CHANGE FATIGUE IN ESO

marius_buys

Multiple updates, weekly patches, hot fixes, stealth nerfs/buffs/changes, quarterly class/weapon/race/ability changes...

Do you suffer from change fatigue due to the constant alteration and adjustment to abilities, equipment and mechanics in the game?
I get that changes drive cash flow of irl money and keeps the game alive and interesting but isn't it just a bit too hectic, or am I missing the point?
Also I'm particularly interested in what do you do to alleviate ESO change fatigue.
Lets have a good ol community polly poll shall we?

GreatGildersleeve

Nope. U35 did me in and I no longer pay/play. Can’t have change fatigue when the changes are what drove me from the game. It’s quite freeing.

Jman100582

I like change simply because I pvp, having a change in the meta is quite nice from time to time. That being said having a meta change like 7 times a year is wayyyyyy too much. I wouldn’t mind if zos made meta combat shake ups like 2-3 times a year just for the sake of keeping combat interesting. Well as long as it’s balanced anyway

Brrrofski

Jman100582 wrote: »

I like change simply because I pvp, having a change in the meta is quite nice from time to time. That being said having a meta change like 7 times a year is wayyyyyy too much. I wouldn’t mind if zos made meta combat shake ups like 2-3 times a year just for the sake of keeping combat interesting. Well as long as it’s balanced anyway

Yeh, I agree with this.

Change does keep it fresh. But, too much of it is just hassle.

Sarannah

Don't follow the meta, newest sets, and changing skills, and you will be fine. My main is still wearing Morrowind old gear, and he hardly does less damage than my other characters. So there is no need to update him yet. (did give him a tank armory spec last week)

If you are trying to keep up with every small change, on every single character, on every single class, and also feel the need to collect transmutes to do so, you will tire yourself out very quickly. I don't do any of that, have plenty of transmutes, and my characters are all fine. Most even have two armory specs.

Some people stress themselves for no reason, and the tiniest of things will set them off(U35). In situations they themselves create for themselves.

I really miss the 2000's gaming community, when everyone who gamed was really a gamer, and when players still had patience and respect for eachother. Most players playing now are no longer interrested in the journey or having fun, they rush to the end. They are not really gamers. You can clearly see this in dungeons and everywhere else, where players just run through mobs to get to the shiny goodie at the end. And then complain there is nothing to do, or there being too little content.

To stop gaming fatique just do what you want to do, I have an entire checklist I want to go through still: Getting every character enough skillpoints to max their crafting and anything else they need, level excavation on all characters, complete the base game on all characters(all alliances + main quest), complete the important DLC's on all characters(DB, thieves guild, etc)... gonna take years, and who knows what I, or the game, comes up with in the meantime! Especially as the process is interrupted constantly with other things I want to do, like events or anything else I feel like.

PS: Your caps is on! (title)

Marto

Jman100582 wrote: »

I like change simply because I pvp, having a change in the meta is quite nice from time to time. That being said having a meta change like 7 times a year is wayyyyyy too much. I wouldn’t mind if zos made meta combat shake ups like 2-3 times a year just for the sake of keeping combat interesting. Well as long as it’s balanced anyway

There's not even 7 balance changes a year... Where do you even get that number?

There are 4 major content patches a year, and incremental patches almost never include balance changes, unless it's to tweak buggy or blatantly overpowered/underpowered sets.

There's 3 or 4 balance changes a year. Sometimes just 2, since ZOS likes to keep the chapters relatively light on balance changes, so people can get used to new systems and content.

I believe that "change fatigue" is something that the community brings onto themselves by treating each week of the PTS as a final set-in-stone change, when in reality it is just what it says. A test. ZOS probably willingly releases PTS patches that they know aren't perfect, in order to get feedback on it.

I've seen people talk about "change fatigue" in regards to Oakensoul. An item that has received ONE balance patch in all the time it's been around.

The other problem is that the endgame community's standards are so unreasonably tight and strict, that even a minor change is talked about as if it's a "game changing patch" that "forces me to re-learn my class". Yet everywhere you go, you see people running the same sets and rotations for 6-18 months. Sometimes even longer.

Troodon80

Marto wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

a meta change like 7 times a year

There's not even 7 balance changes a year...

