Would you sub if it fixed cyrodiil?

rbfrgsp

As title. If Cyrodiil was paywalled and only for ESO+ but performance was improved to the standard it's at during PvP events even during prime time, would that convince you to subscribe? The fact that performance and stability is better during events indicates that a large part of the issues are financial, not technical. So if you could help out the bean-counters in return for a better user experience... would you?

fred4

I have experienced little to no performance improvements during events on PC EU, so therefore the answer is no (albeit I'm currently on ESO+ anyway). Performance is inconsistent depending on which part of the map you play, what time of day, and what server. An argument can be made that the casuals flocking to PvP during an event don't have the same APM as experienced players. You have more servers and more of a mixed population, with some players possibly doing town quests and PvDoor. This is the kind of information players don't have access to and which may account for Cyrodiil feeling different during events. Like I said, though, I have not personally experienced that. As far as I'm concerned performance during events is a myth.

I am looking forward to new servers, but at this stage the population cap is so low, I believe we'll either have viable performance with too low a population or the same laggy performance with a somewhat better population. Based on my experience as a software developer, my best guess is that throwing money at the problem, e.g. hardware upgrades, may improve performace by something like 2x to 4x. I suspect that the servers may well be bottlenecked on a single thread and it's mainly the IPC improvement of modern CPUs that will bring that improvement. Then ZOS will just hit a wall again.

Depending on the quality of their existing code, software optimisations can bring about much larger performance gains. More like 20x to 40x instead of 2x to 4x. Of course I know nothing about their code. All I'm saying is that it's not uncommon to wring that kind of improvement from targeted optimisations to code that is bottlenecked in some way. This is, I believe, why ZOS themselves were careful to downplay the PC NA server upgrade.

The state of Cyrodiil on PC EU is truly awful. The pop caps are too low, yet it's laggy. Despite low pop caps, even Gray Host is no longer fully populated for the whole evening. PvP is dying. We IMO need better performance, higher population caps, and more players willing to return to Cyrodiil. I don't think a paywall will help with that last point. I think part of the attraction for streamers and other experienced players is to play outnumbered. That depends on a steady flow of noobs. At the very least PvP would change, if you put a paywall up.

Where is the breakeven point at which you could substantially raise the population cap and have no lag, even at prime time? Would hardware improvements be sufficient to banish the lag? I bet ZOS are watching PC NA very carefully and are asking themselves that very question. My fear is that, given current populations, they'll conclude "it will do". I couldn't blame them. It's hard to say where the players would be coming from at this stage. For a 7 year veteran, like me, the game has basically run it's course. Will there be an uptake of PvP among new players in what is now an old game that gained a casual PvE direction in the meantime? I don't know. ZOS have kept stumm all along, because they don't want to sabotage any demographic they currently have, the fallout from U35 for PvE notwithstanding. They're hanging on. Do they have the will and the passion to try and re-invigorate PvP? I don't think so and I think it would take much more than your proposed solution.

Lebkuchen

Last PvP event completely broke Gray Host on Playstation EU. Half of the event was unplayable after the maintenance in the middle of the event. It's still broken and empty and we didn't get any information or acknowledgement for 3 months now. Discussions and tickets have been closed and ignored by the filterteam and we don't even know if the devs know about this issue. Almost everyone switched to Blackreach or PC NA or just stopped playing. Compared to Gray Host Blackreach works pretty well most of the time. But PvP is sick and needs help.

I was ESO+ member for years, and i bought every DLC when it came out. Stupid me even bought crowns, thinking it would help the game get better. But i feel ignored and not welcome anymore. So i refuse to give them any more of my money until they fix performance.

All the talk about new server hardware and code re-architecture and whatever does not give me a lot of hope. It feels like another version of the carrot on a stick that kept me playing and waiting for years.

Yes i would resub to ESO+ and buy a big PvP DLC for 300 euros or more. Even if i am frustrated, disappointed and very angry at them. But i fear this will never happen.

Kappachi

As an ESO+ subscriber, Cyrodiil doesn't interest me at all, nor does the Imperial City, my choice to sub has nothing to do with Cyrodiil and I only go there for the skyshards and a little bit of questing.

I also continue to purchase every single DLC that the game releases so that when my sub runs out I can keep playing every piece of content, then resub when I need crowns to buy DLC again.

VaranisArano

You have fun in your paywalled Cyrodiil, forgetting that the other paid PVP content Imperial City and Battlegrounds were eventually given away for free in order to get enough players to go there.


Besides that, I find this general idea of "Would you pay for a working Cyrodiil" tiresome whenever it comes up, as if $15 a month is gonna make a difference.

If Cyrodiil's problems could be fixed by a solution as simple as "throw money at it," ZOS would've fixed it years ago.

Seriously, how many subs do you think they could've saved over the years if it worked?

No, this is a problem with the fundamental architecture of ESO combined with older hardware. And we know what ZOS is doing about it: rearchitecturing their code and waiting for their hardware orders to be fulfilled. The timeline on both of those is still pretty far out there...but it's also not the sort of thing that we players can speed up by subbing.

