The wardens and the orcs

marcel91x

So according to the lore book called: "Lore:Who Are the Wardens?" it is stated that wardens are worshipers of Y'ffre.

Let me quote a portion of the lore book: "...in my own meticulous research, I have certainly found some similarities between the Spinners and Wardens. Like the Wood Elf priests, these guardians appear to have a close connection with the god Y'ffre, the deity of song and forest.

However, in my opinion, this is where the similarities end, and just as I did with the famous coven in my seminal work "The Glenmoril Wyrd," I shall take it upon myself to dispel the many myths and misunderstandings associated with these warriors.

First and foremost, the Spinners are not militant or violent, preferring to allow others to fight for them and Valenwood, and to instead take on an advisory, scholarly, or priestly role within Bosmer society. By comparison, Wardens appear to be more than willing to shed blood to protect the wilds, and there are many reports of them attacking individuals, gangs, and even entire outposts that have done some harm to Y'ffre's realm."

So does that mean if you are an orc that decides to be the warden class that you do not worship Malacath (what usually orcs do) and instead worship Y'ffre? It's really strange to imagine an orc that denies Malacath and picks another god they worship. So all wardens are connected to Y'ffre?

I would so love to ask ZeniMax in an interview that question because I fail to find direct information on the true origin of the warden class. All I found is this book and it hints that it started with the bosmer and is a power given by Y'ffre. So how can orcs be explained as warden?

Jaimeh

You can still RP an Orc warden imo, because their ice/frost skill line doesn't fit the forest guardian archetype completely, and since Wrothgar is snowy, it can make sense for an Orc to be a warden class, even if they do worship another deity.

marcel91x

But if a warden worships Y'ffre and orcs worship Malacath wouldn't that make you a non-Malacath worshipping orc?

Now in Online:Who Are the Wardens?

It also says: ...And what of the Green Pact? Do the Wardens adhere to the ancient Wood Elf tradition? With the exception, of course, of those who are both Warden and Wood Elf, this does not appear to be the case either. In my experience, most Wardens are, in fact, more than willing to make full use of nature's bounty in order to survive, including partaking of both its plant and animal life.

Finally, the Spinners are found almost exclusively within the confines of Valenwood, and they rarely venture far beyond the protection of its ancient forests. Wardens, however, appear all over Tamriel, with the most recent reports placing some on the island of Vvardenfell.

These are my early findings on the Wardens of Tamriel. They are a unique and mysterious group, similar to the Spinners, but also distinctly different. It is clear to me that greater academic inquiry is required, and I am sure upon further investigation, the rest of Phrastus of Elinhir's outrageous claims will be proven false (as they so often are.)

So they are different than the Spinners, they do not follow the green pact, they can be found on Vvardenfell too but there is no sign or any indication that Y'ffre is worshipped there. The fact that they appear in this lore in Vvardenfell seems to indicate that wardens could originate from there? Maybe this is why the skills include a cliff racer (only found in Morrowind I believe). But what does the ending with: "...Phrastus of Elinhir's outrageous claims will be proven false (as they so often are.)..." mean? That maybe they do not worship Y'ffre? That they are not related to the Spinners?

Yea warden lore is a big confusing mess I tried to find more info but barely found anything in exception of this.

Supreme_Atromancer

Yeah, its my opinion that unfortunately, Wardens were a single answer to several, quite disparate demands- a frost-based class, a druid class, "Vvardenfell marketing", staff- tanking. I guess it was a matter of "chuck it all in and let the lore guy sort it out." How you're meant to make some sort of narrative around that, I have no idea. But I think a lot of people feel like its pretty unsatisfying.

Given that, I'd say if you want to play an Orc Warden and give him some sort of story, I'd say you just need to find a way to make it work. Here are some thoughts:

I don't think every single orc ever born worships Malacath, in exclusion of all others.

There are several things about Wrothgar that you could lean into: firstly, Wrothgar is High Rock, and as we've recently seen, ancient Breton traditions honoured Yffre. Secondly, Wrothgar is wild and remote. While orcs living in the relatively urban places such as Orsinium don't need to directly deal with the elements, many living in the more remote locations would have to. Thirdly, the orcs of Wrothgar might be uniquely able to take advantage of the disparate themes of "ice" and "wildness" given the elemental and wild nature of their northern homeland.

The orcs and the reachfolk were said to both use "wild magic", the latter learning from the former. I think there is room for some cross-fertilization. I think there could be room for both Malacath AND Yffre in the heart of an Orc who is exposed to the necessity of both. Your Orc's mentor might have been a wizened Reachman, or simply from a line of village shamans who take advantages of the practical aspects of nature magic, while down-playing its ultimate source.

Hope this helps.

Aliyavana

There are multiple gods in the TES universe and you can worship more than one. The powers you use as a Warden will be from Y'ffre however, but the ice magic can pass as regular cyromancy.

marcel91x

Anyone has any example of orcs or lore sources that say that orcs are allowed to worship anyone besides Malacath? Do such examples exist?

Eporem

for what it is worth, this Orc seems to be tapping into Nature's, Y'ffre's? majic..

Supreme_Atromancer

marcel91x wrote: »

Anyone has any example of orcs or lore sources that say that orcs are allowed to worship anyone besides Malacath? Do such examples exist?

For argument's sake, is there any lore source that says they can't?

For further argument, has the lore covered every possibility? Every exception? In a way that makes an Orcish Yffre worshipper seem unlikely? RPG developers tend to avoid this sort of thing- most want to leave things open enough so that if someone wants to find a way to make some interesting concept work, they can.

