either way, but developed an attraction to an individual through an interaction, but to develop an attraction to a specific type as a throwaway comment is not a good example of LBGT representation/writing, but this is subjective. If you truly believe this is good writing, I won't be able to change your mind- however I believe some LBGT authors might take my side on this one.

Yeah I agree. I know Raz as the kitty with raunchy remarks towards females for years and years. This feels like pinkwashing and we deserve better than that. Plus it feels like every bi char is made super mega flirty towards everyone. I get it, but I don't personally believe it's good representation.

This game does have some good, original stories though, especially the earlier writing.

I do think that's the issue with writing a bisexual character:

Either you write them as flirty with everyone and play into the stereotype, thus getting flak.

Or you just offhanded write them as somehow just confirming them as bisexual. Which will also get flak for "you're not showing them as bisexual, you're just saying they are and hoping for brownie points".

AScarlato wrote: »

I spoke with my friend in the LGBT community this morning about Raz, and his feedback was, and I'll quote,

"he had such bi vibes im shocked anyone is taken off guard".

I have to agree.

What are "bi vibes"?

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I liked the way they handled Aurelia and Isobel.

Isobel and Aurelia are very clearly childhood sweethearts. Isobel is depicted as a lesbian and Aurelia is bisexual. Isobel's quest revolves so much around Aurelia because she's letting her childhood crush go and they are both moving on to adulthood. Isobel and Aurelia may take different paths, but they will always love each other as friends.

I don't know how people think Isobel is just a good friend and not a lesbian. She gave her family's signet ring to Aurelia as a girl. She very clearly has a crush on Lyris. And she mentions that she "doesn't have the heart" to tell Jakarn that his flirting is a giant waste of time. She clearly finds him cute and is flattered by his flirting, but in the way people think flash mob proposals are cute. She has absolutely zero romantic attraction to him, a character known for being generally successful at pulling women and very handsome.

It's entirely possible I'm misinterpreting it, but what led you to think Aurelia is bisexual? I read their questline as "Isobel is lesbian, Aurelia is the straight friend she has had a mega crush on for ages".

Syldras

fall0athboy wrote: »

I do hope they actually keep Isobel's sexuality if they ever actually do companion romances, as opposed to being "player-sexual".

It would be more realistic. Although I can see that some players would complain if their favorite wasn't available to them because of that. And probably most characters available would be straight.

fall0athboy wrote: »

I do think that's the issue with writing a bisexual character:
Either you write them as flirty with everyone and play into the stereotype, thus getting flak.
Or you just offhanded write them as somehow just confirming them as bisexual. Which will also get flak for "you're not showing them as bisexual, you're just saying they are and hoping for brownie points"

It would be possible to have someone going to a place or an event (a soiree, a fair, or something like that) saying they hope to meet a nice person there (instead of man or woman). I don't see how that's any different than gay characters just mentioning their same-sex partner in dialogue. It seems okay to me that way, completely natural, nothing special in Tamriel.

Or they could design a quest about an old widower who wants you to fetch you something for the grave of his early deceased first husband, because he wants to do some special memorial ceremony on the 50th anniversary of his husband's death together with his current wife.

spartaxoxo

@fall0athboy

Sorry. I only check this sub forum occasionally and usually only lurk, so I didn't see this thread until now.

The reason I read Aurelia as Bisexual is because of lines like these. It made me read them as childhood crushes.

I do hope my Isobel didn't punch him. She's not usually the punching sort, but he is such a … well. A ninny!

Isobel is so happy and excited to go off adventuring. I didn't think about her leaving me. Er, us.

She also accepted that signet ring from Isobel, and went through insane lengths to make things better when she realized it wasn't just some innocent part of whatever they had going on in childhood but could do real damage to the Veloise house.

And then at the tournament, Aurelia's mother has both men and women competing for her hand. While they weren't really Aurelia's picks, I don't think her mom would have been so cruel as to marry her off to someone she couldn't possibly ever grow to be happy with. Her mom was trying to keep her safe, not be cruel. Aurelia's complaints about the female suitor is that she doesn't view Aurelia "as a woman," just money. Aurelia doesn't want to be with any of the suitors and makes it really clear, but she's significantly less angry and spiteful towards the female suitor.

Elendir2am

No Little-Leaf.....

I hate, that Little-Leaf died for Cassipia sooo, I am not sure how their example will get me on your boat. I cannot listen her marvellous lute with my main char anymore and her brilliant jokes are subject to past .