Amottica

I am confused about what answer to select as I am already ESO+ and do not subscribe for the benefits it provides. While I enjoy Cyrodiil, I would still subscribe if it was removed from the game, as it is a secondary aspect of ESO.

Even with people whose only focus is Cyrodiil, the poll is irrelevant since they do not need to subscribe to pay Cyrodiil. Unless their playing time in Cyrodiil was limited without ESO+, there is no reason to have a recurring subscription to play Cyrodiil. As @VaranisArano notes, Zenimax has not been able to monetize PvP. Even BGs had to be given away.

Hopefully, the work Zenimax is doing with the serverside code and replacing the hardware will show notable improvements. Even then, Zenimax should remain true to the core aspect of ESO, PvE.

SkaraMinoc

The game should work properly whether you're subscribed to ESO+ or not.

Lebkuchen

Yes, the game should work without paying extra, but some parts of the game just don't. Whatever plans they might have right now is probably irrelevant and will not fix anything, because they had countless other "plans" before, and nothing worked. So something has to change. [snip] Nobody knows because they don't really talk to us. 15$ could make a difference if the "2 million new players this year" would pay it once, and it would make a really big difference if everyone would pay it every month... Hardware costs money. Programmers cost money. So yes, please let us throw money at it. Why not? I don't care if i have to sub to ESO+, buy a DLC or send them cash with the mail. Please just find a real solution and get it done! And please stop telling us to shut up and play something else. A lot of players wanted to play big PvP battles in ESO, did countless hours of senseless farming, questing and stupid chores to get their chars ready, and never really got to enjoy the game they wanted to play. And before deleting ESO and moving on, some of us are trying to find solutions, even if it is not our job, and we have no idea what we are talking about. We just want to play the game we paid for. But we can't. The performance in Blackreach was really bad today, so they managed to break another campaign somehow. I honestly don't know how much longer i can take this.

[edited for conspiracy theory/misinformation]

Jabbs_Giggity

I sub'd for 2-3 years to ESO+ mostly for craft bag and access to DLC's, but the ended when Warden dropped and Templar was gutted to "Enhance" the Warden class abilities and make them "Flavor of the Month". I tried playing the game a little bit after, up until the Necro dropped.

Cyrodiil PVP server performance is what caused me to leave ESO. I just recently reinstalled, thinking performance would be mildly better after 2 years. Nope.

I would re-Sub and play ESO more actively IF two things happened.
1. ESO finally invested into PVP zones for both performance and actual balancing.
2. Templar got its class identity back. After both U35 and U36 nerf-hammer to Templar, the class is just an extra body for Necro corpse skills. Minimal build scaling, dismal DPS output, lack of options for even building DPS combo. All Templar has going is mediocre defense and mediocre heals - vastly supported only by CP and broken sets (Mara's + Cleanse combo).

Will never get my sub again until these things are fixed.

Jabbs_Giggity

Amottica wrote: »

I am confused about what answer to select as I am already ESO+ and do not subscribe for the benefits it provides. While I enjoy Cyrodiil, I would still subscribe if it was removed from the game, as it is a secondary aspect of ESO.

Even with people whose only focus is Cyrodiil, the poll is irrelevant since they do not need to subscribe to pay Cyrodiil. Unless their playing time in Cyrodiil was limited without ESO+, there is no reason to have a recurring subscription to play Cyrodiil. As @VaranisArano notes, Zenimax has not been able to monetize PvP. Even BGs had to be given away.

Hopefully, the work Zenimax is doing with the serverside code and replacing the hardware will show notable improvements. Even then, Zenimax should remain true to the core aspect of ESO, PvE.

The OP's point isn't whether a Sub is required for PVP in Cyrodiil. The point is that the player base who's time is spent mostly in PVP zones has been dismal for over 5 years and zero legitimate efforts have been made to improve the experience.

Cyrodiil is broken for various reasons.
1. Underlying bad code from the shift of original Devs to new Devs without proper knowledge of how the coding affected the calculations on the server while new coding to overwrite the ladder just made calculations more ambiguous.
2. Server capacity and and outdated technology is not improved over time, as the servers for Cyrodiil are different than PVE zones. (every notice how Midyear Mayhem generally works without server performance issues? It's because additional servers are leased to handle the load while there is an influx of PVEr's, then it goes back to how it was after the event)
3. Host to Client stability is irrational. 90% of tickets to ZOS regarding crashes or high latency is replied to with "Get better internet" - this is not the actual case for majority of players. Yes, there is client-side issues, but mostly not the case.

Lastly, ESO's core is not PVE as intended. PVE and PVP were both staples of ESO's creation, hence Cyrodiil being large-scale open PVP servers. The fact of the matter is, most of the ESO population being recorded now is PVE content, where 60% is casual questers, new players and PVPer's farming PVE content for new gear each patch. End game Trial groups maybe account for 15-20% of the ESO population.

For various reasons, as this game is a "grind" game like many other Elder Scrolls titles, nearly majority of content required for "Veteran" PVP is locked behind PVE content. Thus, causing PVPer's both casual and hardcore to consistently farm PVE content in order to play PVP.

