Healing should scale with max resources

OnGodiDoDis

I believe this is a step towards minimizing builds that stack maximim damage with maximum healing. This conundrum has lead to the majority of the PvP population neglecting their resource pool simply because burst is better than sustain. Sustain does not matter if the fight ends before you run out of resources. This holds true for bombers, gankers, glass cannons, ball groups, etc.

My suggestion is to make healing scale with maximum resources based on the resources they consume. Per say, if I use Regen, it should scale with max magicka. If I use Vigor, it should scale with max stamina. This may sound odd and unwarranted, but here's why this can be a necessary and healthy change for PvP:

Having healing scale with max resources will open up new build possibilities for everyone. No longer will the go-to builds be "just stack high damage" like Clever Alchemist and Burning Spellweave. People will have to invest points in their resource pool, rather than having insane amounts of health, therefore bringing the high HP meta to a more manageable level. Consequently, if people still want to be glass cannons by only stacking weapon and spell damage, they will no longer be able to survive sustained pressure because they do not have the healing power to do so.

I do foresee some issues with this change, however. By having to invest in our resource pools for survivability, I presume that overall damage will go down. For this reason, I suggest that only HoTs scale with max resources. This way, people will still be able to maintain their burst without having to worry about short-term survival. However, the problematic HoTs will no longer be able to carry glass cannon builds during sustained fights, making them more easy to be disposed of.

The scaling should also apply to proc sets. Damage-focused builds should not be able to outheal a healer. It neglects an entire playstyle. I've run in 3-man groups that do not require a healer because we can keep eachother alive so well. It's not skill, it's the high healing we provide each other, mainly the HoTs and healing sets. Unlike healing skills, healing sets should have a healing cap. Sets should never outperform any sort of skills, never. Sets are made to complement skills, not replace them. Powerfull sets like Mara's are replacing Purge and healing skills. This is why healing sets should have a cap added to them to prevent them from taking over.

Dem_kitkats1

I agree. I always thought it was strange that players did not have to make any concessions in their builds, and how high healing and damage mitigation is. It's not helping new players in the least, build and playstyle diversity is narrowing, and fights are long and unengaging when players simply don't die and that's the most effective way to play.

I see nothing wrong with damage being lower since the overall healing and mitigation to get through will be varied and lowered as well. This would also allow for playstyles other than burst builds to become more relevant and effective, which would allow for more variety within the game.

DDs need to be killable, healers and tanks need to fulfill their roles well in order for groups to be unkillable. Players need to make decisions to have balance, variety, and skill within the game.

DrSlaughtr

This has been suggested many times. I don't think we'll ever see it but I support the idea.

OBJnoob

I also support the idea. I think it should effect burst heals too though. We don't need to completely flip the ratio we just need to move the slider over a little until we find the right proportion.

As a bonus to this change it'd help PvP magsorcs a lot. Its basically just a great idea.

katorga

OBJnoob wrote: »

I also support the idea. I think it should effect burst heals too though. We don't need to completely flip the ratio we just need to move the slider over a little until we find the right proportion.

As a bonus to this change it'd help PvP magsorcs a lot. Its basically just a great idea.

I think ALL heals should scale from max mag / stam. All damage from max weapon / spell damage. All tanking skills such as block, bash, from max resistances. Differentiating the scaling for each skill archetypes would now present players with real, impactful trade-offs for how they build.

ZOS way back decided all classes can do all things. The end result is tanky damage dealers with healing equally as powerful as their damage. I can remember all of the complaints several years ago about how it was unbalanced that sorcerer damage shields, their defenses, scaled off their offensive stats - well healing has done just that from day 1.

Amottica

One of the early videos I saw, just before launch, the devs where showing off the game and demonstrated how a player could dps and heal.

The devs do not need to rely on a simplistic tool to manage healing in eso. As such there is no reason for the suggested change other than to try to make eso like other games.

OnGodiDoDis

Amottica wrote: »

One of the early videos I saw, just before launch, the devs where showing off the game and demonstrated how a player could dps and heal.

