CAN WE FINALY GET CLASS SPECIFIC WEAPON SKILLS?

Ashgard23

I would like to propose class specific skills and morphs for each weapon.Passives may stay the same with maybe some aditional class specific flavor.To me it seems logical that each class would use each weapon in a specific way.Maybe even add class prefered weapon bonus...
Class identity was promised long ago and this to me seems like a best solution to curent state of class identity...
I wonder what you think about this and hope some of the devs might like the idea...
Fingers crossed

Jazraena

So you want to add even more magic to what few nonmagic skills we have?

Amottica

Weapon skills are specific to weapons for the same reason class skills are specific to classes. So while I agree, and most agree, that class flavor is essential, that does not mean we should ditch the logical organization of the game. It should be done by making more class skills worthy of being used.

Ashgard23

Jazraena wrote: »

So you want to add even more magic to what few nonmagic skills we have?

No...
I have no idea how you got to that conclusion.I said that I would like them to add five class specific skills with 2 morphs for each of the weapons we curently have in game.Havent mentioned magic or nonmagic skills at all...

Ashgard23

Amottica wrote: »

Weapon skills are specific to weapons for the same reason class skills are specific to classes. So while I agree, and most agree, that class flavor is essential, that does not mean we should ditch the logical organization of the game. It should be done by making more class skills worthy of being used.

Weapon skills are not specific to weapons,because wepons dont produce any skills...
Weapons are wielded into actions we call skills,so these actions we call skills are product of wielders skill set.
Weapon skills are reflection of wielders skill set depending on weapon used.
Example:NB and Templar would produce a difrent set of actions(skills) wielding sword based on their difrent skill set and style.
Because of this class skills are specific to classes...
Organization of the game in this segment is not logical,tho it is convinient(far simpler to balance).

WoppaBoem

Ashgard23 wrote: »

I would like to propose class specific skills and morphs for each weapon.Passives may stay the same with maybe some aditional class specific flavor.To me it seems logical that each class would use each weapon in a specific way.Maybe even add class prefered weapon bonus...
Class identity was promised long ago and this to me seems like a best solution to curent state of class identity...
I wonder what you think about this and hope some of the devs might like the idea...
Fingers crossed

I think it would be great doing this. Every class has a preferred weapon or 2 and different variations of the skill in the weapon skill line. It does not even have to be so much different but it can bring nice flavor and differences in the game.

Didgerion

Ashgard23 wrote: »

I would like to propose class specific skills and morphs for each weapon.Passives may stay the same with maybe some aditional class specific flavor.To me it seems logical that each class would use each weapon in a specific way.Maybe even add class prefered weapon bonus...
Class identity was promised long ago and this to me seems like a best solution to curent state of class identity...
I wonder what you think about this and hope some of the devs might like the idea...
Fingers crossed

There shouldn't be hardcoded classes at all imo!
There should be skill lines with strong synergies and building up into those synergies would make your class.
For example a player that likes the dragon knight playstyle would choose the skill lines that synergizes well with fire damage and crowd control.

Classes simply don't go well with "Play as you want" concept. Also they are really hard to balance. They nerf one skill (like jabz) and all the class is becoming obsolete because the class doesn't have a good spamable anymore for example. You over buff one skill (like Crystal Weapon) and everyone starts complaining that their classes cannot keep up with it.

Kahnak

Ashgard23 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Weapon skills are specific to weapons for the same reason class skills are specific to classes. So while I agree, and most agree, that class flavor is essential, that does not mean we should ditch the logical organization of the game. It should be done by making more class skills worthy of being used.

Weapon skills are not specific to weapons,because wepons dont produce any skills...
Weapons are wielded into actions we call skills,so these actions we call skills are product of wielders skill set.
Weapon skills are reflection of wielders skill set depending on weapon used.
Example:NB and Templar would produce a difrent set of actions(skills) wielding sword based on their difrent skill set and style.
Because of this class skills are specific to classes...
Organization of the game in this segment is not logical,tho it is convinient(far simpler to balance).

"Weapon skills are not specific to weapons,because wepons dont produce any skills...
Weapons are wielded into actions we call skills,so these actions we call skills are product of wielders skill set.
Weapon skills are reflection of wielders skill set depending on weapon used."

Wrong. Of course they are specific to weapons - the ESO combat system is not meant to mirror real life or your personal vision for the game.

