Infused Trait Small Pieces vs Divines?

moleculardrugs

Is this more beneficial than having divines and selecting the mundus stone like the Lord, Mage, or Tower? Or would you get more from using small pieces divines and large pieces infused?

Necrotech_Master

full perspective (assuming all gold items, and using both the health mundus buff and armor enchants)

with 7 divines:
3639 mundus health bonus + 4x386 (1544) small armor enchant + 3x954 (2826) large armor enchant = 8045 health bonus

with 7 infused traits:
2225 mundus health bonus + 4x463 (1852) small armor enchant + 3x1144 (3432) large armor enchant bonus = 7509 health bonus

with 3 divines (large pieces) and 4 infused (small pieces):
2829 mundus health bonus + 4x463 (1852) small armor enchant + 3x954 (2826) large armor enchant = 7626 health bonus

with 4 divines (small pieces) and 3 infused (large pieces):
2948 mundus health bonus + 4x386 (1544) small armor enchant + 3x1144 (3432) large armor enchant = 7924 health bonus

so if you used all health enchants with the lord mundus stone for more health, its mathematically better to go with all divines

(notes: the values of enchants for mag or stam on armor and the associated mundus values are slightly lower value than health)

edit: added 1 more case with 4 divines and 3 infused since that was the one you were asking for, and corrected some calcs
edit2: minor correctly in the 3rd case in the title, the math is still correct

moleculardrugs

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

full perspective (assuming all gold items, and using both the health mundus buff and armor enchants)

with 7 divines:
3639 mundus health bonus + 4x386 (1544) small armor enchant + 3x954 (2826) large armor enchant = 8045 health bonus

with 7 infused traits:
2225 mundus health bonus + 4x463 (1852) small armor enchant + 3x1144 (3432) large armor enchant bonus = 7509 health bonus

with 3 divines (small pieces) and 4 infused (large pieces):
2829 mundus health bonus + 4x463 (1852) small armor enchant + 3x954 (2826) large armor enchant = 7626 health bonus

with 4 divines (small pieces) and 3 infused (large pieces):
2948 mundus health bonus + 4x386 (1544) small armor enchant + 3x1144 (3432) large armor enchant = 7924 health bonus

so if you used all health enchants with the lord mundus stone for more health, its mathematically better to go with all divines

(notes: the values of enchants for mag or stam on armor and the associated mundus values are slightly lower value than health)

edit: added 1 more case with 4 divines and 3 infused since that was the one you were asking for, and corrected some calcs

Wow, thank you so much for providing all this math and work. I need a moment to study it but this is invaluable! Thank you

Necrotech_Master

moleculardrugs wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

full perspective (assuming all gold items, and using both the health mundus buff and armor enchants)

with 7 divines:
3639 mundus health bonus + 4x386 (1544) small armor enchant + 3x954 (2826) large armor enchant = 8045 health bonus

with 7 infused traits:
2225 mundus health bonus + 4x463 (1852) small armor enchant + 3x1144 (3432) large armor enchant bonus = 7509 health bonus

with 3 divines (small pieces) and 4 infused (large pieces):
2829 mundus health bonus + 4x463 (1852) small armor enchant + 3x954 (2826) large armor enchant = 7626 health bonus

with 4 divines (small pieces) and 3 infused (large pieces):
2948 mundus health bonus + 4x386 (1544) small armor enchant + 3x1144 (3432) large armor enchant = 7924 health bonus

so if you used all health enchants with the lord mundus stone for more health, its mathematically better to go with all divines

(notes: the values of enchants for mag or stam on armor and the associated mundus values are slightly lower value than health)

edit: added 1 more case with 4 divines and 3 infused since that was the one you were asking for, and corrected some calcs

Wow, thank you so much for providing all this math and work. I need a moment to study it but this is invaluable! Thank you

sometimes thats the easiest way to look at it is when you have all the numbers in front of you lol

Nestor

If you notice the bonus difference is real small between 3 Large Infused 4 Small Divines and all 7 Divines, it is better in my mind to have more Attributes when using one of the non attribute mundus, like Thief or Atronach.

I know that is not what you asked, but Mundus are free to swap. So infused on large may give you more build flexibility in the future.

Zama666

I like the flexibility of Divines - change the mundi for a different situation.

