Over Penetration bug?

madman65

No armor, no points into Concentration passive and no points into Master Assassin because my toon is a nightblade but I am still over penetrating on the trial dummy. The trial dummy i`m using is the Target Iron Atronoch, Trial. I do have the CP Piercing full and that`s at 700 Penetration and that`s it.

Necrotech_Master

its probably all of the debuffs applied to the dummy (at least i think all of these are applied)

(rounded some of the numbers for easier math)
major breach (~6000)
minor breach (~3000)
max value from alkosh (6000)
crimson oath (~3500)

just that alone puts you at around 18500 -armor on the target so you effectively dont need any penetration at all

madman65

Thanks, i`ll get with my guildmaster and see if those are being applied.

davidtk

You parsing on the Trial 21M dummy, you will get this numbers cuz buffs and debuffs from that dummy.
This numbers are absolutely right.
If you want try 6M or 3M and you will see that you will definitely not overpenetrating

virtus753

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

its probably all of the debuffs applied to the dummy (at least i think all of these are applied)

(rounded some of the numbers for easier math)
major breach (~6000)
minor breach (~3000)
max value from alkosh (6000)
crimson oath (~3500)

just that alone puts you at around 18500 -armor on the target so you effectively dont need any penetration at all

The trial dummy does not have COR.

It has Major (5948) and Minor (2974) Breach plus the max value of Alkosh (6000) and a 2-handed infused crusher enchant (2108).

That’s 17030, not past the cap of 18,200.

Outside of Piercing (700) and light armor Concentration (939 per piece at 2/2), there are pen bonuses from Twin Blade and Blunt (1650 per mace), Heavy Weapons (3300 for a maul), the sharpened trait (1638 for a gold one-hander, 3276 for a two-hander), and certain set bonuses (e.g. Plaguebreak’s 2nd piece or a Maelstrom destro’s perfected piece). Bosmer also has a racial passive for penetration (950).

virtus753

madman65 wrote: »

No armor, no points into Concentration passive and no points into Master Assassin because my toon is a nightblade but I am still over penetrating on the trial dummy. The trial dummy i`m using is the Target Iron Atronoch, Trial. I do have the CP Piercing full and that`s at 700 Penetration and that`s it.

What gear are you using? Please upload the info sheet so we can see info for your armor and inferno staff. If it’s a perfected Maelstrom (paired with your DSA staff), there’s most of your extra pen (1190).

But your max pen is exactly 2974 above Piercing plus the dummy bonuses, while your effective pen is lower than cap, suggesting you have an intermittent or temporary bonus of 2974 from somewhere. It cannot be Minor Breach, since that’s already on the dummy permanently.

What is the health potion poison you’re running?

Necrotech_Master

virtus753 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

its probably all of the debuffs applied to the dummy (at least i think all of these are applied)

(rounded some of the numbers for easier math)
major breach (~6000)
minor breach (~3000)
max value from alkosh (6000)
crimson oath (~3500)

just that alone puts you at around 18500 -armor on the target so you effectively dont need any penetration at all

The trial dummy does not have COR.

It has Major (5948) and Minor (2974) Breach plus the max value of Alkosh (6000) and a 2-handed infused crusher enchant (2108).

That’s 17030, not past the cap of 18,200.

Outside of Piercing (700) and light armor Concentration (939 per piece at 2/2), there are pen bonuses from Twin Blade and Blunt (1650 per mace), Heavy Weapons (3300 for a maul), the sharpened trait (1638 for a gold one-hander, 3276 for a two-hander), and certain set bonuses (e.g. Plaguebreak’s 2nd piece or a Maelstrom destro’s perfected piece). Bosmer also has a racial passive for penetration (950).

good to know, i dont really use the trial dummy much, and didnt remember all of the stuff applied to it, i knew for sure it had major/minor breach and alkosh (because the alkosh debuff was updated in u35 from old max of 3k to new max of 6k)

i usually just round up major and minor breach cause its easier for calculations and easier to remember (and major/minor breach combined would only make the number 122 pen higher with the rounded numbers)

in our trial groups we do usually have someone (off tank) running crimson oath for the debuff

virtus753

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

its probably all of the debuffs applied to the dummy (at least i think all of these are applied)

(rounded some of the numbers for easier math)
major breach (~6000)
minor breach (~3000)
max value from alkosh (6000)
crimson oath (~3500)

just that alone puts you at around 18500 -armor on the target so you effectively dont need any penetration at all

The trial dummy does not have COR.