StolenEyes

I’m only just finishing the High Isle quest line for the first time as I took a break for a while. I completed Raz’s quest last night and I admit him suddenly mentioning finding a nice Druid boy came seemingly out of nowhere and made me raise an eyebrow. The inclusive writing in ESO has been excellent, always nuanced and well crafted. But having a well-established character such as Raz suddenly make such an admission after so long feels unnecessary.

wilykcat

[snip]

ESO is still a fun game though. I don't pay attention to the quest so much or the characters' personal lifestyles. I just play the game for my own enjoyment.

Congrats on being inclusive like all other online games though. My friends in those communities are very proud 👍

[Edited for Bashing]

jle30303

And in Azandar's initial companion quest... he always refers to his (now deceased, as we find out during the quest) friend Martina as They, rather than She. Which seems to make Martina officially non-binary.

There does not appear to have been a relationship there, just a working partnership which broke up (because as Azandar says, "I'm an arse, Martina put up with me for five years and that was longer than anyone else" - refreshingly self-aware)... but it's the first time I can remember seeing a non-binary character in the game, even though they're dead before we meet them...

Soarora

jle30303 wrote: »

And in Azandar's initial companion quest... he always refers to his (now deceased, as we find out during the quest) friend Martina as They, rather than She. Which seems to make Martina officially non-binary.

There does not appear to have been a relationship there, just a working partnership which broke up (because as Azandar says, "I'm an arse, Martina put up with me for five years and that was longer than anyone else" - refreshingly self-aware)... but it's the first time I can remember seeing a non-binary character in the game, even though they're dead before we meet them...

There's a character in Blackwood

who's daedric and trying to find themselves. The characters around them refer to them as they/them and you have the option to suggest Alchemy takes them under her wing. Their name is Cres. It's a bit questionable since they're a watchling rather than a human but at least they're alive and it struck me as ZOS adding nonbinary rep with plausible deniability or as some kind of metaphor.

fall0athboy

jle30303 wrote: »

And in Azandar's initial companion quest... he always refers to his (now deceased, as we find out during the quest) friend Martina as They, rather than She. Which seems to make Martina officially non-binary.

There does not appear to have been a relationship there, just a working partnership which broke up (because as Azandar says, "I'm an arse, Martina put up with me for five years and that was longer than anyone else" - refreshingly self-aware)... but it's the first time I can remember seeing a non-binary character in the game, even though they're dead before we meet them...

I'm actually really annoyed they didn't have Vivec use they/them pronouns.

It suits the character.

Soarora

fall0athboy wrote: »

jle30303 wrote: »

And in Azandar's initial companion quest... he always refers to his (now deceased, as we find out during the quest) friend Martina as They, rather than She. Which seems to make Martina officially non-binary.

There does not appear to have been a relationship there, just a working partnership which broke up (because as Azandar says, "I'm an arse, Martina put up with me for five years and that was longer than anyone else" - refreshingly self-aware)... but it's the first time I can remember seeing a non-binary character in the game, even though they're dead before we meet them...

I'm actually really annoyed they didn't have Vivec use they/them pronouns.

It suits the character.

Canonically, Vivec uses primarily he/him pronouns however in a general sense he uses he/she. He wishes to be both sides of a duality in all aspects and is modeled after a 1/2 male, 1/2 female god. As himself, he is intersex representation (which intersex people do not owe anyone non-binary-ness) however one could argue that Kirkbride allegedly acts rather gross towards those who are trans and those who are intersex (from what little I have seen) so it may or may not be good representation.

PrinceShroob

fall0athboy wrote: »

I'm actually really annoyed they didn't have Vivec use they/them pronouns.

It suits the character.

Vivec is consistently referred to using he/him pronouns in Morrowind, save for in Varieties of Faith in the Empire, which uses he/she. Online followed suit using he/him to refer to Vivec, though in Necrom, one book, The Spires of the 34th Sermon, uses they/them.

ArchMikem

Something I'm kinda maybe picking up on with Scruut, the Watchling. Magister Meln referred to Scruut as "She", but the Voice Actor makes it iffy. I dunno, could be reading way too into it and it's just a Female Watchling with a rough voice...would Daedric Watchers even have Sexes?

fall0athboy

ArchMikem wrote: »

Something I'm kinda maybe picking up on with Scruut, the Watchling. Magister Meln referred to Scruut as "She", but the Voice Actor makes it iffy. I dunno, could be reading way too into it and it's just a Female Watchling with a rough voice...would Daedric Watchers even have Sexes?

Voice actor is Heather Gonzalez.