"Organization of the game in this segment is not logical,tho it is convinient(far simpler to balance)."

With all of the expert developers on the forums, you'd think that all of ESO's problems would have been solved already.

fizzylu

Ashgard23 wrote: »

I would like to propose class specific skills and morphs for each weapon.Passives may stay the same with maybe some aditional class specific flavor.To me it seems logical that each class would use each weapon in a specific way.Maybe even add class prefered weapon bonus...
Class identity was promised long ago and this to me seems like a best solution to curent state of class identity...
I wonder what you think about this and hope some of the devs might like the idea...
Fingers crossed

Sounds like you should check out GW2 haha not sure if you know anything about it or not and might not be exactly as you described, but that game ties weapon skills to the classes. It does lockout some weapon choices, but really that doesn't matter because GW2 already has more weapon options than ESO. They also have what's called elite specializations for classes; these allow a class to use a weapon type they normally wouldn't be able to. For example, I play an Elementalist with the Weaver elite specialization and it gives access to swords. I also have a Guardian with the Dragonhunter elite specialization and it let's me use longbows.
I think the way GW2 does their weapons skills is a hundred times better haha and ESO could benefit a lot from reworking their weapons (especially staffs). People who want to say they can't or shouldn't do this.... well, WoW completely reworked their classes a few expansions ago. Albion Online updated and revamped their staff weapon lines not too long ago. Both of these games saw nothing except positives from looking at their game and admitting some stuff could be better. Sadly.... this is another thing I can't see ZOS ever doing. I mean, it's Zenimax haha

Ashgard23

"Wrong. Of course they are specific to weapons - the ESO combat system is not meant to mirror real life or your personal vision for the game.

The fact that they are not mirroring real life and/or basic logic proves I am not "wrong".I am not saying that my idea is a right thing to do,but it is logical and realistic aproach to weapon skills.


With all of the expert developers on the forums, you'd think that all of ESO's problems would have been solved already.

We will never know because lately Devs seem unwilling to listen to community...
Again we can only hope that expert forumers like your self will help with that endeavor.

Ashgard23

fizzylu wrote: »

Ashgard23 wrote: »

I would like to propose class specific skills and morphs for each weapon.Passives may stay the same with maybe some aditional class specific flavor.To me it seems logical that each class would use each weapon in a specific way.Maybe even add class prefered weapon bonus...
Class identity was promised long ago and this to me seems like a best solution to curent state of class identity...
I wonder what you think about this and hope some of the devs might like the idea...
Fingers crossed

Sounds like you should check out GW2 haha not sure if you know anything about it or not and might not be exactly as you described, but that game ties weapon skills to the classes. It does lockout some weapon choices, but really that doesn't matter because GW2 already has more weapon options than ESO. They also have what's called elite specializations for classes; these allow a class to use a weapon type they normally wouldn't be able to. For example, I play an Elementalist with the Weaver elite specialization and it gives access to swords. I also have a Guardian with the Dragonhunter elite specialization and it let's me use longbows.
I think the way GW2 does their weapons skills is a hundred times better haha and ESO could benefit a lot from reworking their weapons (especially staffs). People who want to say they can't or shouldn't do this.... well, WoW completely reworked their classes a few expansions ago. Albion Online updated and revamped their staff weapon lines not too long ago. Both of these games saw nothing except positives from looking at their game and admitting some stuff could be better. Sadly.... this is another thing I can't see ZOS ever doing. I mean, it's Zenimax haha

Sounds great

Sparxlost

Ashgard23 wrote: »

I would like to propose class specific skills and morphs for each weapon.Passives may stay the same with maybe some aditional class specific flavor.To me it seems logical that each class would use each weapon in a specific way.Maybe even add class prefered weapon bonus...
Class identity was promised long ago and this to me seems like a best solution to curent state of class identity...
I wonder what you think about this and hope some of the devs might like the idea...
Fingers crossed

this forum post of mine might be along the lines of what you are thinking..

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/602333/ability-merging-ideas#latest

uses an ability crafting system that gives classes the option to make unique skills

Klingenlied

I like the overall idea - very much so actually.

Unfitting animations and animation blending is a general issue for the game - not only improving on this issue but making animations & effects specific to classes would be awesome.

Just something more "concrete" to maybe get a few players behind those ideas:

Necromancers making a wide axe sweep, cleaving enemies in two - thus creating two corpses on kill.

