Prevent Boss Skipping

Rampeal

Would it be possible to put up walls in certain areas or make it to where certain bosses do not spawn unless you kill the previous boss? Because skipping bosses have been a toxic thing in this game. I have seen numerous times people doing quest ask others to slow down, stop, or kill side bosses for Achievements only for them to be ignored, yelled at, or voted to be removed from group.

It just makes the whole dungeon experience bad. I know I can not prevent people from being rude and toxic by trying to rush everyones experience for instant gratification. But it would be nice to hinder their ability to ruin the experience for others.

Thank you.

FeedbackOnly

Invisible walls are poor design. I think the better idea is to prevent skipping ads by dying method.

VictorDragonslayer

If three people farm the dungeon and one wishes to read and chill, that person slows down the party, so kick is only logical. In a matter of conflicting interests there are no right or wrong people, only winners and losers.

Instead of inventing punishments, accept 2 simple things:
1) Your opinion in a random group is only 1/4 of entire group;
2) When you are in minority, either do what is decided by the majority or seek another group.

MJ202

Create two queues. One for "fast and furious" play style, the other for "lore and explore" play style. Select the one you prefer to hopefully be on a team with other like-minded individuals.

Of course this will open the door to a new complaint, that there aren't enough players queing for the style they prefer and they have to wait to long.

kargen27

I like the idea that you don't get credit for the dungeon if everything doesn't die. That also means the fodder you run into along the way.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Yet another instance of the abuse of the word "toxic".....

Hämähäkki

VictorDragonslayer wrote: »

If three people farm the dungeon....

..they don't need to queue for a fourth person. They can probably farm the dungeon all by them self just fine, otherwise they would wait for the fourth player.

Just my two cents

DestroyerPewnack

You can't force random players to play the game the way you want, so you decided to ask the devs to intervene in your favor?

[SNIP] community-rules (Trolling/Baiting/Bashing)

Roztlin45

I agree with op, if you want to half donkey the dungeon then find a half donkey group. You que to run it so run it, that means the entire thing. Don't lag around either just go at a normal pace is.that so hard? Gees..

Elendir2am

Would be side bosses, side boss, if you had to kill them to finish dungeon?

WinterHeart626

This. Is. Why. You. Don’t. Pug!
If the group you’re with while pugging runs at a pace to collect the quest, cool. If not, too bad, try again. If you don’t like it, put a shout out. Ask for volunteers, you’d be surprised how many players will X up for a run if it’s organised and not a pug…..
It’s as simple as typing “looking for players to group for daily- insert required roles- p.s I need the quest.

You will find others who may also need said quest, or willing to help obtain said quest.
The only time players WONT slow down is in Vet. Speed run achievements are always nice to have (I got two tonight courtesy of 3 awesome players, sadly we lost on the no deaths but thems the dice).

Noisivid

I'm not digging the idea of invisible walls. ZOS could set it up so that to get the full rewards in transmutes and XP all the bosses have to be killed, this would incentivise players to not skip everything. Have each boss in a dungeon drop a few transmutes? Rushers will still rush though.
There was a good thread on Story mode dungeons a few days ago.
There's probably not much to be done with regards to the conflicting interests between farmers and questers though. That's always going to exist & no matter what the devs do somebody is going to be unhappy.


I will say that I run into far more players just rushing through and skipping bosses and mobs than questers that want to go through all the dialogue.

Story mode dungeons would also solve this problem.

Hämähäkki

Besides skipping bosses, one problem here is the movement speed of some players.
If you have a new toon you are simply not capable in keeping up. They run so fast and have so much dps that they kill the boss before you get there. Happend to me two days ago with a CP 2600+ player.

markulrich1966

you will enjoy doing all bosses exactly once. When you repeat the dungeon, e.g. for the random daily or transmutes, you will be glad if you can skip them.