And another point; who is in a position to "allow" worship of anyone besides Malacath anyway? Typical orcish society would exercise effective control- through ostracision and violence. So I'd have to say that based on my knowledge of the lore, if you wanted to play an orc from a traditional society, don't make them follow Yffre. Either imagine another way in which an Orc would come into those powers, and how he or she is tolerated, or just abandon the idea altogether.

But what about instances outside that control? What about the Orc who chooses to leave his or her village because they feel like Yffre *is* correct to worship? Consider Ghorbash the Ironhand, a Stronghold Orc from TES5 that you can take on as a companion. Orc society wouldn't allow him to leave: they'd frown on him if he just abandoned his duties. He recognises this, and feels very strongly bound to it. But, he has a deep-seated adventurous streak born from his days in the Imperial Legion. If you sell it to him, he'll actually cave and go with you regardless of what lore says about orcs.

What about Orcs living very distant, or in particularly wild areas, where nature isn't just an inconvenience, and respect for nature is an actual imperative?

Not to belittle your problem; I'm someone, when crafting a backstory for my character tend to play it straight, and use queues what's actually written in the lore, and work out what will fit comfortably within that framework. I don't see the value in going too hard against type, because what's the point of a world in the first place if that's what you want to do.

And maybe it would be good if the writers, when dealing with something so fundamental in the game could write in such a way that you can easily see how certain societies and races fit into that class's framework. At the same time- and this is just my feeling and opinion, here- the classes are soooo contrived and MMOey that I'd almost prefer they didn't contort the lore any worse to try and make it fit because I suspect that it amount to pretty much "anything goes" which is bad because it scrubs away nuance for the sake of a boring, generic world more designed for class balance than interesting story-telling.

For me, that means pretty much sticking to a Breton magicka sorcerer and pretending she isn't pretty much limited to only lightning, because that class is one of the only ones that feel like they match an archetype well. For others it means trying to ignore the lore or forcing it to fit somehow. Akaviri Dragonknight can work as a firemage if you just ignore the fluff, for example. For you? It might mean finding a niche that doesn't contradict specific lore and praying that no developer DOES comes along with some awkward or contrived excuse designed only to sell more stuff that is only going to ruin the freedom that you actually have right now.

Hope this helps.

marcel91x

Yes, I think if classes would have been like skill trees that you pick: DK = fire and stone magic, some poison skills, Templar = healing and holy spells, Warden = nature and frost magic, the others = ...... then you are not tied to any worship of any aedra or daedra and you get more RP freedom because you select a class for just the skills and not their lore/background. Yea this limits freedom sadly. In other Elder Scrolls games you just picked a weapon or magic school you wanted to level and specialized in that by maxing it and learning spells of a higher level of that school for example. In ESO you have unfortunately some lore attached to the classes that sometimes like in the Warden seem to be connected with an worship or connection to an aedra.

tsaescishoeshiner

marcel91x wrote: »

Anyone has any example of orcs or lore sources that say that orcs are allowed to worship anyone besides Malacath? Do such examples exist?

Not sure what's meant by "allowed" here. Who would stop them?

We meet so many orcs or worship other deities, sometimes specifically meaning that they DON'T worship Malacath, and sometimes not specifying whether they worship him on the side. If you want sources, play through or recall the quests in Stormhaven or Wrothgar to start. Plus, given how multicultural and intercultural most settlements in ESO are, it would be odd if every orc (or even nearly every orc) worshiped Malacath. One of the nice things about TES games is that they don't treat races or cultures as monoliths, but full of individuals with very different perspectives! (most of the time)

And while that lore book says Wardens have a "close connection with the god Y'ffre", it doesn't say they all worship Y'ffre. It also specifies that wardens lack central organization. It says many are very solitary, members of other groups, and even describes one who's in the Dark Brotherhood, a group where many worship Sithis.

Many of the NPCs who use Warden skills (shalks, illusory bears, summoning swarms) come from different cultures and even sometimes specific cults.

I'm also basing this all on the fact that the Templar class lorebooks mention that Templar magic is based off on the Resolutes of Stendarr, but that not everyone who uses that spellcasting style is a member of their group or worships Stendarr. So, IMO Wardens are far from being shoehorned into Y'ffre worship, even if their magic is meant to be Y'ffre-inspired.

Mesite

Are all of the lore books reliable? Or are the writers biased? I never read the books - did you see what reading did to Vanus Aquilarian?

Beffagorn

Because some book says Wardens worship, or at the very least, draw power from Y'free doesn't mean ALL wardens do it. It just means that the Wardens mentioned in that book do. Especially when the contents of that book are contested by other in-universe characters.

Also, keep in mind that classes in ESO aren't definitive. They're a template with which you can play around. Templars technically draw their power from Aedras, but nobody's stopping you from creating an Orc Templar that worships and draws power from Trinimac or Meridia's light.

An Orc Warden makes sense, even one that worships Malacath. Wardens are more than willing to shed blood in the name of nature's wrath or revenge, and guess what, Malacath is THE god of vengeance, the shunned, the oppressed and ostracized.

Even one that worships BOTH Trinimac And Malacath as two sides of the same coin makes sense as Wardens generally put some enphasis on balance in all things aswell.

SianTamzin

Although most orcs do worship Malacath (I'd even go as far to say 80% - 90% of them) they don't have to. In ESO if you play Wrothgar:

The whole questline is around orcs worshipping Trinimac fighting with orcs who worship Malacath.

Ontop of that there have been orcs in other Elder Scrolls games who worship other Aedra and Daedra.