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How Did We Go From the Eight Divines to the Nine Divines?

moleculardrugs
moleculardrugs
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I know that Talos ascended to godhood, but I'm not sure how that happens exactly. I was a lot younger when I played TES3 and TES4.

Talos, who's mortal name is TIber Septim conquered all of Tamriel and this somehow allowed him to become a god/part of the divines?

If anyone can explain, that'll be great. Thank you!
  • AVaelham
    AVaelham
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    There's a theory that Talos the god is actually a subsum of three different souls: Tiber Septim (or Hjalti Early-Beard) - the Breton/Nord warlord who conquered all of Tamriel, Zurin Arctus - the first Imperial Battlemage and Ysmir Wulfharth - the Dragon of the North. Somehow they have fused together and mantled the missing god Lorkhan, essentially taking his place.

    Then there's the theory of achieving CHIM, basically being able to comprehend the confines of the universe and travel beyond its confines, thus achieving a new level of consciousness. Sotha Sil speaks about it a little (albeit in riddles) in the Clockwork City DLC.

    Of course, there's also the Altmer's point of view: Tiber Septim was already venerated prior to his death and the story of his ascension to godhood could all be a mummer's farce.

    The Eight Divines aren't exactly known for their active involvement but since Akatosh didn't do anything about it, I suppose they 'allowed' Talos to join them.
  • Elendir2am
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    8 aedra participated on creating of Mundus. Mundus had been created long time agou, so it is closed club already. Tribunal or Talos are mostly imposters. Peoples who get enough power to force their will, bud there is nothing divine about them in aedra way.
  • boi_anachronism_
    boi_anachronism_
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    Elendir2am wrote: »
    8 aedra participated on creating of Mundus. Mundus had been created long time agou, so it is closed club already. Tribunal or Talos are mostly imposters. Peoples who get enough power to force their will, bud there is nothing divine about them in aedra way.

    Not entirely true. According to lore you can absolutely mantel a god and become one in the process. In cannon that's what happens to the hero of kvatch. He becomes sheogoroth after stopping the grey march I believe.
  • Soarora
    Soarora
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    Elendir2am wrote: »
    8 aedra participated on creating of Mundus. Mundus had been created long time agou, so it is closed club already. Tribunal or Talos are mostly imposters. Peoples who get enough power to force their will, bud there is nothing divine about them in aedra way.

    What is and what is not an Aedra is muddled in my opinion. Of course, Talos as people were born after the creation of Nirn. However, they are important figures in building some of the societies that inhabit Nirn... so could you call them an ancestor? That is, in the literal meaning of Aedra. In terms of the creation of Aedra, that's even more muddled. To my understanding, 7 of the Divines are Anuic, with Akatosh being Padomaic and Anuic. One could argue the Aedra must have a close connection to Anu but Lorkhan is Padomaic so is he an Aedra then (though, not a part of the 8)? He is THE ancestor so in the literal sense, yes...
    So what is Divine in an Aedra way if Aedra is hard to define? What are the deciding factors in who's an Aedra and who's not?
    Edited by Soarora on October 19, 2022 9:56PM
    PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore
  • DivineKitty
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    Soarora wrote: »
    What is and what is not an Aedra is muddled in my opinion. Of course, Talos as people were born after the creation of Nirn. However, they are important figures in building some of the societies that inhabit Nirn... so could you call them an ancestor? That is, in the literal meaning of Aedra. In terms of the creation of Aedra, that's even more muddled. To my understanding, 7 of the Divines are Anuic, with Akatosh being Padomaic and Anuic. One could argue the Aedra must have a close connection to Anu but Lorkhan is Padomaic so is he an Aedra then (though, not a part of the 8)? He is THE ancestor so in the literal sense, yes...
    So what is Divine in an Aedra way if Aedra is hard to define? What are the deciding factors in who's an Aedra and who's not?

    Who seems to be an Aedra and who isn't basically seems to be "Which side did they align with when Mundus was made" For example, Meridia was Originally Merid-Nunda, A MAgna-Ga, which were basically Aedra, And then she "consorted" with Daedra, and the Aedra Kicked her out. So, she started as an Aedra, but aligned with Daedra.

    Conversely, Daedric Prince Malacath was Originally the Aedra Trinimac, until Boethia got annoyed by him and took him down. (and Sometimes Mephala was there too) And despite being called a Daedric Prince, he never actually denounce the Aedra, and even his fellow princes refuse to acknowledge him as a Daedra, which is honestly on brand for him.

    Now, for Talos... you could honestly argue either way, but to say that he IS an Aedra you have to ask: IS Lorkhan an Aedra? He DID take part in the formation of the mundus, and he is worshiped as a Divine in some places (Skyrim, Aylied era Cyrodil) and if Talos managed to Mantle him, then logically, he would be an Aedra. BUT The Dunmer Tribunal ALSO stole Lorkhans power, directly taking it from his heart. In fact, I would argue that they have a Higher claim of being Aedra than Talos. They stole Lorkhans power directlky from the source, and we have actual, in-game evidence of this, where as Talo's claim is basically just himself saying it.

    TL;DR: Who classifies as Aedra and Daedra basically just seems to be up to the definition of the Prince themself, and if Lorkhan is Aedra, then so is Talos and the Tribunal
  • Elendir2am
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    Not entirely true. According to lore you can absolutely mantel a god and become one in the process. In cannon that's what happens to the hero of kvatch. He becomes sheogoroth after stopping the grey march I believe.

    There is no threshold you can overcome to ascend godhood. 8 Divines earn this position with creating mundus. You cannot say that they was more powerful or that there was some other clear difference from daedric princes for example.