The devs do not need to rely on a simplistic tool to manage healing in eso. As such there is no reason for the suggested change other than to try to make eso like other games.

The only thing this change brings forth is ending the stacking of high damage and healing in one build. How is that making it the same as other games? Damage skills still scale off max resources as well, so it's not like investing in resources for healing will make anyone unable to do damage.

Amottica

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

One of the early videos I saw, just before launch, the devs where showing off the game and demonstrated how a player could dps and heal.

The devs do not need to rely on a simplistic tool to manage healing in eso. As such there is no reason for the suggested change other than to try to make eso like other games.

The only thing this change brings forth is ending the stacking of high damage and healing in one build. How is that making it the same as other games? Damage skills still scale off max resources as well, so it's not like investing in resources for healing will make anyone unable to do damage.

Because it does try to make it more like other games where a healer has weak dps and a dps has weak heals

Just pointing out that in PvP, and to a degree in PvE, players will gear to keep their heals and DPS up. FYI, DPS scales pretty well off max stats as well. It was not long ago pet sorcs stacked magicka because pets scaled off magicka

It would fail to do anything except get us to gear differently and make many healing sets worthless for healing (or require a redesign of many healing sets).

OBJnoob

@Amottica yes DPS scales off stats as well but the thing is there aren't as many buffs for max stat and that's why the only spec (magsorc) that builds for max stat DPS is the worst PvP spec in the game. Sorcs have more ways to buff it and use it than most but its still bad... So imagine everyone else. Sure people will try to change gear and have both but obviously they can't or they already would. It isn't as though my build has 7k weapon damage, 30k resists, but not 50k stam because I decided I didn't want the stam. If we could we would. We can't so we don't. Therefore as solo builds try to adapt they will end up with less of both... Or be forced to specialize.

I don't want to make this game like other games. But that doesn't mean we throw away good ideas just because another game works similarly. Nobody in this thread brought up another game as an example of what ESO should be like. That isn't the motive.

The problem is that the same guy who can burst you 30k in 2 seconds can heal himself 30k in 2 seconds. This makes for an annoyingly high time to kill and honestly devalues actual healers. And while I see your perspective that "this makes all specs viable" in a dks can do it NBS can do it templars can do it wardens can do it way... It also eliminates diversity of specs because there's only one way to build.

DrNukenstein

1 vote for max stat scaling, but keep it highest stat.

Biggest problems with it I see are:
-64 health builds now having very limited or even non existent healing on some classes while 64 pool builds have way better sustain, healing, and damage. With damage as low as it is right now, that's enough to make the tank meta swing too far in the opposite direction.
-Healing sets have lines of raw damage. Would take a considerable amount of reworking these sets to make them more specialized for healing than say crafty alfiq. This would have the extended effect of taking away these sets from builds that use them to supplement their damage (example, spell power cure)
-The people that lead to complaints about strong healing exploit strong healing and will still exploit strong healing.
-This change would take away the ability for players to swap some extra heals onto their bar to fill a healing gap on their team, while making it all about who got the team with the player that went in with a healer set up.

If they just flipped a switch for max stat heals, it would make it a more fun game for me but I think it would create a lot of problems in the pvp ecosystem. The biggest ones being inflation of the importance of dedicated healers in PVP, and being likely to create a one shot meta

OBJnoob

^

---

I think the importance of healers needs to be inflated because right now it isn't important enough... And even if you think they are, are they building the same as DPS just slotting different abilities? Is every solo build running rallying cry so much different from every healer running transmutation or spc?

Also I don't think it'd create a 1 shot meta. If we're talking bad players then they already get 3-shot in 1-GCD so... No big deal. If we're talking good players then they'll sacrifice some damage for heals and damage -v- healing in 1v1s will remain basically unchanged it'll just be in groups where you see people specializing. Which is kinda the goal I think?

aurelius_fx

sad how this thread will most likely be ignored but yes, good idea suggested many times that wouldn't even necessarily be a nerf
+
stop making possible to stack radiating regens/vigors

Metemsycosis

Outside of specific gear options I think it is bad policy to make invested offense translate automatically to an invested defense. I admire the elegance but still feel it is bad for balance.