Nothing wrong with this concept, but to say, "ESO is PVE at core so delete PVP and we won't care" is an outlandish and selfish claim.

xylena_lazarow

No, my priority is fixing the meta. Delete the tank meta. Bring back all the nerfed niche damage playstyles.

Bad lag makes me rage quit... but bad meta makes me perma quit.

Caribou77

Jabbs G. is very thorough and correct in his/her analysis.

Like many primarily PvP players, I am very interested to hear an update from the Dev team on their progress with the new server hardware.

BazOfWar

Already ESO+ but we shouldn't have to sub for them to make their own game performance acceptable.

I would also like to see some updates on Server hardware and the game code re-write.

Luede

wrong order, if they fix Cyrodiil, I would sign up. With the current work morale of ZOS I invest nothing more.

Jabbs_Giggity

Caribou77 wrote: »

Jabbs G. is very thorough and correct in his/her analysis.

Like many primarily PvP players, I am very interested to hear an update from the Dev team on their progress with the new server hardware.

Thank you. I started playing ESO at launch on console in 2015, as I was hyped for the anticipation coming from previous Elder Scrolls games. I played exclusively PVE content for 1.5 years before I even dabbled into PVP.

PVE content just became repetitive and stale. Once I got into PVP, it was extremely frustrating learning the curve of PVP versus PVE content, but with great guilds it became my core reason to play ESO.

Over the years I have been up-to-date with each and every patch note change to Class reworks, Nerf hammers and buffs. I have seen where the original combat team really had no vision. During all of this the Cyrodiil server performance began crumbling and the player base has been extremely vocal of the problems to a fault.

I stopped playing ESO between the Warden and Necro drops, primarily due to Cyrodiil server performance after many false promises and futile attempts to better the experience. Between reworking how skills calculate to lighten code calculations, to lowering groups from 24 to 12, to "upgraded" performance hardware to client side upgrades.

Coming back to ESO in the recent week, I have personally noticed zero positive changes to performance. I still keep in touch with old guild mates from years ago who regularly inform me that their Trials guilds have fallen apart, many veteran PVE content players have left the game and moved to titles such as "New World". However, in Cyrodiil I still see a vast amount of old names from Day 1 players in PVP.

PVE is not a core staple to ESO, it is just a Core cash grab for the game to continue on. However, many PVP-oriented players, including myself, still buy into all of the cash grabs - be it from the Crown Store and the ridiculous over pricing or content drops via Chapters and DLC. As the game evolves with PVE content, PVP players split time between content to, again, grind more gear that does exactly the same as old gear for PVP.

Golden Vendor is our only way to circumvent PVE content grinding, as PVPer's, and even that is a joke at best.

ESO+ should also give more to the PVP base. I would suggest that when 1/2 of a monster set is available in the Golden vendor, ESO+ should have access to the corresponding piece that "isn't" in the vendor. When a set item is offered in the Golden, ESO+ should be able to offer the complete set in the Golden vendor.

The Golden vendor also, should have more than just two dungeon and two monster sets available weekly. There are now 5 categories of PVP quests offered for AvA, but only 1 actually gives content other than "Rewards of the Worthy".

Most just give 4K AP and that's it.

Emmagoldman

I love pvp but pve as well so will continue to sub.....BUT...... I'm insanely bored. Pvp hasn't been worked on in ages. I would love to see smaller maps, new environments and objectives.

Won't lie, if any new mmo comes by with a great pvp system, I'm cutting ties. I'm looking at you AOC!

Jabbs_Giggity

Emmagoldman wrote: »

I love pvp but pve as well so will continue to sub.....BUT...... I'm insanely bored. Pvp hasn't been worked on in ages. I would love to see smaller maps, new environments and objectives.

Won't lie, if any new mmo comes by with a great pvp system, I'm cutting ties. I'm looking at you AOC!

Had my eyes on AOC too, until they announced it would be PC only...so much for the Console talk...SMH

malistorr

I have participated in all PVP events and PVE events of the past few years. PC and Xbox. Every event performance is worse than it is usually (which is already very very bad). Not sure which world you're living in if you think it somehow improves during events. That is absolutely NEVER the case.

The way this SHOULD work:

1. Dev makes game and fixes bugs and server performance in game and makes the game work well/properly
2. Money is spent to market the game and sell it
3. People see said marketing and buy/play the game
4. People stay because they enjoy the game (due to quality/regular content and good performance)

It does not work in reverse. ZOS can't charge people for memberships with promises that the game will 1-day work better.
But they've been trying to do that. So you wonder why so many people are leaving the game...

esogamer2021

I only sub because of the unlimited craft bag and to he honest if they didn’t include the craft bag with the sub I’d definitely stop my eso+ but that’s how ZOS get a round it , if the crag bag was free the eso+ would definitely drop massively throughout the game

Jaimeh

Yes, because I find Cyrodiil PvP one of the most fun activities in the game. Performance was a lot better after the re-architecture for a time, but has gone down again, so I'm hoping the new content cycle of 2023 being more relaxed will translate to bigger focus on performance issues, and we also has the code re-work to look forward to.