4 Simple changes to make Vampire less... well useless (as in better)

dsalter

reduce the cost increase to non-vampire skills from +3% / +5% / +8% / +12% Reduced to +2% / +4% / +6% / +8%
The reason for this is to make it less punishing on you for flowing vampire skills into non-vampire abilities.

Add a new buff to the vampire stages :
Increases the damage of non-ultimate Vampire abilities by +3% / +6% / +9% / +12%
the reason for this is the ultimate is already pretty hefty but the other abilities are pretty lacking in terms of damage

reduce the health regen reduction to -10% / -25% / -50% / -80%
the reason for this is purely to give vampire players SOME out of combat regen instead of feeling forced to use a healing spell or a potion to top up

add an additional trait to the passive FEED to give any melee light and auto attacks to heal the attacker for 5% of damage delt (maybe even 7% if it still feels to weak)
the reason for this is melee vampires already struggle due to the health cost of their spells as well as cost increases so having a built in lifesteal effect that stacks with the life stealing buff from other sources will help a vampire player not fall off so heavy during fire content, rangers were having less issues due to their more evasive nature

will these changes make vampires meta?
hell no, but it will make them less of a burden during content while being less punishing for players wanting to mix in some vampire abilities into their rotations/utility

Necrotech_Master

i think the first 3 options would probably go a long way to actually making vampire at least a choice

the 4th suggestion i think would be unnecessary in the fact that there is a CP slottable which heals you for 7% of all direct dmg that you deal in the blue tree, which is almost identical to what you are asking and kind of acts like a "pale order lite"

Soarora

dsalter wrote: »

reduce the cost increase to non-vampire skills from +3% / +5% / +8% / +12% Reduced to +2% / +4% / +6% / +8%
The reason for this is to make it less punishing on you for flowing vampire skills into non-vampire abilities.

Add a new buff to the vampire stages :
Increases the damage of non-ultimate Vampire abilities by +3% / +6% / +9% / +12%
the reason for this is the ultimate is already pretty hefty but the other abilities are pretty lacking in terms of damage

These parts really caught my attention. I don't understand why non-vampire skills have to cost so much, honestly. Plus, we're supposed to get stronger as our stage goes up but it doesn't really feel that way outside of invisible sprinting.

As for the health regeneration, I do like having 0 regeneration sometimes but hate it other times. I think maybe having a vampire-centric mythic that sets health regeneration to 0 would be a nice alternative. Why? Well, it's fun from a roleplay perspective but painful from an overlanding perspective. Also simmering frenzy is outhealed by like... everything which is such a pain.

dsalter

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i think the first 3 options would probably go a long way to actually making vampire at least a choice

the 4th suggestion i think would be unnecessary in the fact that there is a CP slottable which heals you for 7% of all direct dmg that you deal in the blue tree, which is almost identical to what you are asking and kind of acts like a "pale order lite"

i did take that into consideration but the CP version is superior in that it benefits ALL direct damage including range.

melee vampires are usually the ones who suffer most due to many PvP and PvE abilities having splash or AoE components and most of the healing from vampire is utilized purely from ultimate or range, having a passive healing "life steal" from ONLY light and heavy attacks will make melee vampire stand out slightly and synergize better with their melee range abilities.

obviously the side effect would be you could double dip the CP to get roughly 12% lifesteal on light/heavies and 7% from other attacks but honestly is that going to break much considering how bad melee vampire compared to magicka is?

Turtle_Bot

As a stand-alone skill line, it is definitely underwhelming. Unfortunately, since the undeath passive is still so strong and the skill line can be integrated into a build (unlike werewolf) I don't foresee the skill line itself getting any major buffs without significant nerfs alongside those buffs.

dsalter wrote: »

add an additional trait to the passive FEED to give any melee light and auto attacks to heal the attacker for 5% of damage delt (maybe even 7% if it still feels to weak)
the reason for this is melee vampires already struggle due to the health cost of their spells as well as cost increases so having a built in lifesteal effect that stacks with the life stealing buff from other sources will help a vampire player not fall off so heavy during fire content, rangers were having less issues due to their more evasive nature

I would like to see this added to the feed passive, and make it work with blood for blood/arterial burst as well as LA/HA, as those skill names sound like the vampire is going for the enemy's blood.

This change alone would probably offset a lot of the other issues with the skill line, since you would naturally heal for more meaning less draining on resources to heal up with non-vampire skills and more passive healing meaning the 0 health regen would be less punishing. It would also allow for some of the defensive power to be shifted away from the undeath passive allowing that passive to be nerfed to say 20% without affecting the defensive capabilities of vampires much if at all.

Norith_Gilheart_Flail

Wait, is the title supposed to be how to make Vampires more useful, or less useful?

Because suggesting improvements means more useful.

This is confusing.

dsalter

Zavijah_Arventi wrote: »

Wait, is the title supposed to be how to make Vampires more useful, or less useful?

Because suggesting improvements means more useful.