Eric_Prince

To be honest, not once in my entire life I've seen people yelling, kicking and other if someone told them right at the start of the dungeon that they have quest in a polite way. Something like "Howdy folks, I have a quest here, so can we please kill optional boss?".

The only not-so-good experience I had was in the Banished Cells, because I had to listen all the kinlord monologues until I had a chance to speak with NPCs. Of course, my teammates rushed forward, but I still managed to complete everything.

So, the only thing you need to do is be polite and say everything right away in at least decent English. Well, sometimes guar puddle happens. But it's a rare thing if you don't provoke it by slowly reading every dialogue or being silent and thinking that everyone will know what you want.

You can always use your fingers to type something like 'Sorry guys, I can't keep up. Please don't rush'.

Ragged_Claw

But then what about when I solo FG during the events? And who wants to do the 'optional' bosses every single time they run the dungeon? I only run alone or with a friend or two so this idea would force us into having to do every single side boss in every single dungeon, every time - and some of those dungeons are loooong. Also think about when you are trying to get your speed run and no death achievements, some of those would be impossible if you had to stop for everything.

I understand your frustration and on the rare occasions I pug I don't mind waiting for questers or doing optional bosses etc, but I get that many players wont. However, what you are suggesting would punish people like me who just run in alone or with a mate and whip through the dailies for crystals, whereas you could try getting your own group together, joining a guild etc.

Jazraena

I don't think it's that outlandish to design dungeons in a way to ensure that all players queueing for the dungeon are aligned in goals.

It's not about asking devs to intervene on someone's behalf, it's about not creating a situation where 'Finish as fast as possible', 'Do the pledge' or 'Do the dungeon quest' lead to different action in the first place.

bmnoble

I don't like Invisible walls, I just wish they made the dungeons, in such a way that you would have to come across the various bosses on your way to the end.

Secret bosses are one thing but all the regular bosses that are just off to the side in some room somewhere, that you have to ask group members to specifically take a detour to go and kill them for quests or achievements or even just the extra set loot drops when farming sets that slightly annoy me at times.

The whole point of dungeon bosses to me is for them to be an obstacle to reaching the final boss and clearing the dungeon, too many of them are not even on the main route to the final boss and naturally people just skip them to get the fastest run they can of the dungeon.

What is even the point of running a dungeon if your not going to kill the bosses within it? if people are just running them for the transmute stones, maybe its time they had a look at improving the rewards from bosses in general.

Maybe take the 10 transmute stone away from the end of doing your first daily random and instead divide them up among the bosses loot, for example say a dungeon has 5 bosses, for each boss you kill and loot you get 2 transmute stones, kill all 5 you get your 10 transmute stones, skip two of them to rush to the final boss you only get 6 all up.

Elsonso

Rampeal wrote: »

Would it be possible to put up walls in certain areas or make it to where certain bosses do not spawn unless you kill the previous boss? Because skipping bosses have been a toxic thing in this game. I have seen numerous times people doing quest ask others to slow down, stop, or kill side bosses for Achievements only for them to be ignored, yelled at, or voted to be removed from group.

It just makes the whole dungeon experience bad. I know I can not prevent people from being rude and toxic by trying to rush everyones experience for instant gratification. But it would be nice to hinder their ability to ruin the experience for others.

Thank you.

It is a basic flaw in the dungeon design. If you watch long enough, it is clear that what they want is a single room dungeon where the boss is across the room from the player entrance. The boss needs to drop epic loot and XP to qualify as a boss. To save time and enhance the collection of loot and XP, the boss should respawn immediately until the players leave.

More on topic... I always disliked getting a PUG for FG, since it was a dice roll whether the lead speed runner would take the shortcut without letting anyone know. If they did, it was fun to watch the rest of the people if they failed to make that left turn. Personally, I would put slaughterfish in the water there just to watch people have to run back from the start.

Hämähäkki wrote: »

Besides skipping bosses, one problem here is the movement speed of some players.
If you have a new toon you are simply not capable in keeping up. They run so fast and have so much dps that they kill the boss before you get there. Happend to me two days ago with a CP 2600+ player.

