Stumbled across this video talking about a huge problem in ESO. Do you feel the same as this video?

Red_Feather

Recently I got back into the game due to the sales and events. I have been watching youtube videos to catch up and saw this video. Dottz has a very good point at 2:26. The whole video is worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU_rpgIU1vA

What do you guys think?

In a past dev stream, I threw out a suggestion that the game could use a 'curse system'. For every campaign final antagonist you beat, they curse you. You can toggle the curses you have unlocked on and off at a Shrine of Arkay. The curses don't change the world but change how the world affects you. Stacking those curses is a way to push difficulty up in increments that will help players get better for endgame content.

kevkj

I agree that it would be better for player progression if normal group content was adjusted to be slightly closer to veteran. This change would likely be opposed for two reasons.

• Players who cannot or will not play veteran difficulty will not like their preferred difficulty setting being made more difficult. For the most part, being challenged is not why they play this game or normal is already too challenging. This could be remediated by an even easier story mode that is scaled for 1-2 players instead of 4.
• Normal mode is currently used as farm runs by players, any increase in difficulty would lengthen the farm time. Whether or not this is a legitimate argument against an increased difficulty or not is up for debate.

I think making any adjustments to overland difficulty at this point in time would upset too many people, it cannot be done. The one I would like to see is increased delve/public dungeon difficulty and/or more aggressive instancing in these areas so that they aren't just full of dead enemies 90% of the time.

BahometZ

Normal hard mode could be a thing...

mrfrontman

Stumbled across this video talking about a huge problem in ESO. Do you feel the same as this video?

idk.. What does it feel like to be a video?

kargen27

I think there is already an intermediate level to dungeons and trials. Vet level without activating hard mode would be the intermediate level. There is a heck of a jump in normal DLC and vet DLC but most groups if they do not ignore the mechanics can finish vet level content.
A progression group I am in runs a vet trial once a week and so far the longest one was Cloudrest. It took us four or five months of once a week tries to finally finish vet Cloudrest. First try we wiped often on first boss. Eventually we were getting to the final boss easy enough and struggled for quite a while on that fight.
Now when we go back to CLoudrest it is hard to imagine why we had all those problems. It seems much easier. I think the difficulty level is fine. Sure it might take several times to actually finish but it does feel pretty good when you make it to the end.

spartaxoxo

Overland prepares you for normal dungeons and trials. It is those that are supposed to prepare you vet dungeons and trials, and the dlc does a good job of it. The knowledge gap from people who actually give a single piece of care from the game is not about stuff like dodging. It's generally stuff like weaving and gearing

TaSheen

No. I don't have any interest in group content. In soloing, dodging is difficult on my high ping connect so it doesn't happen. I spend a lot of time blocking.

FluffWit

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Overland prepares you for normal dungeons and trials. It is those that are supposed to prepare you vet dungeons and trials, and the dlc does a good job of it. The knowledge gap from people who actually give a single piece of care from the game is not about stuff like dodging. It's generally stuff like weaving and gearing

I don't think normal prepares you for vet very well at all. Normal is so easy almost all mechanics can be ignored while healers and tanks are almost never needed.

spartaxoxo

FluffWit wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Overland prepares you for normal dungeons and trials. It is those that are supposed to prepare you vet dungeons and trials, and the dlc does a good job of it. The knowledge gap from people who actually give a single piece of care from the game is not about stuff like dodging. It's generally stuff like weaving and gearing

I don't think normal prepares you for vet very well at all. Normal is so easy almost all mechanics can be ignored while healers and tanks are almost never needed.

I think the later dlc are better about that, though I think that's definitely true with the earliest dlc and all of the base game stuff. Sure you do not necessarily need a tank or anything, but you can see the mechanics more clearly. And I often hear things like "Oh I bet that one shots on Vet."

FrancisCrawford

BahometZ wrote: »

Normal hard mode could be a thing...

There should be a simple toggle for increased difficulty, with no default rewards other than the fun of the challenge itself.

Any tangible rewards should be separated out via quests or endeavors or achievements or whatever.

I stress "simple toggle" so as to serve the players who want to zoom through trash but would welcome harder fights with quest bosses.


The same technology could enable a toggle for easier difficulty, to serve the players who want dungeon story mode.

MidniteOwl1913

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Overland prepares you for normal dungeons and trials. It is those that are supposed to prepare you vet dungeons and trials, and the dlc does a good job of it. The knowledge gap from people who actually give a single piece of care from the game is not about stuff like dodging. It's generally stuff like weaving and gearing

Normal mode dungeons regardless of DLC do little if anything to prepare you for vet content. Not even close.

There is a reason people keep saying healers and tanks are not needed for normal-mode dungeons.