This is confusing.

good eye, my writing skills were never that good so threw in a (as in better) into the title to emphasis that its a slight improvement.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As a stand-alone skill line, it is definitely underwhelming. Unfortunately, since the undeath passive is still so strong and the skill line can be integrated into a build (unlike werewolf) I don't foresee the skill line itself getting any major buffs without significant nerfs alongside those buffs.

dsalter wrote: »

add an additional trait to the passive FEED to give any melee light and auto attacks to heal the attacker for 5% of damage delt (maybe even 7% if it still feels to weak)
the reason for this is melee vampires already struggle due to the health cost of their spells as well as cost increases so having a built in lifesteal effect that stacks with the life stealing buff from other sources will help a vampire player not fall off so heavy during fire content, rangers were having less issues due to their more evasive nature

I would like to see this added to the feed passive, and make it work with blood for blood/arterial burst as well as LA/HA, as those skill names sound like the vampire is going for the enemy's blood.

This change alone would probably offset a lot of the other issues with the skill line, since you would naturally heal for more meaning less draining on resources to heal up with non-vampire skills and more passive healing meaning the 0 health regen would be less punishing. It would also allow for some of the defensive power to be shifted away from the undeath passive allowing that passive to be nerfed to say 20% without affecting the defensive capabilities of vampires much if at all.

thats kind of what i was going for, the light/heavy attack healing would fit the theme of being spattered with blood and thriving in it, fitting both thematically and mechanically for making a melee centered vampire stand out over its ranged counterparts

Spectral_Force

I do sometimes wonder if it's possible to add a stun effect to Drain (the way the latest iteration of Drain used to work before the Greymoor update, on channel start), similar to the way vampires in Western Skyrim can stun you by doing exactly the same to you.

The problem with Drain currently is that it tries to do many things at the same time and falls short in just about all of them. Its damage is pitiful, even with the buffs over time, and its healing is underwhelming so you're better off using a dedicated heal ability. The only useful feature is ED's Ultimate generation, and even then it's mostly used to quickly build up Ultimate in preparation to the actual fight, both in PvP and PvE. Perhaps adding an additional effect on top of the pile of mediocre ones can push the ability into useful territory?

"But the Vampire skill line already has a stun in its toolkit, why would it need another one?"
I'm glad you asked, suspiciously convenient hypothetical forum-goer! Mesmerise and its morphs are already scorned by most of the community for being highly inconsistent due to the "facing your direction" requirement. If ZOS were to add a stun effect to Drain, Mesmerise would be made largely redundant, and can be replaced by a different, more useful, ability, such as a ranged damage skill, an AoE damage skill, a DoT, a gap closer, or even a summon, were you so inclined. Granted, the new stun will no longer be hitting multiple targets, but you'd already be lucky to stun even half of the group aggroed to you with Hypnosis, and, to quote a certain lord, that is a sacrifice that I am willing to make.

As for the other use for Mesmerise, being able to talk to traders while you're at Stage 4, after two years of consideration I've concluded that Stage 4 refusal of service is a wholly unnecessary feature. It doesn't affect your gameplay in any way except putting you through the inconvenience of having to slot Mesmerise/morphs on your skill bar before your interaction with traders, and then replacing it with the original skill when you're done. That's not to mention that, ever since the Greymoor PTS, this feature completely prevents you from talking to non-functional NPCs (ones that have a single line of dialogue leading to the Goodbye reply), since you can't Mesmerise them into wanting to talk to you. Besides, the NPC responses at Stage 4 are highly inconsistent, ranging from some appropriately terrified ones, like female Dunmer "Keep away, you understand? I'm warning you!"; to something frankly more suited to a half-sentient werewolf, like female Nord "Good creature, nice creature, j-just leave me alone."; to indifferent dismissals, like female Bosmer "Not interested."; to disgusted by your presence, like female Dunmer "That thing's so ugly it's criminal!"; to, puzzlingly enough, "Wanted criminals aren't welcome here" (female Nord), even when you have no bounty on you. Look it's not my fault the female responses are so much better at illustrating my point, ok? One of the male Dunmers even calls the guards, which doesn't place a bounty on you. Point being, people are just as likely to scream out in terror as they are to politely tell you to leave as they are to figuratively spit in your face, which, if this system was put in place for immersion, really does quite the opposite.

It's yet another area that the rework fell short in, unfortunately, and I think most players would agree. And if this is something that ZOS are really this attached to, a similar effect can be achieved by giving the option to [Persuade], [Intimidate], or [Bribe] (50ish gold maybe?) traders into willing to talk to you. Whatever the case, I'd like non-Trader NPCs to be excluded from this system entirely. I don't want to down Maras just to be able to hear flavour dialogue from random tavern-goers and daytalers.

Vevvev

Only thing I agree with is the HP regeneration part, but would've only changed the final value from -100% to -90%.

The health cost of the abilities on vampire these days is lower than it's ever been and you can sustain both Sated Fury and Blood for Blood with a single potent heal over time ability, and the Ring of the Pale Order makes the whole thing trivial.

If you want more healing then I think you should refocus your efforts not on a passive but a rework of how Vampiric Drain works. Right now it's a channel but if they made it a tether instead you don't have to stand around and wait on it'd be the heal you're looking for.