It doesn't stop with with stacking spell damage or weapon damage, tho; in the case of healing, critical modifiers play their part too.

So while I agree with the OP I think there should be a way to address critical healing modifiers. Does crit apply even if spell or weapon damage isn't the main source of the healing potency?

Amottica

OBJnoob wrote: »

Sure people will try to change gear and have both but obviously they can't or they already would.

Currently, there is no need to stack max stat so it is an assumption that "they can't or they already would". Also, we are really only talking PvP where players' stats do not have to be optimal so it will be very easy for players to stack max stat and still do well with healing and damage.

Since the pet sorc used to benefit pretty much from magicka they looked for every means to increase their magicka and some hit some really absurd numbers, mostly due to non-sorc buffs. Clearly, the sorc buff to max stats can only account for so much.

The history of this game has proven that players will find a way when aspects of the game change. This is why the change would be fruitless.

OnGodiDoDis

Amottica wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Sure people will try to change gear and have both but obviously they can't or they already would.

Currently, there is no need to stack max stat so it is an assumption that "they can't or they already would". Also, we are really only talking PvP where players' stats do not have to be optimal so it will be very easy for players to stack max stat and still do well with healing and damage.

Since the pet sorc used to benefit pretty much from magicka they looked for every means to increase their magicka and some hit some really absurd numbers, mostly due to non-sorc buffs. Clearly, the sorc buff to max stats can only account for so much.

The history of this game has proven that players will find a way when aspects of the game change. This is why the change would be fruitless.

Or just make damage scale more with spell and weapon damage than with resources. Now there's no need to worry about max resources dps.

Amottica

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Sure people will try to change gear and have both but obviously they can't or they already would.

Currently, there is no need to stack max stat so it is an assumption that "they can't or they already would". Also, we are really only talking PvP where players' stats do not have to be optimal so it will be very easy for players to stack max stat and still do well with healing and damage.

Since the pet sorc used to benefit pretty much from magicka they looked for every means to increase their magicka and some hit some really absurd numbers, mostly due to non-sorc buffs. Clearly, the sorc buff to max stats can only account for so much.

The history of this game has proven that players will find a way when aspects of the game change. This is why the change would be fruitless.

Or just make damage scale more with spell and weapon damage than with resources. Now there's no need to worry about max resources dps.

Besides the fact I pointed out in my first post that this is not what Zenimax consciously chose to create (and demonstrate) and that they have means to manage healing as I also pointed out in that same post.

I will leave it at that since it says it all and I have made clear I think the suggestion is not sound. I do thank you for presenting the suggestion as Zenimax does look at all suggestions for ones they think are a good fit for the game.

Good luck with your suggestion to Zenimax

taugrim

aurelius_fx wrote: »

stop making possible to stack radiating regens/vigors

I think this is the first thing that should be corrected. There's no reason for the same HoT to stack more than maybe twice at max on a given target.

I don't have as much of an issue with players stacking max stats, either Stam/Mag or WD/SD, because it comes at a cost (lower Health pool, lower resource pools, lower armor / smaller bubbles, lower sustain, etc).

Iriidius

I dont like proc scaling split between wpn/spell dmg and max mag/stam and I also dont want this split for normal skills. Skills are scaling with wpn or spell dmg + max offensive ressoursse(stam or mag)/10.45 since the beginning of the game, why do we have to change it now and the idea is so hyped? Players that have higher dmg and more tankiness( and more sustain) will find a way to also have more max mag/stam than other players. Mag/stam stacking was meta in 2018/19(shacklebreaker, bonepirat/brightthroath, sometimes also draugr hulk/alfiq), rare in greymoor/stonethorn/markarth and got nerfed even more when they removed old champion point system with 20% extra ressoursses and compensated with higher base ressoursses so you dont have to invest into ressoursses anymore. Now max stam/mag is much worse than wpn/spell dmg and also worse then crit when before it was a viable alternative to wpn dmg and better than useless crit. Max Health lost 20% extra too, but while max stam can be replaced by wpn dmg and stam recovery and mag by spell dmg and mag recovery, max health cant be replaced by other stats(resi, healing, hp regen(nerfed)) so easy. attribute points and armour glyphs can only give magicka, hp or stamina, so many people invest in health because the other stats are seen as useless. If stamina and magicka would be buffed again(set boni, attribute points, glyphs, juwelry trait give more mag/stam or offensive ressoursse scales higher), less people would put attribute points or armor glyphs in health. forcing players to choose a between dmg, healing and tankiness will hurt solo players while groups can still have it all.

mocap

Isn't it the same now?