MidniteOwl1913

spartaxoxo wrote: »

FluffWit wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Overland prepares you for normal dungeons and trials. It is those that are supposed to prepare you vet dungeons and trials, and the dlc does a good job of it. The knowledge gap from people who actually give a single piece of care from the game is not about stuff like dodging. It's generally stuff like weaving and gearing

I don't think normal prepares you for vet very well at all. Normal is so easy almost all mechanics can be ignored while healers and tanks are almost never needed.

I think the later dlc are better about that, though I think that's definitely true with the earliest dlc and all of the base game stuff. Sure you do not necessarily need a tank or anything, but you can see the mechanics more clearly. And I often hear things like "Oh I bet that one shots on Vet."

No not really. For instance in Unhallowed grave the kilm, the mechanic is for one player to hop above see which rune is lite and them tell the tank to direct the boss there. The group is then protected from the fire. On normal no one *ever* does that because the healer just heals them thru it, or they heal themselves thru it. If that's all you ever did you wouldn't even know ther was a mechanic. That is common in a lot normal content.

prof-dracko

If they made all dungeons soloable, running normal dungeons solo would be good training for vet. You actually need to learn mechanics (or how to best heal through them) when you don't have backup. Sadly the infamous levers and interrupt mechanics keep that from being a thing.

chessalavakia_ESO

Not exactly.

I'd agree that the game does have issues with difficulty but, I'd generally disagree with how they suggest to address it.

When I first did dungeons, I learned next to nothing from them. This wasn't because the content was too easy for me. This was because the people I was grouped with rushed everything and frequently did ridiculous damage to the point that the mechanics are skipped or only briefly occur.

When I occasionally ended up with groups where the players weren't as good I did learn some and the fights weren't necessarily that much in the too easy column.

If I'm leveling a character and I hit 45 I stop queuing for Random Normal Dungeons because I might land on one of the harder DLC Dungeons that I haven't played much and while I have no doubts that it would generally be a success if people stuck with it but many of the people I run into in dungeons just want an easy run and it might not be that if I bring a character that isn't set up that well and people leave.

This damage problem even extends into Veteran Dungeons. I forced myself to do a few runs over the past couple weeks to unlock some more monster helms for some experiments and the difficulty of the runs massively fluctuated based on the amount of damage that the groups did. Some of the runs were so clean and fast I could barely tell I was on Veteran from how fast everything died.

As a result, I don't think increasing the difficulty in normal by a small amount is going to really serve much of a benefit.

I think some people forget that the tutorials are trying to balance informing people with selling people on the game.

Having additional tutorials that provide more detail that are optional might be beneficial (Personally, I'd suggest adding an Undaunted Quest intro that puts you into a dungeon with Undaunted AI that represent Tanks, Healers, and DPS that teach you as the Dungeon goes on with humor.) loading the existing tutorials with more information that isn't necessary can easily ram into negative outcomes with people getting turned off before they start.

FrancisCrawford

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

FluffWit wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Overland prepares you for normal dungeons and trials. It is those that are supposed to prepare you vet dungeons and trials, and the dlc does a good job of it. The knowledge gap from people who actually give a single piece of care from the game is not about stuff like dodging. It's generally stuff like weaving and gearing

I don't think normal prepares you for vet very well at all. Normal is so easy almost all mechanics can be ignored while healers and tanks are almost never needed.

I think the later dlc are better about that, though I think that's definitely true with the earliest dlc and all of the base game stuff. Sure you do not necessarily need a tank or anything, but you can see the mechanics more clearly. And I often hear things like "Oh I bet that one shots on Vet."

No not really. For instance in Unhallowed grave the kilm, the mechanic is for one player to hop above see which rune is lite and them tell the tank to direct the boss there. The group is then protected from the fire. On normal no one *ever* does that because the healer just heals them thru it, or they heal themselves thru it. If that's all you ever did you wouldn't even know ther was a mechanic. That is common in a lot normal content.

I didn't realize that's how "everybody" does it. I've only done Unhallowed Grave on normal and I've only done it with the going up to check.

prof-dracko

I've actually found recently that these DLC dungeons are actually more fun to do as a 2-person run. You have the benefit of teamwork and nothing dies too quickly.

wolfie1.0.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

BahometZ wrote: »

Normal hard mode could be a thing...

There should be a simple toggle for increased difficulty, with no default rewards other than the fun of the challenge itself.

Any tangible rewards should be separated out via quests or endeavors or achievements or whatever.

I stress "simple toggle" so as to serve the players who want to zoom through trash but would welcome harder fights with quest bosses.


The same technology could enable a toggle for easier difficulty, to serve the players who want dungeon story mode.

There is a simple toggle for it though. Its called a CP reset and go into fights without CP.