Balance change isn't the same as a meta change. ZOS balances the game, generally, 3-4 times per year as per a balance change in each quarterly update. Unless something is bugged, in which case it might get into an incremental patch. A meta change is whatever does the best, and people work out the "best" over time. What seemed to work on PTS and day one of Live isn't what we're using now, only a couple weeks later. It's not just the target dummy you need to look at, either. Certain classes perform better in certain content, so meta, broadly, shifts depending on content as well.

For example, people were trying out Maelstrom staff on PTS in the first 2-3 weeks, but it got changed and bugged in the last couple weeks of PTS and then for a couple weeks on Live. People tried Vateshran daggers (situational), then went two-piece dual wield (Relequen/Whorl + Pillar/Aegis Caller + Mythic + Monster set, and that's without considering tank sets, healer sets, and support DD sets), and now some are settling on Blackrose daggers. Gone are the days when a meta would be worked out in the final week of PTS and people would farm the upcoming meta ahead of time. Over the last couple years, meta has taken time to trickle down as people test various sets via parsing for hours a day and then testing builds in actual content. Meta can shift dozens of times over a year depending on balance + content + potential bugs.

And all of this considers only end game PvE, not even looking at PvP (which we can also just lump in with "different content").

Marto

Troodon80 wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

a meta change like 7 times a year

There's not even 7 balance changes a year...

Balance change isn't the same as a meta change. ZOS balances the game, generally, 3-4 times per year as per a balance change in each quarterly update. Unless something is bugged, in which case it might get into an incremental patch. A meta change is whatever does the best, and people work out the "best" over time. What seemed to work on PTS and day one of Live isn't what we're using now, only a couple weeks later. It's not just the target dummy you need to look at, either. Certain classes perform better in certain content, so meta, broadly, shifts depending on content as well.

For example, people were trying out Maelstrom staff on PTS in the first 2-3 weeks, but it got changed and bugged in the last couple weeks of PTS and then for a couple weeks on Live. People tried Vateshran daggers (situational), then went two-piece dual wield (Relequen/Whorl + Pillar/Aegis Caller + Mythic + Monster set, and that's without considering tank sets, healer sets, and support DD sets), and now some are settling on Blackrose daggers. Gone are the days when a meta would be worked out in the final week of PTS and people would farm the upcoming meta ahead of time. Over the last couple years, meta has taken time to trickle down as people test various sets via parsing for hours a day and then testing builds in actual content. Meta can shift dozens of times over a year depending on balance + content + potential bugs.

And all of this considers only end game PvE, not even looking at PvP (which we can also just lump in with "different content").

At that point, we're not even talking about "change fatigue", we're talking about "theorycrafting fatigue".

People trying to squeeze every single ounce of power out of their character. Players that will throw fun out the window, and stop using a build they enjoy simply because some twitch streamer found something that deals 1-3% more damage.

That is absolutely self-inflicted.

Is that the fault of ZOS? Mosty not. Maybe indirectly, since this obsessive and self-sabotaging player behavior is the result of players trying to beat extremely difficult content.

Making HM trials, trifectas, and other difficult content considerably easier would probably be the best way to fix that problem. But then you'll have tons of complaints from endgame players, saying they're just melting everything and skipping mechanics with 100k+ DPS. So... What can you do?

LesserCircle

I do suffer from it, a few changes are always needed but I feel like they shouldn't be so big that we need to change our entire builds, gear, skills... When I finally find something that I like to use or a playstyle, I always have in my mind that it will most likely be nerfed or they might change the effects of my skills or gear. I CAN'T play how I want. They should learn from another very popular MMO with a free trial, where big changes are made very carefully.

the1andonlyskwex

Just play healers. Their meta hasn't changed significantly in years.

Snamyap

I picked "other". I don't mind changes, small balance shifts, etc. But not broad, sweeping changes to half the skills in the game. And for the love god conserve some class identity. Making every single target dot do the exact same damage with the same duration is boring and lame.

marius_buys

Sarannah wrote: »

Don't follow the meta, newest sets, and changing skills, and you will be fine. My main is still wearing Morrowind old gear, and he hardly does less damage than my other characters. So there is no need to update him yet. (did give him a tank armory spec last week)

If you are trying to keep up with every small change, on every single character, on every single class, and also feel the need to collect transmutes to do so, you will tire yourself out very quickly. I don't do any of that, have plenty of transmutes, and my characters are all fine. Most even have two armory specs.