43k magicka pool. Radiant regen tooltip: 17268
35k magicka pool. Radiant regen tooltip: 15150

OBJnoob

Amottica wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Sure people will try to change gear and have both but obviously they can't or they already would.

Currently, there is no need to stack max stat so it is an assumption that "they can't or they already would". Also, we are really only talking PvP where players' stats do not have to be optimal so it will be very easy for players to stack max stat and still do well with healing and damage.

It is not an assumption that there is a finite amount of gear bonuses you can wear and you can only build so high. Nor is it an assumption that adding more max stat bonuses to an existing character requires you to lose something else you had.

Also, most pvpers do actually try to be optimal. Due to lack of gold or time I will admit that my characters fall short of optimal sometimes... But that's just me being honest. The assertion that PvP players don't try to get the maximum combination of damage, protection, max stat, and recovery is kinda... Ridiculous.

maxjapank

Sorry. I am 100% against this. Both dmg and resources should be important for both dmg and healing. The reason players stack dmg right now and not resources is because it is so much easier to get dmg up high ( major/minor sorcery, spc, powerful assault, bonus from taking resources, etc.) than it is for resources. This happened when they took cp pts from giving 20% bonus to resources. (granted we did receive flat boosts to all 3 resources as compensation at the time, though).

If anything, they should lower the amount of max resource necessary to reach similar numbers with max dmg. And personally, I would prefer to see regen and sustain become more important to the total equation. Having to make a choice between having enough resources from regen or total to begin with should be more of a thing than it is now.

DrSlaughtr

maxjapank wrote: »

Sorry. I am 100% against this. Both dmg and resources should be important for both dmg and healing. The reason players stack dmg right now and not resources is because it is so much easier to get dmg up high ( major/minor sorcery, spc, powerful assault, bonus from taking resources, etc.) than it is for resources. This happened when they took cp pts from giving 20% bonus to resources. (granted we did receive flat boosts to all 3 resources as compensation at the time, though).

If anything, they should lower the amount of max resource necessary to reach similar numbers with max dmg. And personally, I would prefer to see regen and sustain become more important to the total equation. Having to make a choice between having enough resources from regen or total to begin with should be more of a thing than it is now.

The argument is that if you want to be an excellent healer, whether for self or group, you would forego damage sets for max stat sets. This would make you less effective as a damage dealer, because tooltips scale a little less with max stat vs damage.

So if you ignore pushing your max stamina or mag up, your heals would be a little weaker than a healer who could push for higher stats with sets that focus on resource pools rather than straight damage. Either way, it wouldn't be a drastic difference. It's not like you still couldn't heal yourself with 25k magicka or stamina. But someone who isn't building to drop 6.5k+ weapon damage would have a better healing output with 35k magicka or stamina.

Even if it ends up being a 2k tooltip difference, that isn't so severe that a DD couldn't sustain themselves, but it certainly would make it less likely for them to absorb massive damage while running around waiting for their ultimate to pop.

Amottica

OBJnoob wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Sure people will try to change gear and have both but obviously they can't or they already would.

Currently, there is no need to stack max stat so it is an assumption that "they can't or they already would". Also, we are really only talking PvP where players' stats do not have to be optimal so it will be very easy for players to stack max stat and still do well with healing and damage.

It is not an assumption that there is a finite amount of gear bonuses you can wear and you can only build so high. Nor is it an assumption that adding more max stat bonuses to an existing character requires you to lose something else you had.