Templars causing explosions of light when smashing enemies with blunt weapons - healing themselves and allies and damaging enemies by doing so.

Wardens gaining the ability to tank using frost infused two handed weapons.

There is a lot one could do. A lot of fun stuff. Possibly some stuff that can break the game. Honestly though: going through those ideas, it would primeraly break the game in a good way.

Kng_Ayumayuma

Variety is the spice of life. But not always in games. Weapons should be "different" based on the class using the weapon. At least different animations or something. IMO it's unreasonable to assume a Necro is going to use a weapon exactly the way as a NB, for instance. An Orc is going to use a sword the same way as an Elf.

OP it doesn't matter what your post is about. The first responders (usually) are the ones telling you how wrong your are.

cmetzger93

No thank you

Ashgard23

Kng_Ayumayuma wrote: »

Variety is the spice of life. But not always in games. Weapons should be "different" based on the class using the weapon. At least different animations or something. IMO it's unreasonable to assume a Necro is going to use a weapon exactly the way as a NB, for instance. An Orc is going to use a sword the same way as an Elf.

OP it doesn't matter what your post is about. The first responders (usually) are the ones telling you how wrong your are.

I agree it would be very cool,but honestly I would be happy with any change in direction of more class identity

Ashgard23

Klingenlied wrote: »

I like the overall idea - very much so actually.

Unfitting animations and animation blending is a general issue for the game - not only improving on this issue but making animations & effects specific to classes would be awesome.

Just something more "concrete" to maybe get a few players behind those ideas:

Necromancers making a wide axe sweep, cleaving enemies in two - thus creating two corpses on kill.

Templars causing explosions of light when smashing enemies with blunt weapons - healing themselves and allies and damaging enemies by doing so.

Wardens gaining the ability to tank using frost infused two handed weapons.

There is a lot one could do. A lot of fun stuff. Possibly some stuff that can break the game. Honestly though: going through those ideas, it would primeraly break the game in a good way.

Yes it would be a big change but more in line with sucess of one Tamriel.
ESO definitely needs more class identity.either via skills and/or animations.I would be happy if they add both

Amottica

Ashgard23 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Weapon skills are specific to weapons for the same reason class skills are specific to classes. So while I agree, and most agree, that class flavor is essential, that does not mean we should ditch the logical organization of the game. It should be done by making more class skills worthy of being used.

Weapon skills are not specific to weapons,because wepons dont produce any skills...

Weapons are wielded into actions we call skills,so these actions we call skills are product of wielders skill set.
Weapon skills are reflection of wielders skill set depending on weapon used.
Example:NB and Templar would produce a difrent set of actions(skills) wielding sword based on their difrent skill set and style.
Because of this class skills are specific to classes...
Organization of the game in this segment is not logical,tho it is convinient(far simpler to balance).

Each weapon has a set of 5 skills and an ultimate. Those skills and the ultimate are so weapon specific that they will work without the respective weapon on the active bar when the skill is activated.

Also, the weapon skills are the same skill regardless of the wielder. They behave the same no matter who is using the skill as long as they wield the correct weapon when the skill is activated.

That means they are very much weapon specific. That is a solid fact.

I_killed_Vivec

Why should a StamSorc's use of a great sword be any different from an NB or a DK? If you're up close and personal swinging a blade then isn't that all that counts? Yes, the StamSorc might be in lightning form, the DK might be in flames - those are the class distinctions - but they are all hitting someone with a blade.

So how do they "use each weapon in a specific way"? Please, let's have some specific examples.

If you're good enough (level 50) then you can use the weapon in the best ways.

Kng_Ayumayuma

Amottica wrote: »

Also, the weapon skills are the same skill regardless of the wielder. They behave the same no matter who is using the skill as long as they wield the correct weapon when the skill is activated.

That means they are very much weapon specific. That is a solid fact.

Its a solid fact only because thats the way it was designed.
Designs can be changed. But that requires effort. It's much easier to make it all the same.

Amottica

Kng_Ayumayuma wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Also, the weapon skills are the same skill regardless of the wielder. They behave the same no matter who is using the skill as long as they wield the correct weapon when the skill is activated.

That means they are very much weapon specific. That is a solid fact.

Its a solid fact only because thats the way it was designed.
Designs can be changed. But that requires effort. It's much easier to make it all the same.