And yes, huge fan of Twice Born Star....the only one.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I am curios as to what the purpose of this build is? Stacking into health is generally not wildly advantageous, even as a tank. In fact, when I see a tank with like 50-60k health, I always cringe a bit.

Generally in PVE, you want full Divines unless you are a tank. In which case, you probably want sturdy or reinforced in some combo. In PVP, always start with full impen unless you know what you are doing and have a good reason to do something else.

Twice Born is not a bad set, but its not a great set. Its really the 2-4 bonus that keeps it out of the meta (that and the crit damage cap making Thief/Shadow a less optimal combo than it once was).

Necrotech_Master

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I am curios as to what the purpose of this build is? Stacking into health is generally not wildly advantageous, even as a tank. In fact, when I see a tank with like 50-60k health, I always cringe a bit.

Generally in PVE, you want full Divines unless you are a tank. In which case, you probably want sturdy or reinforced in some combo. In PVP, always start with full impen unless you know what you are doing and have a good reason to do something else.

Twice Born is not a bad set, but its not a great set. Its really the 2-4 bonus that keeps it out of the meta (that and the crit damage cap making Thief/Shadow a less optimal combo than it once was).

i just used health as an example to illustrate to the OP the stat differences when mixing infused/divines

Didgerion

moleculardrugs wrote: »

Is this more beneficial than having divines and selecting the mundus stone like the Lord, Mage, or Tower? Or would you get more from using small pieces divines and large pieces infused?

It really depends on what you try to achieve, as the math suggests, divines small pieces are slightly better than infused overall.

But lets assume you are after max stats but using recovery mundus, in this case infused small pieces work better for your goal.

Also the math above doesn't have an example for tristats glyphs which are giving 33% more stats than the regular ones, in that case infused is again the preferred one.

Dr_Con

Infused pants used to be meta.

With hybridization i don't even know anymore

FrancisCrawford

Infused is close to being as good as Divines on large pieces.

It is not close on small pieces.

Fortunately, the difference between a good and blah armor trait is only a tiny fraction of your DPS or other effectiveness.

WrathOfInnos

Full divines is the play, avoid infused. This is because multipliers on max resources were heavily nerfed a while back, and the base values on armor enchants and infused were not balanced accordingly.

Lughlongarm

=96

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

full perspective (assuming all gold items, and using both the health mundus buff and armor enchants)

with 7 divines:
3639 mundus health bonus + 4x386 (1544) small armor enchant + 3x954 (2826) large armor enchant = 8045 health bonus

with 7 infused traits:
2225 mundus health bonus + 4x463 (1852) small armor enchant + 3x1144 (3432) large armor enchant bonus = 7509 health bonus

with 3 divines (large pieces) and 4 infused (small pieces):
2829 mundus health bonus + 4x463 (1852) small armor enchant + 3x954 (2826) large armor enchant = 7626 health bonus

with 4 divines (small pieces) and 3 infused (large pieces):
2948 mundus health bonus + 4x386 (1544) small armor enchant + 3x1144 (3432) large armor enchant = 7924 health bonus

so if you used all health enchants with the lord mundus stone for more health, its mathematically better to go with all divines

(notes: the values of enchants for mag or stam on armor and the associated mundus values are slightly lower value than health)

edit: added 1 more case with 4 divines and 3 infused since that was the one you were asking for, and corrected some calcs
edit2: minor correctly in the 3rd case in the title, the math is still correct

Perhaps I'm missing something but there an error somewhere within your calculations. Also, there are much easier ways to get the requested result.

Each item piece of divine will add 202.4 health with Lord mundus(3642-2225)/7
Each big item piece with the health enchant and with the infused trait will add 238.5 health(1192.5-954)
Each small item piece with the health enchant and the infused trait will add 96.5 health (482.5 -386)

If your goal is to maximize max health, 4 divine(small item pieces) and 3 infused(big item pieces) is the way to go.
I have double checked on - https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Build_Editor and it seems to be inline with my calculations.

dmnqwk

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I am curios as to what the purpose of this build is? Stacking into health is generally not wildly advantageous, even as a tank. In fact, when I see a tank with like 50-60k health, I always cringe a bit.