It has Major (5948) and Minor (2974) Breach plus the max value of Alkosh (6000) and a 2-handed infused crusher enchant (2108).

That’s 17030, not past the cap of 18,200.

Outside of Piercing (700) and light armor Concentration (939 per piece at 2/2), there are pen bonuses from Twin Blade and Blunt (1650 per mace), Heavy Weapons (3300 for a maul), the sharpened trait (1638 for a gold one-hander, 3276 for a two-hander), and certain set bonuses (e.g. Plaguebreak’s 2nd piece or a Maelstrom destro’s perfected piece). Bosmer also has a racial passive for penetration (950).

good to know, i dont really use the trial dummy much, and didnt remember all of the stuff applied to it, i knew for sure it had major/minor breach and alkosh (because the alkosh debuff was updated in u35 from old max of 3k to new max of 6k)

i usually just round up major and minor breach cause its easier for calculations and easier to remember (and major/minor breach combined would only make the number 122 pen higher with the rounded numbers)

in our trial groups we do usually have someone (off tank) running crimson oath for the debuff

Yeah, COR can be very helpful in actual content!

I agree it can be very hard to keep track of all the dummy (de)buffs, especially since they tend to sit on updates for years (potentially plural) before bringing the dummy values in line with actual content. Until this year they were still using an obsolete and unobtainable value for crusher (2740).

WrathOfInnos

virtus753 wrote: »

madman65 wrote: »

No armor, no points into Concentration passive and no points into Master Assassin because my toon is a nightblade but I am still over penetrating on the trial dummy. The trial dummy i`m using is the Target Iron Atronoch, Trial. I do have the CP Piercing full and that`s at 700 Penetration and that`s it.

What gear are you using? Please upload the info sheet so we can see info for your armor and inferno staff. If it’s a perfected Maelstrom (paired with your DSA staff), there’s most of your extra pen (1190).

But your max pen is exactly 2974 above Piercing plus the dummy bonuses, while your effective pen is lower than cap, suggesting you have an intermittent or temporary bonus of 2974 from somewhere. It cannot be Minor Breach, since that’s already on the dummy permanently.

What is the health potion poison you’re running?

Strange, my guess was going to be the Master Assassin passive. If you put points into that does penetration on the dummy increase by another 2974?

It looks like the uptime on the mystery 2974 is low, around 15%. Breach poisons are only 1320, so I don't think they are the cause. Maybe a bug with the Sundered status effect? It could be stacking with the dummy Minor Breach either in game or just in CMX.

virtus753

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

madman65 wrote: »

No armor, no points into Concentration passive and no points into Master Assassin because my toon is a nightblade but I am still over penetrating on the trial dummy. The trial dummy i`m using is the Target Iron Atronoch, Trial. I do have the CP Piercing full and that`s at 700 Penetration and that`s it.

What gear are you using? Please upload the info sheet so we can see info for your armor and inferno staff. If it’s a perfected Maelstrom (paired with your DSA staff), there’s most of your extra pen (1190).

But your max pen is exactly 2974 above Piercing plus the dummy bonuses, while your effective pen is lower than cap, suggesting you have an intermittent or temporary bonus of 2974 from somewhere. It cannot be Minor Breach, since that’s already on the dummy permanently.

What is the health potion poison you’re running?

Strange, my guess was going to be the Master Assassin passive. If you put points into that does penetration on the dummy increase by another 2974?

It looks like the uptime on the mystery 2974 is low, around 15%. Breach poisons are only 1320, so I don't think they are the cause. Maybe a bug with the Sundered status effect? It could be stacking with the dummy Minor Breach either in game or just in CMX.

Yes, Master Assassin should register as a unique 2974 on the dummy on top of everything else. But unless someone is pausing in the middle of the fight to add it, or is rotating around the dummy mid-fight so it doesn't register, it shouldn't have an uptime under 100%.

I wasn't very familiar with fracture on potions or potions aside from that 1320 figure, but it makes sense that if it can only do 1320 then it isn't a culprit. I'm still confused by the "Health Poison Potion" notation in CMX, though, and curious what that is.

