Stamina warden still underpowered

warich

Stamina wardens who can't sustain using the master's destruction staff are still far from the pack in terms of damage output. The sole focus on ice magic and getting rid of the pen passive hurts stamina wardens even more. Not to mention it also puts all of a warden's eggs into one basket, completely neglecting the 2 other skill lines that focus on nature.

Please balance this somehow.

Whether it's leaning into bleed more for the stamina wardens and ice for the magicka, or removing the weapon specific passive and just give wardens the boost they need, I don't care.

This update has felt more like a slap in the face than u35 did for wardens. The class's damage was completely gutted, and now only half of the equation (magicka wardens) are seeing improvements.

If it's truly intended for this game to be "play how you want", then stamina wardens need to get some sort of buff and the weapon specific passive (which forces the class into using an ice staff) needs to be removed.

boi_anachronism_

I forget who it was but someone suggested that piercing cold could proc bleed damage for that additional buff that ice staffs get for a melee weapon (bow maybe? I'm just spitballing) so stam wardens could take advantage of it as well, but weird to religate an entire passive to only staff wielders of a class.

dmnqwk

I just did a quick test on the trial dummy and I was at 100k. U34 and 35 I was at... 100k (fairly cosistently 99k to 101k) I don't think there's much of a change except for seeing 155% crit dmg max hahaha.

The point being that I don't think Stamden damage went massively downhill with the changes and I haven't altered gear from last patch - still rele/nirn/kilt/kjalnir.

I'd like to know why a 10% bonus for Ice staff is worth using over dual wield - Considering your spammable must become silver shards (which is worse than rapid strikes) and you have no execute/aoe anymore. I think it's overreacting to worry about stamden being weakened from previous patch.

cuddles_with_wroble

I think what you don’t understand is that this game isn’t about “play how you want” it’s “play how ZOS wants you to” and what ZOS wants is a blanket slate that’s easier to balance.

So they removed class identity and build diversity in an effort to make everyone run the same thing so they don’t have as much to balance.

Welcome to eso man, your class will get destroyed and have it’s core identity changed ever other update. You get used it. [snip]

[edited for minor bashing]

cuddles_with_wroble

dmnqwk wrote: »

I just did a quick test on the trial dummy and I was at 100k. U34 and 35 I was at... 100k (fairly cosistently 99k to 101k) I don't think there's much of a change except for seeing 155% crit dmg max hahaha.

The point being that I don't think Stamden damage went massively downhill with the changes and I haven't altered gear from last patch - still rele/nirn/kilt/kjalnir.

I'd like to know why a 10% bonus for Ice staff is worth using over dual wield - Considering your spammable must become silver shards (which is worse than rapid strikes) and you have no execute/aoe anymore. I think it's overreacting to worry about stamden being weakened from previous patch.

You might think your still at 100k but they buffed dps on the dummy by about 30 ish % so your actually parsing around 25-30% lower than you were in update 34, but like I said the dummy got changed so you can’t really tell. Sneaky huh?

warich

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I forget who it was but someone suggested that piercing cold could proc bleed damage for that additional buff that ice staffs get for a melee weapon (bow maybe? I'm just spitballing) so stam wardens could take advantage of it as well, but weird to religate an entire passive to only staff wielders of a class.

It shouldn't be linked to any weapon at all though no /class/ passive (or skill) should require a weapon. It's why there's different skill lines for weapons and classes.

warich

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

I think what you don’t understand is that this game isn’t about “play how you want” it’s “play how ZOS wants you to” and what ZOS wants is a blanket slate that’s easier to balance.

So they removed class identity and build diversity in an effort to make everyone run the same thing so they don’t have as much to balance.

Welcome to eso man, your class will get destroyed and have it’s core identity changed ever other update. You get used it. [snip]

You must be fun at parties (/j)

In all seriousness, it doesn't make sense why they hit warden and nothing else with the "use this weapon or you lose a class passive", especially since it directly contradicts what /they/ told us to get their hybridization patch in.

[edited to remove quote]

cuddles_with_wroble

The highest damage setup is still useing no arena wep right? It’s rele + pillar with kilt and monster helm no? If that’s still the case then it really doesn’t matter what your back bar is… I.e you could run bow/2h/destro and I think the dps difference between them would be very small

cuddles_with_wroble

We really have no class identity any more so the difference between stam and mag warden really comes down to what race and food your using but your skills and stats and sets will be basically the exact same.

It’s sad for the game but this is just how it is now since if you look at most skills there is 1 morph that does a clear amount more dps than other morphs reguardless of what resource you spend on it you’ll most likely be using that one.