Some people stress themselves for no reason, and the tiniest of things will set them off(U35). In situations they themselves create for themselves.

I really miss the 2000's gaming community, when everyone who gamed was really a gamer, and when players still had patience and respect for eachother. Most players playing now are no longer interrested in the journey or having fun, they rush to the end. They are not really gamers. You can clearly see this in dungeons and everywhere else, where players just run through mobs to get to the shiny goodie at the end. And then complain there is nothing to do, or there being too little content.

To stop gaming fatique just do what you want to do, I have an entire checklist I want to go through still: Getting every character enough skillpoints to max their crafting and anything else they need, level excavation on all characters, complete the base game on all characters(all alliances + main quest), complete the important DLC's on all characters(DB, thieves guild, etc)... gonna take years, and who knows what I, or the game, comes up with in the meantime! Especially as the process is interrupted constantly with other things I want to do, like events or anything else I feel like.

PS: Your caps is on! (title)

Yes I find that new type of ego driven toxic player quite intolerable and btw I was born with caps on.

marius_buys

LesserCircle wrote: »

I do suffer from it, a few changes are always needed but I feel like they shouldn't be so big that we need to change our entire builds, gear, skills... When I finally find something that I like to use or a playstyle, I always have in my mind that it will most likely be nerfed or they might change the effects of my skills or gear. I CAN'T play how I want. They should learn from another very popular MMO with a free trial, where big changes are made very carefully.

I agree, carefully with changes. I used to be involved in water polo. The rules have not changed in tens of years and the one time there was a rule change considered the olympic board sent a fact finding team to every water polo community/club in the world to find out what their opinion is if they would change the rule.

Now I'm not saying lets go to extremes but if ZOS could/would only take the red flags raised in the test server seriously there would be way less fallout. Bear in mind that game devs co-operate or work under instruction from corporate to have a new op set or op weapon in new dlc that would act as a driver to have players poney up the moolah only to nerf it after 3 or 4 months, but I honestly feel there needs to be no apple cart tipping involved.

Artim_X

Change never stop being annoying, but it does give me a reason to pop into the PTS to change some things around. If I didn't go into the PTS to know exactly what I needed to change to get back what I lost, I'd probably would have quit years ago.

Danikat

I don't, but that's because I don't do vet dungeons and trials and rarely do PvP, and on top of that I've never been interested in following the meta in any game. It's relatively rare that balance updates affect my builds enough that I need to change them and when I do make changes it's usually because I want to.

For example I'm planning to see if there's a good alternative to Biting Jabs for my templar, but that's because I never really liked that skill anyway (I don't use it in my fun open-world build) and use it because I know it's expected for a DPS templar, so if there's something else which is equally good now that might be an improvement for me (even if that's because jabs was nerfed).

Troodon80

Marto wrote: »

That is absolutely self-inflicted.

Any sort of change in an MMO is "self-inflicted." That's not even a point to debate since no one is forced to play the game, let alone grind a new meta or participate in the hardest content. Change fatigue is still change fatigue regardless of what spin you want to put on it. The easiest solution, obviously, is to stop chasing the meta, or take a break and play a different game, come back later, etc. But there's no point trying to redefine what individual change fatigue is.

JanTanhide

Yep. Too many radical yo yo changes drove me out of ESO. U35 was the final straw. Have fun everyone!

ForumBully

I get 'Bad Change' fatigue...

N00BxV1

Since I usually just tank these days there aren't a whole lot of changes that affect me personally. But I do get fatigued because of how the changes affect other players that I encounter in random groups.

BoraxFlux

Not suffering from change fatigue yet. I've had some disappointments in the past, to get over that I find alternatives, so I've changed my play-style a few times. Also love those players that find and share solutions I didn't know existed, meta and non-meta alike.

RebornV3x

I have fatigue its the reason I don't try and farm for sets anymore or do DLC dungeons cause by the time I get all the gear and gold it out, relearn my rotation I have maybe two months until that gear is useless for a game that is 7 years old we shouldn't be having these massive skill changes every 3 months maybe a percent or 2 here and there at this point I think the combat dev team is straight incompetent and needs to be fired there is no plan I wish at this point they would just stop with these balance changes and make them once a year.