I did also think it might be a bug with a double stack of Minor Breach, but without seeing the info page and verifying that Master Assassin is not, in fact, taken, it's hard to tell for sure. I can say I've never personally seen Minor Breach register twice when I'm running lots of physical damage skills and Power of the Light to boot, but I suppose it's possible. I do know, though, that there is a bug with registering Master Assassin's pen on the character sheet, from which CMX pulls.

madman65

Yeah, I have tried 4 different target dummies and they all have over penetration on them. I have to remove all my armor, remove points into Light Armor passive and the Master Assassin passive and remove 10 points in piercing so I can still use the CP`s that are further on the tree. Still over penetrating by 92.7%, my magicka resource is terrible due to the lack of armor so I don`t know.

madman65

Oh my, I just tried a small parse on the Precursor and look at the penetration. This is my tank Dragonknight.

haelgaan

yeah, trial dummies are so buffed at present you need to bring very little pen. it's part of why magicka users are showing up in medium armor for a parse - they don't need light armor for the pen anymore... (note you need to bring more pen for many trials groups, unless they're careful to load up like the parse dummy)

virtus753

In the process of testing pen on various dummies, I'm also seeing a different value for spell pen vs. weapon pen, which should not be possible. It occurs both on dummies and in actual content (saw it in a trial tonight too).

Just hitting a 3m dummy with static pen, CMX shows me a max of 12525 pen for both spell and weapon pen. But it says that my effective spell pen is 12525, while my effective weapon pen is shown as 11674. That was with Power of the Light.

But just using Flurry to proc Sundered, I'm also seeing a variance: max 12525 for both, but 11687 effective spell pen and 11827 effective weapon pen.

Something is up with the way pen is being reported.

Necrotech_Master

virtus753 wrote: »

In the process of testing pen on various dummies, I'm also seeing a different value for spell pen vs. weapon pen, which should not be possible. It occurs both on dummies and in actual content (saw it in a trial tonight too).

Just hitting a 3m dummy with static pen, CMX shows me a max of 12525 pen for both spell and weapon pen. But it says that my effective spell pen is 12525, while my effective weapon pen is shown as 11674. That was with Power of the Light.

But just using Flurry to proc Sundered, I'm also seeing a variance: max 12525 for both, but 11687 effective spell pen and 11827 effective weapon pen.

Something is up with the way pen is being reported.

i saw it suggested before a potential way to test how much armor something has is to use the 2h ult and see how much armor it grants you (since it ignores all armor and grants you buff depending on how much was ignored

it might help if testing something with combat metrics

virtus753

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

In the process of testing pen on various dummies, I'm also seeing a different value for spell pen vs. weapon pen, which should not be possible. It occurs both on dummies and in actual content (saw it in a trial tonight too).

Just hitting a 3m dummy with static pen, CMX shows me a max of 12525 pen for both spell and weapon pen. But it says that my effective spell pen is 12525, while my effective weapon pen is shown as 11674. That was with Power of the Light.

But just using Flurry to proc Sundered, I'm also seeing a variance: max 12525 for both, but 11687 effective spell pen and 11827 effective weapon pen.

Something is up with the way pen is being reported.

i saw it suggested before a potential way to test how much armor something has is to use the 2h ult and see how much armor it grants you (since it ignores all armor and grants you buff depending on how much was ignored

it might help if testing something with combat metrics

Yes, it’s a reliable way to test, and I’ve done that for dummies and bosses. The precursor is the only dummy that has 9,100 resists. The rest have 18,200. Bosses have 18,200 resists in both normal and veteran difficulties, as tested with the 2H ult. That was all standardized and hybridized long ago.

No mobs or dummies in this game have different spell vs physical resistances anymore. No source grants only spell vs. physical pen or only spell vs. physical resistance debuffs anymore. So how can CMX register a different effective value for those two when they’re completely hybridized? Especially when I got more effective physical pen than spell on Yandir but more spell pen than physical on Vrol.

My partner also tested dummies independently on sorc and got similar inconsistencies, so it’s not specific to templar or Power of the Light. It could be related to Sunder’s Minor Breach, as we were both proccing that with physical damage.

Either something is wrong with a resistance debuff in the game or something is registering incorrectly in CMX.