Early Game Cards decide the match too much

spartaxoxo

Often times you don't even get a chance to play late game cards because the match is already over. What's the point of them being there if you don't get to play them. At this point I can already predict the winner of the match after the first few turns based off of who the tavern favored in the beginning.

Midnight Raid, Archer/Siege Volley, Grand Larceny, several of the crow cards, etc.

ETA: A good example is the Pelin deck. I almost never actually get to play Knight Commander, and if I do it's like for 1 turn. Why? Because Armory, Volley, etc end the game before the card is both purchased and then playable.

Dragonnord

How would you prevent that?
 

spartaxoxo

Dragonnord wrote: »

How would you prevent that?
 

I don't have a good solution so that's why I am just giving the feedback. Perhaps someone else would be able to give a good choice.

I was thinking maybe they could rebalance some of the more powerful early game cards to be midgame cards like 7/8 coins, but I also don't want the game to be too slow. I think decreasing the cost of cards like Knight Commander might just exacerbate the problem. I don't know how to go about it, but I think it's a shame there's a lot of cards that basically can't be used because the game is decided so early.

I also think it's contributing to the impression of the game being too RNG, because a lot of people recognized they have too much trouble recovering from not being favored by the early tavern. Like they see armory go to someone else early and just instantly quit. It's also not fun to have sit through a game you already know you're going to lose, with many people complaining about the penalty they can't quit more often.

I think something needs to be done, but I don't know what.

Dragonnord

I've seen the suggestion of adding one or two more cards to the tavern, so there are more options.

This way, after one player gets a good card, there is a better chance that the other player can get a good card too to even the early game.
 

spartaxoxo

Dragonnord wrote: »

I've seen the suggestion of adding one or two more cards to the tavern, so there are more options.

This way, after one player gets a good card, there is a better chance that the other player can get a good card too to even the early game.
 

I did see that idea and liked it. I also wonder if it might help if they let us always start with 1 writ of coin in place of a gold coin. This way people get to the higher coin counts faster. It might also help new players understand what a writ of coin even is. I just beat an unranked opponent that was new and kept ending their turn instead of converting their coins with the Treasury patron since they only had 5 coins.

sekou_trayvond

I dunno. While yes, there are obviously very strong cards that can be acquired early it's not a forgone result. Playing the patron game or focusing on agents, for example, can provide you with time to bounce back. I try to stay disciplined- especially if Red Eagle is in play. Keep my deck tidy and augment with purchases that fuel what I'm trying to do. Will it always work? Of course not. It is a game with a human opponent on the other side- they are trying to beat you after all.

Furthermore, all the early big gold card acquisitions can sometimes be kinda funny later. If no crows in play I've seen plenty of opponents amass double digit gold on turns, only to keep buying cards in search of the ONE TRUE CARD or whatnot and bloat their deck. This ain't pokemon- no need to collect them all.

Rooatouille

While early game cards can certainly swing the game, and if an opponent gets good RNG and is able to acquire multiple good early game cards for early pressure this can be exacerbated, but I certainly don’t think games are a foregone conclusion right from the early turns. As @sekou_trayvond said, there is a human opponent on the other side — that means that, while a solid player may press their advantage, they can also make mistakes. I’ve had plenty of games where I’ve been able to stabilize after falling behind by changing up my strategy (prioritizing certain cards based on how the game is shaping up), being able to pick up equally powerful cards myself, or simply capitalizing on mistakes made by my opponent.

I don’t disagree that certain cards need some tweaks here and there, but overall the game state seems relatively balanced at the moment. For example, the card draw Crow cards could probably all stand a +1 to their cost, and we’ve already seen CE getting some sizeable nerfs on PTS. Early game power cards could need a look as well, but I’m not sure I can comment on that reliably as the percentage of games I lose to red rush strategies is pretty small by comparison. If my opponent gets an Armory or Midnight Raid early and isn’t able to capitalize, I can usually shift to a taunt agents strategy to slow them down or outpace them with a comparable combo strategy (Hunding, Crow, or Hlaalu sacrifice perhaps).

spartaxoxo

Rooatouille wrote: »

While early game cards can certainly swing the game, and if an opponent gets good RNG and is able to acquire multiple good early game cards for early pressure this can be exacerbated, but I certainly don’t think games are a foregone conclusion right from the early turns.

Being able to predict the winner isn't the same as it being a foregone conclusion. I'm not saying it's impossible to win, I am saying that the odds are disproportionately in favor of whoever got the better cards in the early game, making it fairly simple to predict the results. I have certainly turned around games plenty of times, but it's more likely than not that the game was already decided early on. That most of the changes have centered around early game cards should demonstrate pretty easily that this is correct.

Early Game Cards (5 coins or less) changed

1) Scratch
2) Ceporah's Insight
3) Psijic Insight
4) Prescience
5) Time Mastery
6) Prowling Shadow
7) Jeering Shadow
8) Midnight Raid
9) Armory (now a mid game card)
10) Siege Volley
11) Grand Larceny
12) Conquest
13) Warrior Wave
14) Maormer Boarding Party
15) Serpent Guard Rider
16) Summerset Sacking

Mid-Late Game Cards changed (6 or more coins)

1) Hireling
2) Oathmen
3) Jarring Lullaby
4) Shadow Slumber
5) Rally
6) Currency Exchange
7) March on Hattu
8) Hira's End
9) Snakeskin Freebooter (is now an early game card on PTS)