To the combat team I get it you have to do this in order to generate sales make all the gear useless and now people have to go farm and buy eso plus ect but for some it has a negative effect I just don't care anymore
this line of thinking just doesn't make sense

if people played the game more because there happy with there build and have some time with it won't they be more inclined to buy from the crown store if you have these massive quitting epidemics every 3 months doesn't that hurt the bottom line?

shadyjane62

I would suffer more, bit I stopped doing anything different at No Proc change. I ignored everything after that. I am still all magplar, I do not have any mythics nor do I chase them. AWA was anathema to me.

Hybridization is a mystery to me.

I am a Templar, now untouchable and am waiting out end of sub.

One bright note is that since jabs was ruined I have found Radiant Opression and for first time instead on being support and healer I am the one who avenges in pvp.

Agenericname

In one if Rich's tweets he boasts that hes finally able to break 100k after some changes. I find it a rather misleading comment, since the buffs to the dummy changed, but regardless, "after some changes" was the key phrase.

I take that to mean that if we want to salvage our DPS numbers, we need to change our builds. Maybe its a small change, maybe its not, but its a change none-the-less. I think that asking us to change our builds and rotations potentially up to every 3 months in a game where many already struggle is a bit much.

whitecrow

I guess I am too "casual" to even notice the changes (unless they are graphical). But I do wonder why constant adjustment is necessary. Isn't anything tested before release, and then again on the PTS?

rpa

Casual and I don't pvp. Change which is a disaster to some people often only makes things slightly more tedious for me. Of course a "rework" may make some things unusable for me too. Then I do not use that. Too bad.

FluffyReachWitch

I have one character that I take into veteran content, which is my main. My main is built around destructive power with a touch of survival, and the crit-stacking gear I used to wear into trials still suits them well.

The rest of my characters are there for roleplay, and they wear sets that fit their fighting style and lore. These are sets I can generally find in the overland or just craft myself.

As a result, I don’t often find myself forced to replace my gear during update cycles. I still have to replace my skills once in a while, but it usually doesn’t take long to find something decent to swap in.

If I were in proc PvP or a veteran progression trials group, I’d probably be more frustrated.

Giraffon

I'm currently taking a time out from this game. I appreciate changes that improve things or add content, but when they screw with my build that I've worked so hard on. That gets old fast.

MageCatF4F

Giraffon wrote: »

I'm currently taking a time out from this game. I appreciate changes that improve things or add content, but when they screw with my build that I've worked so hard on. That gets old fast.

That covers it for me - except the family and I still play the game. We just don't pay for ESO Plus anymore. We had two ESO plus accounts, now down to zero. There's some change for you.

If these "devs" figure out that they shouldn't be jerking us back and forth every 3 months on combat and start acting somewhat human we may re-up.

VaranisArano

Change fatigue hit me pretty hard around Elsweyr, and I just stopped. I'm pretty sure I haven't changed my gear since. I stopped making alts. I stopped chasing anything that was adding to my burn out.

Yes, it makes me less effective at group content and PVP.

But it also means I don't waste my time and effort changing my builds according to the Dev's whims every three months.

It also means that I completely avoid the cycle by which ZOS releases a powerful new mythic, players spend hours doing gameplay they don't enjoy to get it, and then ZOS nerfs it 3 months later.

ESO is an MMO. There's always new players coming in to replace veterans who are getting burned out for various reasons. So change fatigue really isn't a problem for the Devs, so much as it is a part of the MMO lifecycle.

Timorelle

... I'm not gonna lie, when I first read the title I thought you were asking them to change the fatigue system ("fatigue" being what it's called in WoW if you stray too far out to sea; it's a bar that slowly drains and if you're still in the area when the bar is fully depleted you die). And my knee-jerk reaction was "Oh yes, I agree, please change it; I have thalassophobia and I am ever so tired of feeling triggered being eaten by slaughterfish!"

But...... obviously that's not what you were going for, so I'll show myself out. *slinks away*

Heartrage

I think it’s great that we get new content 4 times a year, but i would rather they limit the base combat changes to once or twice a year with more time to tune it.