Also, most pvpers do actually try to be optimal. Due to lack of gold or time I will admit that my characters fall short of optimal sometimes... But that's just me being honest. The assertion that PvP players don't try to get the maximum combination of damage, protection, max stat, and recovery is kinda... Ridiculous.

Optimal build means optimal for doing what the player wants to do in PvP. So it is an assumption that they would ignore that they can work around such a change by stacking max stats. We know this because their has been a meta build before (in PvE) that stacked max stats and did not touch any 5pc set bonuses to be optimal at both healing and damage.

And again, as already mentioned, the suggestion does not fit the conscious design of the game Zenimax chose to build. That is the mountain such a suggestion needs to climb and is not being addressed. The argument is not with me as I already said no way.

katorga

Amottica wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

One of the early videos I saw, just before launch, the devs where showing off the game and demonstrated how a player could dps and heal.

The devs do not need to rely on a simplistic tool to manage healing in eso. As such there is no reason for the suggested change other than to try to make eso like other games.

The only thing this change brings forth is ending the stacking of high damage and healing in one build. How is that making it the same as other games? Damage skills still scale off max resources as well, so it's not like investing in resources for healing will make anyone unable to do damage.

FYI, DPS scales pretty well off max stats as well.

Max stats scales horribly.

There are no equivalents to major/minor sorcery/brutality for magicka and stamina. Not to mention medium armor passives (2% per piece), Fighter's Guild (3% per skill slotted), Sorcerer (2% per class skill slotted). Templar (6% class passive).

Investing in large resource pools for is hugely inefficient compared to investing in weapon/spell damage.

OBJnoob

Amottica wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Sure people will try to change gear and have both but obviously they can't or they already would.

Currently, there is no need to stack max stat so it is an assumption that "they can't or they already would". Also, we are really only talking PvP where players' stats do not have to be optimal so it will be very easy for players to stack max stat and still do well with healing and damage.

It is not an assumption that there is a finite amount of gear bonuses you can wear and you can only build so high. Nor is it an assumption that adding more max stat bonuses to an existing character requires you to lose something else you had.

Also, most pvpers do actually try to be optimal. Due to lack of gold or time I will admit that my characters fall short of optimal sometimes... But that's just me being honest. The assertion that PvP players don't try to get the maximum combination of damage, protection, max stat, and recovery is kinda... Ridiculous.

Optimal build means optimal for doing what the player wants to do in PvP.

Exactly. And at the moment there are two types of optimal. HP tanks and everybody else. Everybody else stacks weapon damage whether they are gankers, bombers, brawlers, or healers.

You say "optimal to do what you want to do," as though that makes a difference. I'm trying to convince you it doesn't... But it should. Unless of course what someone "wants to do" is die over and over.

Amottica

OBJnoob wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Sure people will try to change gear and have both but obviously they can't or they already would.

Currently, there is no need to stack max stat so it is an assumption that "they can't or they already would". Also, we are really only talking PvP where players' stats do not have to be optimal so it will be very easy for players to stack max stat and still do well with healing and damage.

It is not an assumption that there is a finite amount of gear bonuses you can wear and you can only build so high. Nor is it an assumption that adding more max stat bonuses to an existing character requires you to lose something else you had.

Also, most pvpers do actually try to be optimal. Due to lack of gold or time I will admit that my characters fall short of optimal sometimes... But that's just me being honest. The assertion that PvP players don't try to get the maximum combination of damage, protection, max stat, and recovery is kinda... Ridiculous.

Optimal build means optimal for doing what the player wants to do in PvP.

I'm trying to convince you it doesn't

and you have not because I know better.

Zenimax makes changes followed by the "meta" and how we gear changes. This is a fact that has been proven accurate time and time again. So a change like this will would bring about a change to those who want both effective heals and damage which is a very common type of build in PvP.

Even then, part of my comment you edited out is not addressed and that is the most important comment in this thread and the only one that needs to be dealt with.

OnGodiDoDis

mocap wrote: »

Isn't it the same now?