Generally in PVE, you want full Divines unless you are a tank. In which case, you probably want sturdy or reinforced in some combo. In PVP, always start with full impen unless you know what you are doing and have a good reason to do something else.

Twice Born is not a bad set, but its not a great set. Its really the 2-4 bonus that keeps it out of the meta (that and the crit damage cap making Thief/Shadow a less optimal combo than it once was).

Why would you cringe at tanks with 50k health?
Self healing and shields for tanks are based upon max health significantly. With a cookie on you're going to have 20-22k magicka and stamina alongside 50k health. If you want to give up the health and drop it to 35k, you'll be able to get up to 28k stamina. So for 6k stamina you're netting 15k health. And that stamina is not 2 dodge rolls, it's unfortunately just the one.

When we look at 35k health tanks, they have 12k shields while 50k health tanks get an 18k shield. On top of this, running Equilibrium trades 4500 health for 3k magicka, meaning you'd be trading in 9k health to net that missing 6k resources. And since blocking on the magicka side is effective, plus a lot of tank abilities function off magicka in a lot of classes, it's plain to understand why it can be effective to run high health (aka high healing).

Of course in situations your damage matters, you can build down to 28-35k health (running dps food instead of sugar skull cookies) and pump out 30k dps while fully capable of tanking (though you tend not to slot heals for others in these builds as you slot extra dots instead).

Necrotech_Master

Lughlongarm wrote: »

=96

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

full perspective (assuming all gold items, and using both the health mundus buff and armor enchants)

with 7 divines:
3639 mundus health bonus + 4x386 (1544) small armor enchant + 3x954 (2826) large armor enchant = 8045 health bonus

with 7 infused traits:
2225 mundus health bonus + 4x463 (1852) small armor enchant + 3x1144 (3432) large armor enchant bonus = 7509 health bonus

with 3 divines (large pieces) and 4 infused (small pieces):
2829 mundus health bonus + 4x463 (1852) small armor enchant + 3x954 (2826) large armor enchant = 7626 health bonus

with 4 divines (small pieces) and 3 infused (large pieces):
2948 mundus health bonus + 4x386 (1544) small armor enchant + 3x1144 (3432) large armor enchant = 7924 health bonus

so if you used all health enchants with the lord mundus stone for more health, its mathematically better to go with all divines

(notes: the values of enchants for mag or stam on armor and the associated mundus values are slightly lower value than health)

edit: added 1 more case with 4 divines and 3 infused since that was the one you were asking for, and corrected some calcs
edit2: minor correctly in the 3rd case in the title, the math is still correct

Perhaps I'm missing something but there an error somewhere within your calculations. Also, there are much easier ways to get the requested result.

Each item piece of divine will add 202.4 health with Lord mundus(3642-2225)/7
Each big item piece with the health enchant and with the infused trait will add 238.5 health(1192.5-954)
Each small item piece with the health enchant and the infused trait will add 96.5 health (482.5 -386)

If your goal is to maximize max health, 4 divine(small item pieces) and 3 infused(big item pieces) is the way to go.
I have double checked on - https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Build_Editor and it seems to be inline with my calculations.

i wasnt sure when the game performed the rounding step (the final value is definitely rounded down), so was rounding everything, if it only rounds on the final value, then it should still be within a few points of the "actual" values (small enough numbers that would be considered negligible as far as the game is concerned)

WrathOfInnos

dmnqwk wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I am curios as to what the purpose of this build is? Stacking into health is generally not wildly advantageous, even as a tank. In fact, when I see a tank with like 50-60k health, I always cringe a bit.

Generally in PVE, you want full Divines unless you are a tank. In which case, you probably want sturdy or reinforced in some combo. In PVP, always start with full impen unless you know what you are doing and have a good reason to do something else.

Twice Born is not a bad set, but its not a great set. Its really the 2-4 bonus that keeps it out of the meta (that and the crit damage cap making Thief/Shadow a less optimal combo than it once was).

Why would you cringe at tanks with 50k health?
Self healing and shields for tanks are based upon max health significantly. With a cookie on you're going to have 20-22k magicka and stamina alongside 50k health. If you want to give up the health and drop it to 35k, you'll be able to get up to 28k stamina. So for 6k stamina you're netting 15k health. And that stamina is not 2 dodge rolls, it's unfortunately just the one.