    It is primarily about their merits. Their powers play only an indirect role in this (not everyone can create something like them).
    No other has ever come close to the merits of 8 divines. The others just have enough power to assert their place in history as "gods".
    Edited by Elendir2am on October 20, 2022 11:28AM
  • Bruccius
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    A bit late to the party, but the story goes that the Divines destined Talos with uniting the continent, and that for his deeds in life was rewarded with divinity.

    Do not make the mistake, however, that just because he became a God he became one of the Nine - the Eight/Nine Divines are a part of the Imperial Pantheon. Talos was included because they wanted to include him.
  • boi_anachronism_
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    Elendir2am wrote: »
    Not entirely true. According to lore you can absolutely mantel a god and become one in the process. In cannon that's what happens to the hero of kvatch. He becomes sheogoroth after stopping the grey march I believe.

    There is no threshold you can overcome to ascend godhood. 8 Divines earn this position with creating mundus. You cannot say that they was more powerful or that there was some other clear difference from daedric princes for example.

    It is primarily about their merits. Their powers play only an indirect role in this (not everyone can create something like them).
    No other has ever come close to the merits of 8 divines. The others just have enough power to assert their place in history as "gods".

    Right, and the daedra by avoiding creating mundus. The aedra are actually LESS powerful then the daedra as they sacrificed some of their power in creating mundus. And yes you can, in lore when you mantle a god you become them. Your essences merge. That's just how it is in lore. Period As far as the tribunal no, they aren't gods. They syphon the energy from lorkhan who held this power onto himself but they can not sustain their power without constantly recharging. If the heart disappears their power does also. Their is no secondary way to take lorkhans power by destroying a relic or something. He is powerful onto himself, the only way would be to completely merge with him .
    Edited by boi_anachronism_ on October 23, 2022 5:22PM
  • ColovianHastur
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    I know that Talos ascended to godhood, but I'm not sure how that happens exactly. I was a lot younger when I played TES3 and TES4.

    Talos, who's mortal name is TIber Septim conquered all of Tamriel and this somehow allowed him to become a god/part of the divines?

    If anyone can explain, that'll be great. Thank you!
    To put it simply, the addition of Tiber Septim to the Divines was purely a political move on part of the Church and the Elder Council - to appease both the Septims and the Talos Cult. The cult already existed while Tiber Septim was alive, managed to essentially take over the leadership of the Blades, and one of its branches even plotted to kill Uriel Septim VII during the events of Morrowind because they believed he was a weak emperor.
    The Nibenese find the numinous in everything around them, and their different cults are too numerous to mention (the most famous are the Cult of the Ancestor-Moth, the Cult of Heroes, the Cult of Tiber Septim, and the Cult of Emperor Zero).

    - Pocket Guide to the Empire
    There are rumors that Uriel will be visiting Vvardenfell in person. If so, we must act sooner than anticipated. We must watch his actions carefully and strike if the opportunity presents itself. We must also recruit more and swear them to the oath: That we shall die to put a strong man back on the throne of Tamriel.

    - Note from Oritius Maro
    However, this kowtowing to the Talos Cult and the Septim dynasty was not really popular. And we can see this in the Guide to the Imperial City (written during the late Third Era), where the writer openly criticizes the Elder Council's decision to place a statue of Talos in the middle of the Imperial City Arboretum instead of a statue of Akatosh, the king of the gods.

    For context, this statue is surrounded by the statues of the other divines, putting Talos in a place that should by all rights belong to Akatosh.
    In this beautiful garden you will find the famous Statues of the Nine Divines. In the center you will find the statue of Lord Talos, Emperor Tiber Septim. But is it right, that Talos should have this place of honor rather than Akatosh, king of gods? It is the scheming pride of the Elder Council, who sought favor with the sons of Talos, that is responsible for this shameful error.

    - Guide to the Imperial City

    All in all, Talos is a recognized as a god because he has cult that worships him and promotes his alleged divinity, much like Emperor Reman Cyrodiil (the founder of the Second Empire) is also worshipped as the Worldly God by his followers. He is claimed to be one of the Divines because the Talos Cult and its supporters grew powerful enough to declare his status as a Divine without much opposition.
  • Vrienda
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    It's messy and one of the weirder aspects of TES lore. Talos is more likely than not a genuine god, mantling the position Lorkhan would've held had he not been killed.

    He wasn't actually a god until the end of TES 2 however, many hundreds of years after Tiber Septim's death. The ending of that game basically caused the three oversouls making up 'Talos' (Tiber Septim, the Underking and Zurin Arctus) to retroactively become a god. It changed the past as well as the present. ESO takes place in the altered timeline caused by this, hence why Cyrodiil isn't a jungle.
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  • KingArthasMenethil
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    Vrienda wrote: »
    It's messy and one of the weirder aspects of TES lore. Talos is more likely than not a genuine god, mantling the position Lorkhan would've held had he not been killed.

    He wasn't actually a god until the end of TES 2 however, many hundreds of years after Tiber Septim's death. The ending of that game basically caused the three oversouls making up 'Talos' (Tiber Septim, the Underking and Zurin Arctus) to retroactively become a god. It changed the past as well as the present. ESO takes place in the altered timeline caused by this, hence why Cyrodiil isn't a jungle.

    TES2 didn't do that. That's just changes between the games not the Bionicle doing something as Cyrodiil was still a jungle in TES3 and that's after TES2 but before TES4 got hit with the LOTR bat. PGE1 was written after TES2 as Redguard was the game after TES2 and before TES3. This isn't some Dragon break changing the world this is just the devs changing things between games it's nothing more then that.
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  • Dr_Con
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    all it takes is 1 generation to rewrite the history books. even then you'll have people holding out and following "the old ways."
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