Thanks for the confirmation. I found it odd someone stated weapons skills specific to weapons.

To the point of the suggested change, sure, anything can be changed, and we have seen Zenimax change many things. However, balancing combat is an area Zenimax wrestles with. The changes that come from the struggle to balance combat does more to upset players than anything else. This suggestion goes a long way to an even more complicated balancing act for managing combat. The small benefit it may bring to the game is not worth the headache that comes with it.

Kng_Ayumayuma

Amottica wrote: »

Kng_Ayumayuma wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Also, the weapon skills are the same skill regardless of the wielder. They behave the same no matter who is using the skill as long as they wield the correct weapon when the skill is activated.

That means they are very much weapon specific. That is a solid fact.

Its a solid fact only because thats the way it was designed.
Designs can be changed. But that requires effort. It's much easier to make it all the same.

Thanks for the confirmation. I found it odd someone stated weapons skills specific to weapons.

To the point of the suggested change, sure, anything can be changed, and we have seen Zenimax change many things. However, balancing combat is an area Zenimax wrestles with. The changes that come from the struggle to balance combat does more to upset players than anything else. This suggestion goes a long way to an even more complicated balancing act for managing combat. The small benefit it may bring to the game is not worth the headache that comes with it.

This ^

For PVE I never understood all the "balance" issues anyway. Balanced to what? Personally I don't care if one class is stronger than another.

Amottica

Kng_Ayumayuma wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Kng_Ayumayuma wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Also, the weapon skills are the same skill regardless of the wielder. They behave the same no matter who is using the skill as long as they wield the correct weapon when the skill is activated.

That means they are very much weapon specific. That is a solid fact.

Its a solid fact only because thats the way it was designed.
Designs can be changed. But that requires effort. It's much easier to make it all the same.

Thanks for the confirmation. I found it odd someone stated weapons skills specific to weapons.

To the point of the suggested change, sure, anything can be changed, and we have seen Zenimax change many things. However, balancing combat is an area Zenimax wrestles with. The changes that come from the struggle to balance combat does more to upset players than anything else. This suggestion goes a long way to an even more complicated balancing act for managing combat. The small benefit it may bring to the game is not worth the headache that comes with it.

This ^

For PVE I never understood all the "balance" issues anyway. Balanced to what? Personally I don't care if one class is stronger than another.

But players do. Balance is for PvP and PvE. In PvE, some players are disenfranchised from top groups because their DPS on the character they play is sub-par for the goals of that group. The group is not at fault, and I am not speaking to bad players either.

Granted, most players have multiple characters across several, if not all classes, so they can swap. That is not the case with everything. Even then, some skills overperform, which becomes more of an issue with PvP, and Zenimax has made it clear they will not balance PvE separately from PvP outside of Battle Spirit.

Yes, the balancing is annoying. The degree of that annoyance is due mainly to the complexity of what is available for combat builds. Let us not try to make that worse.

Kng_Ayumayuma

Amottica wrote: »

Kng_Ayumayuma wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Kng_Ayumayuma wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Also, the weapon skills are the same skill regardless of the wielder. They behave the same no matter who is using the skill as long as they wield the correct weapon when the skill is activated.

That means they are very much weapon specific. That is a solid fact.

Its a solid fact only because thats the way it was designed.
Designs can be changed. But that requires effort. It's much easier to make it all the same.

Thanks for the confirmation. I found it odd someone stated weapons skills specific to weapons.

To the point of the suggested change, sure, anything can be changed, and we have seen Zenimax change many things. However, balancing combat is an area Zenimax wrestles with. The changes that come from the struggle to balance combat does more to upset players than anything else. This suggestion goes a long way to an even more complicated balancing act for managing combat. The small benefit it may bring to the game is not worth the headache that comes with it.

This ^

For PVE I never understood all the "balance" issues anyway. Balanced to what? Personally I don't care if one class is stronger than another.

But players do. Balance is for PvP and PvE. In PvE, some players are disenfranchised from top groups because their DPS on the character they play is sub-par for the goals of that group. The group is not at fault, and I am not speaking to bad players either.

Granted, most players have multiple characters across several, if not all classes, so they can swap. That is not the case with everything. Even then, some skills overperform, which becomes more of an issue with PvP, and Zenimax has made it clear they will not balance PvE separately from PvP outside of Battle Spirit.