Same goes for weapons and sets. Now that everything is the same you kinda just end up pigeon holed into whatever weapon load out does the most damage reguardless of class or spec. Everyone is running the same exact thing now so take that for what you will

dmnqwk

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

dmnqwk wrote: »

I just did a quick test on the trial dummy and I was at 100k. U34 and 35 I was at... 100k (fairly cosistently 99k to 101k) I don't think there's much of a change except for seeing 155% crit dmg max hahaha.

The point being that I don't think Stamden damage went massively downhill with the changes and I haven't altered gear from last patch - still rele/nirn/kilt/kjalnir.

I'd like to know why a 10% bonus for Ice staff is worth using over dual wield - Considering your spammable must become silver shards (which is worse than rapid strikes) and you have no execute/aoe anymore. I think it's overreacting to worry about stamden being weakened from previous patch.

You might think your still at 100k but they buffed dps on the dummy by about 30 ish % so your actually parsing around 25-30% lower than you were in update 34, but like I said the dummy got changed so you can’t really tell. Sneaky huh?

This is misleading.

I am fully aware of how everybody lost damage and the dummy gained to compensate, that's old news. I am referring to how I maintained my damage on the dummy after the loss (meaning I am aware I went down around 20% damage in real world targets).
My point was that post dummy buff and global nerf U35, I parsed 100k. Yesterday, after Firesong U36 - I still parsed 100k. Firesong didn't really affect my Stamden in a way other think it affected them. I kept the same, meaning I wasn't becoming relatively weaker unless all the other classes got a buff (which they did not, especially Templar).

I parse about 100k for 3 classes - Stamblade, Stamden and I added StamDK recently. So between the three I maintain about the same damage. In real world tests I do about 50k on bosses for those, plus 45-50k for Magplar, Stamcro and Stamsorc. It's only anecdotal, but I want to stress how empathically I do not believe Stamden is struggling simply because of Firesong changes.

Regarding the 'identity' issue - I have played an Oakensoul bleed build for fun because outside of Shalks being the wrong damage type for both sides of the coin (Magicka and Stamina) I think our bleed damage has been cemented well.
Also, emphatically, I don't believe class identity needs to exist around a damage type. Ice is a defensive type in ESO, not an offensive one. ZOS trying to pander to the 'I wanna be an ice mage' crowd is fine, until it impacts on my tanking with Ice. Then I will fight vigorously and vociferously to shut it down to protect my own interests - as anybody would.

Ice is for tanking, stop trying to ruin ice for tanks with the suggestions of 'we need a new staff'. We do not, Ice is fine as part of the destruction options!

warich

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

The highest damage setup is still useing no arena wep right? It’s rele + pillar with kilt and monster helm no? If that’s still the case then it really doesn’t matter what your back bar is… I.e you could run bow/2h/destro and I think the dps difference between them would be very small

Highest damage setup for warden uses the master's ice staff and frost reach spammable. And the dps difference when wielding a destro staff is about 10k.

Elendir2am

Magden was weakest DD in game, so ZOS showed some love to it. Stamden is far from strongest, but it isn`t weakest DD in game. Thats why they didn`t make anythink for stam den.

warich

Elendir2am wrote: »

Magden was weakest DD in game, so ZOS showed some love to it. Stamden is far from strongest, but it isn`t weakest DD in game. Thats why they didn`t make anythink for stam den.

stamden is the weakest this patch though LOL

WrathOfInnos

No class passive should mandate a weapon type. Just like no weapon passive should require a specific class.

It's fine for a class passive to affect damage of certain weapons (like Sorcerer getting 5% more lightning damage, or DK with extra fire damage). It's also fine for a weapon passive to affect class skills (like Winter's Revenge getting more chilled procs from Elemental Force). These provide build synergy without creating severe limitations.

Caribou77

Agree the Ice Staff only passive for warden is extremely restrictive and destroys build diversity.

I main a PVP Magden, and Flame Clench has been central to the effectiveness of my combos and playing style. Before you tell me to just swap Frost Clench— already tried and it doesn’t work. DKs especially walk right through Frost Clench, whereas Flame Clench gives Knockback— buying time and space to land a combo.

So now I get to choose between a critical utility skill for my playing style, or a 12% damage increase, and being limited to Ice Staff.

Also, FYI, Frost Reach is a very weak spammable in PVP because it is very easily dodged. Any spammable that is dodged over 50% of the time is not doing its job, and is not worth running.

I guess the ice staff passive was strictly to address the huge loss in dps that PVE MagWardens suffered from U35. Meanwhile PVP MagWarden remains little more than a neutered StamWarden, holding a staff, instead of spamming Dizzy and SpintoWin.