I know a twitch streamer friend that does naked dungeon runs. goes into dungeons with 4 players with level 1 non set weapons and level 1 foods and group members CP on. nothing else they can only use what they pick up in said dungeon and then dump everything and move on to the next one.

i personally have gone around doing quests and stuff with no weapons. quite interesting that.

I know another player that carried 0 soul gems on their character and everytime they died they had delete their character and start over at character creation...

you could even make things more difficult by throttling your own connection to the game.

My point here is that there are actually several ways you could make your play experience more difficult than it already is, you just have to put some effort into it.

It really isn't that hard to make the content more difficult for yourself.... difficulty is not the answer.

What we need is fun, a willingness to engage, and various levels of challenges. there needs to be a hill to climb and a path up that hill that is transitional and not a vertical cliff to scale.

Muizer

Vid's got a point about the problem. Personally don't like the solution.

The gap I experience primarily concerns "mechanics" becoming way more deadly. I don't like "mechanics". A nicer progression of difficulty for me would be like the one from overland to what Craglorn used to be. Just tougher and harder hitting opponents. But please spare me the "mechanics" The whole concept of making the choreography of mechanics part of combat is not for me.

Eliahnus

Muizer wrote: »

The gap I experience primarily concerns "mechanics" becoming way more deadly. I don't like "mechanics". A nicer progression of difficulty for me would be like the one from overland to what Craglorn used to be. Just tougher and harder hitting opponents. But please spare me the "mechanics" The whole concept of making the choreography of mechanics part of combat is not for me.

My sentiment exactly !

FrancisCrawford

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

BahometZ wrote: »

Normal hard mode could be a thing...

There should be a simple toggle for increased difficulty, with no default rewards other than the fun of the challenge itself.

Any tangible rewards should be separated out via quests or endeavors or achievements or whatever.

I stress "simple toggle" so as to serve the players who want to zoom through trash but would welcome harder fights with quest bosses.


The same technology could enable a toggle for easier difficulty, to serve the players who want dungeon story mode.

There is a simple toggle for it though. Its called a CP reset and go into fights without CP.

I know a twitch streamer friend that does naked dungeon runs. goes into dungeons with 4 players with level 1 non set weapons and level 1 foods and group members CP on. nothing else they can only use what they pick up in said dungeon and then dump everything and move on to the next one.

i personally have gone around doing quests and stuff with no weapons. quite interesting that.

I know another player that carried 0 soul gems on their character and everytime they died they had delete their character and start over at character creation...

you could even make things more difficult by throttling your own connection to the game.

My point here is that there are actually several ways you could make your play experience more difficult than it already is, you just have to put some effort into it.

It really isn't that hard to make the content more difficult for yourself.... difficulty is not the answer.

What we need is fun, a willingness to engage, and various levels of challenges. there needs to be a hill to climb and a path up that hill that is transitional and not a vertical cliff to scale.

I guess with the armory assistant that's all somewhat simpler than before.

Finedaible

The large gaps between Normal and Veteran difficulties are the most problematic in my opinion. There is also a stark difference between Normal base game dungeons and "Normal" DLC dungeons with no clear or discernible way to differentiate enemy difficulty until you get smeared across the floor, which further exacerbates the problem. I had the same experience as the commentator in the video had with Maelstrom when it came to tackling dlc dungeons on normal for the first time. As a new player the sensation of the spiked difficulty itself wasn't as jarring as was the lack of indicators of what I was getting into. With no stats like enemy levels or enemy resistances to give players an idea of what they are going up against, it becomes frustrating to bump into a wall you didn't see coming. All players can see is that this mob right here has a huge screen-wide hp bar that gets melted like nothing and then they face the another identical hp bar somewhere else yet get stomped in a second. There's just no consistency between the two.

kargen27

The gaps may be large when comparing normal and vet of the same dungeon/trial. If you progress through vet like you did on the first character with normal it isn't as much a jump. You shouldn't jump right into the harder vet dungeons without first running the easier ones. That way the increase in difficulty isn't nearly as steep.

kaushad

Dottz seems to almost equalise overland and group content. He seems to be ignoring players like me who are so bad that they can't complete Normal Vateshran's Hollows and don't want to complete the likes of Normal Maelstrom Arena or the White Golf Tower again. I'd rather not find that the only dungeon I can play is the Fungal Grotto I, if that. A tier between Normal and Veteran sounds like a much better idea to make Veteran content more accessible.

As for his second idea, I can't stand front loaded instructions in most situations. I'd rather learn how to do things when I find out why I need them. A new player could easily forget such concepts if they spend the next few weeks on just story quests anyway. ESO isn't really linear enough to drip feed tutorial content like some video games, but maybe there could be places that you could visit any time for that sort of training.