Yes, the balancing is annoying. The degree of that annoyance is due mainly to the complexity of what is available for combat builds. Let us not try to make that worse.

You are right... again.

In my mind, at least, I feel PVE gear should be separated more from PVP gear than it is. ATM it really is all the same. And that means a massive undertaking to change it.

There is a lot of good ideas in the forums here... for ESO 2.

Ashgard23

Amottica wrote: »

Ashgard23 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Weapon skills are specific to weapons for the same reason class skills are specific to classes. So while I agree, and most agree, that class flavor is essential, that does not mean we should ditch the logical organization of the game. It should be done by making more class skills worthy of being used.

Weapon skills are not specific to weapons,because wepons dont produce any skills...

Weapons are wielded into actions we call skills,so these actions we call skills are product of wielders skill set.
Weapon skills are reflection of wielders skill set depending on weapon used.
Example:NB and Templar would produce a difrent set of actions(skills) wielding sword based on their difrent skill set and style.
Because of this class skills are specific to classes...
Organization of the game in this segment is not logical,tho it is convinient(far simpler to balance).

Each weapon has a set of 5 skills and an ultimate. Those skills and the ultimate are so weapon specific that they will work without the respective weapon on the active bar when the skill is activated.

Also, the weapon skills are the same skill regardless of the wielder. They behave the same no matter who is using the skill as long as they wield the correct weapon when the skill is activated.

That means they are very much weapon specific. That is a solid fact.

Your second sentance in a first line makes no sense and its imposible in game,so I will just ignore it...

Again as I stated game design regarding this segemnt is illogical and unrealistic in both fantasy and real life way.
I sugest reading on Elder scrolls lore and history of combat for clarification.

All facts are solid by definition,but what you are talking about is not solid nor is a fact.

Ashgard23

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Why should a StamSorc's use of a great sword be any different from an NB or a DK? If you're up close and personal swinging a blade then isn't that all that counts? Yes, the StamSorc might be in lightning form, the DK might be in flames - those are the class distinctions - but they are all hitting someone with a blade.

So how do they "use each weapon in a specific way"? Please, let's have some specific examples.

If you're good enough (level 50) then you can use the weapon in the best ways.

OK let me explain:
In combat history you have examples of difrent style trainings,as you have in fantasy noveles.
Lets take swords as they are most prevalent.You have Italian,Spanish,English,French,German style of sword fighting as some of the most known.They are all difrent in terms of shapeing skill with a weapon through training.
You can find same logic in Fantasy like:Warhammer,Star wars,Guild wars,Neverwinter and so on...
Combat in the Elder Scrolls lore followes same logic.
So if we were swordfighting we would both use a sword in a difrent way.Produce difrent moves and actions,hopefully I would win lol...
Classes/professions recive specific training with specific weapon,this is whay each class would use the weapon in a specific way:Samurai,Swordmasters of Hoeth,Hoplites,Battlemages and so on...
Templars that recive same training would fight very similar to each other with a same weapon,but a NB would use difrent tehnique/skills with same weapon due to training which focuses on difrent goals.

But look at the benifits of complete class identity.Warden could have difrent Companion for each weapon,we would have enough frost dmg skills for a real frost mage,no matter the weapon.
Basicly devs decide what specifics make each class and add bunch of skills complementing these specifics...

Each class would get 25 new skills,50new morphs,5 new ults and 10 ult morphs.Imo that would really refresh the combat in ESO add bunch of options and longevity.

fizzylu

Amottica wrote: »

This suggestion goes a long way to an even more complicated balancing act for managing combat. The small benefit it may bring to the game is not worth the headache that comes with it.

If the logic is "changing an already not very good system will just make things worse" then I think the game has bigger problems than people being unsatisfied by their class identity and skill lines hahahahaaaa
Like seriously, if we can't trust the devs to make changes to the game.... then why are we playing it? When WoW revamped all of their classes, the majority was happy. When WoW reworked their talent system for every class AND all their specializations a couple weeks ago or so, the majority was happy. When Albion Online updated their staffs, the majority was happy.... but with ESO it's "if they attempted a change like this, it'd be too complicated for ZOS and a headache". That's very telling.

Aggrovious

The logic is begging for diversity. Thats what this post is ultimately about. Specifics will be edited and dumbed down if ZOS ever implements such.