43k magicka pool. Radiant regen tooltip: 17268
35k magicka pool. Radiant regen tooltip: 15150

No, that just means that max resources alone are useless for either damage or healing. I have almost 40k regen on my dps with 29k magicka. This just proves my point that resource pools are useless, especially now that Restoration staves return more resources than ever. High sustain compensates for a low resource pool. I have no bonuses to my magicka pool other than set bonuses, even my jewelry glyphs are spell damage, and I never run out of resources.

taugrim

Amottica wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Also, we are really only talking PvP where players' stats do not have to be optimal so it will be very easy for players to stack max stat and still do well with healing and damage.

This is only true of low MMR in BGs.

In mid-to-high MMR in BGs, people are optimizing heavily, and it's noticeable.

JerBearESO

i agree we need a slight seperation of scaling for damage and healing, but this is a bad way.... for pvp, where it matters, we would simply see a max resource meta.

my necro already builds 35k stam. i have 23k hp and 23k armor. i am tanky.... this is because my healing from HoTs is so high and rapid that only insta burst can cut through, for the most part. and yes, i still have plenty of damage with my 20k stalking blastbones.

so we see, the idea would not solve anything, it would just refocus the meta into high resource builds.

we need a full trade off here. damage scales best with wep/spell damage, and healing scales best with resources. likely +/- 50% of current rates. so we would have:

Damage scaling from wep/spell damage = 150% what we have on live.
Damage scaling from resources = 50% what we have on live.
Healing/Shielding scaling from wep/spell damage = 50% what we have on live.
Healing/Shielding scaling from resources = 150% what we have on live.

DrSlaughtr

JerBearESO wrote: »

i agree we need a slight seperation of scaling for damage and healing, but this is a bad way.... for pvp, where it matters, we would simply see a max resource meta.

my necro already builds 35k stam. i have 23k hp and 23k armor. i am tanky.... this is because my healing from HoTs is so high and rapid that only insta burst can cut through, for the most part. and yes, i still have plenty of damage with my 20k stalking blastbones.

so we see, the idea would not solve anything, it would just refocus the meta into high resource builds.

we need a full trade off here. damage scales best with wep/spell damage, and healing scales best with resources. likely +/- 50% of current rates. so we would have:

Damage scaling from wep/spell damage = 150% what we have on live.
Damage scaling from resources = 50% what we have on live.
Healing/Shielding scaling from wep/spell damage = 50% what we have on live.
Healing/Shielding scaling from resources = 150% what we have on live.

I understand what you mean but I think you aren't seeing every angle.

There are no sets that give both significant damage and significant resources. Shacklebreaker is the closest. But you have to double bar it which would be a significant commitment. It would mean you couldn't run a mythic or a full monster set, which is another sacrifice.

I'm not sure what you're wearing to have that much stamina, even with dark elf, but that really isn't proof of anything.

Let me give you an example. On a cat nightblade in medium and light armor, all offensive sets with 27k health, 23k stamina and 21k Magicka, I can out heal and absorb amount of damage and kite, when I absolutely should be dead. It's silly to see me leading around 2 or 3 brawlers not even cloak just refreshing to 100 around every rock.

Alternately they could decrease the damage scaling toward heals but that might make more people mad.

OnGodiDoDis

JerBearESO wrote: »

i agree we need a slight seperation of scaling for damage and healing, but this is a bad way.... for pvp, where it matters, we would simply see a max resource meta.

my necro already builds 35k stam. i have 23k hp and 23k armor. i am tanky.... this is because my healing from HoTs is so high and rapid that only insta burst can cut through, for the most part. and yes, i still have plenty of damage with my 20k stalking blastbones.

so we see, the idea would not solve anything, it would just refocus the meta into high resource builds.

we need a full trade off here. damage scales best with wep/spell damage, and healing scales best with resources. likely +/- 50% of current rates. so we would have:

Damage scaling from wep/spell damage = 150% what we have on live.
Damage scaling from resources = 50% what we have on live.
Healing/Shielding scaling from wep/spell damage = 50% what we have on live.
Healing/Shielding scaling from resources = 150% what we have on live.

The intended message here was to suggest that healing scale better with resources than with spell/weapon damage and damage scale better with S/W damage than with resources.