When we look at 35k health tanks, they have 12k shields while 50k health tanks get an 18k shield. On top of this, running Equilibrium trades 4500 health for 3k magicka, meaning you'd be trading in 9k health to net that missing 6k resources. And since blocking on the magicka side is effective, plus a lot of tank abilities function off magicka in a lot of classes, it's plain to understand why it can be effective to run high health (aka high healing).

Of course in situations your damage matters, you can build down to 28-35k health (running dps food instead of sugar skull cookies) and pump out 30k dps while fully capable of tanking (though you tend not to slot heals for others in these builds as you slot extra dots instead).

@dmnqwk It could be a few reasons. Some
incoming damage scales with the player's health, and ignores mitigation. I believe this is to make certain attacks approximately equal threat to tanks, DPS and healers, but one side-effect is that health-stacking tanks receive much more damage and are difficult to heal.

Health stacking tanks also tend to neglect other parts of their build. They may not have the stamina or magicka required to keep important skills active. It could also be a sign of using tank sets like Plague Doctor over something like Yolnahkriin, which is generally frowned upon in end game content.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I am curios as to what the purpose of this build is? Stacking into health is generally not wildly advantageous, even as a tank. In fact, when I see a tank with like 50-60k health, I always cringe a bit.

Generally in PVE, you want full Divines unless you are a tank. In which case, you probably want sturdy or reinforced in some combo. In PVP, always start with full impen unless you know what you are doing and have a good reason to do something else.

Twice Born is not a bad set, but its not a great set. Its really the 2-4 bonus that keeps it out of the meta (that and the crit damage cap making Thief/Shadow a less optimal combo than it once was).

i just used health as an example to illustrate to the OP the stat differences when mixing infused/divines

Yes, but OP did mention the lord mundus, which was why I asked. He also mentioned the other two attribute mundus stones. Other than a PVP mag sorc, Stacking into one of your main attributes is almost never advisable. I see too many tanks in PVE try to do it.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

dmnqwk wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I am curios as to what the purpose of this build is? Stacking into health is generally not wildly advantageous, even as a tank. In fact, when I see a tank with like 50-60k health, I always cringe a bit.

Generally in PVE, you want full Divines unless you are a tank. In which case, you probably want sturdy or reinforced in some combo. In PVP, always start with full impen unless you know what you are doing and have a good reason to do something else.

Twice Born is not a bad set, but its not a great set. Its really the 2-4 bonus that keeps it out of the meta (that and the crit damage cap making Thief/Shadow a less optimal combo than it once was).

Why would you cringe at tanks with 50k health?
Self healing and shields for tanks are based upon max health significantly. With a cookie on you're going to have 20-22k magicka and stamina alongside 50k health. If you want to give up the health and drop it to 35k, you'll be able to get up to 28k stamina. So for 6k stamina you're netting 15k health. And that stamina is not 2 dodge rolls, it's unfortunately just the one.

When we look at 35k health tanks, they have 12k shields while 50k health tanks get an 18k shield. On top of this, running Equilibrium trades 4500 health for 3k magicka, meaning you'd be trading in 9k health to net that missing 6k resources. And since blocking on the magicka side is effective, plus a lot of tank abilities function off magicka in a lot of classes, it's plain to understand why it can be effective to run high health (aka high healing).

Of course in situations your damage matters, you can build down to 28-35k health (running dps food instead of sugar skull cookies) and pump out 30k dps while fully capable of tanking (though you tend not to slot heals for others in these builds as you slot extra dots instead).

@dmnqwk

Mostly what @WrathOfInnos said. I am not saying there arent very good tanks and tank builds that have high health. But I think a lot of bad (new) tanks assume the best thing to do is go all in on health. You neglect other areas of your build. I want my tanks chaining, CCing, buffing, debuffing, and spitting out warhorns like their life depends on it. This is a game of tradeoffs, so if you putt everything into health, you are ignoring other vital areas. Most of the best tank support sets dont have more than one line of health (see Yolna). So high health also usually means a very "selfish" setup (see Plague Doctor). I know some people hate the term Selfish when it comes to tank gear, but its accurate.

TLDR: As a general rule, when I see a 50-60k health tank, they just arent very good at buffing the group or controlling the battlefield.