I have seen that, as well. At one point I advocated for a change in how the tier 1 dungeons were handled so that new players would not get a bad first experience in an ESO dungeon. It was a wasted effort.

Ragnarok0130

OP if you’re achievement hunting just ask the group not to skip the bosses when you first start. I did this many times before AWA and never had a group say no.

Four_Fingers

Put a token or fragment on each and every boss with the final piece on the final boss for the monster set or other main reward. That way you have to do all bosses for your monster helm or what ever.

Soarora

I disagree with making older dungeons have no skips (the newer ones seem to not have any). If people ask for optional bosses or that they’re on a quest I’ve never seen someone be told no or ignored. Even then, I stall around optional boss entrances and see if anyone runs for it and if they do I follow them. If possible, runners tend to turn around and come do the optional boss. Even if that doesn’t happen I can run ahead and pull and depending on the boss the runners may get yoinked back so the player who wants the boss can get the boss.

Amottica

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Invisible walls are poor design. I think the better idea is to prevent skipping ads by dying method.

I agree that such walls are a poor design outside of when it makes sense with the dungeon's design. Besides, it offers another point for a bug to occur that prevents the completion of the dungeon. We all know that in any MMORPG that is a very big possibility.

Make adds meaningful so that we will die just trying to skip them. Change it so when a group wipes to adds, they are put back at the last boss cleared so they will still have to deal with the adds.

jle30303

Fungal Grotto of course is particularly egregious because of the fact that you can deliberately jump down the waterfall and up to the final boss area, missing several huge areas of the "proper" way to do the dungeon, following the land bridges around.

This is because all the jumps back up are on the far side of the river, not the near side. If they were on the near side, you'd have to take the land route around. But then, the jumps back up to the land were designed for people who were clumsy enough to fall off the broken bridges by accident, not people who deliberately jumped down the waterfall without ever engaging any dreugh at all.

To be honest, it would still be possible to miss Broodbirther and Clatterclaw, even by taking the land route, simply because they're set far enough back that it is possible to run past them (and the same is true in FG2 of Ciirenas the Shepherd, who stands in the same place as Broodbirther.)

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Wayrest Sewers (1 and 2) has the optional boss set off in the side room to the northwest - The Rat Whisperer (1) or Skull Reaper (2). And an eidetic-memory lorebook, of course, plus the fact that the side boss still has to be killed for a Speed or No Death run... I've seen speedsters barrel past it, go all the way to the end and then realise they fouled up and missed the speed achievement only after killing Allene Pellingare.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Elden Hollow also has the ability to jump right off the path and, if you survive the fall, miss the whole tunnel that contains Chokethorn (EH1) or Azara the Frightener (EH2). At least, Chokethorn is necessary for the EH1 pledge (and the dungeon's quest), whereas Azara isn't necessary for anything.

Also in EH1, it is possible to miss Leafseether the Alit by simply taking the northern rather than eastern corridor out of the penultimate chamber, and it's even possible to miss BOTH the gro-Mal Orcs by never aggroing them (although given where Nenesh stands, it's not easy to miss BOTH him and Leafseether) - although Akash, the earlier one, is necessary for the pledge. The Ancient Spriggan, of course, is in a side chamber that nobody has to visit. It has been known that people rush to the end of EH1 and the only boss they kill is the final one, and then they wonder why they have to go back and re-do it for Akash and Chokethorn for the pledge...

Darkshade Caverns 1, of course, has the Cutting Sphere, which is set so far back off the route that you have to turn right rather than left to actually aggro it OR its companion adds. It's easily skippable... but, for newbies completing the dungeon quest, it's directly on the route back FROM the Sentinel of Rkugamz to the final person you have to speak to, and the Cutting Sphere has a habit of ambushing and killing newbies on that route once the veterans have quit the dungeon.

It's also possible to skip the Hive Lord in DC1, but at least he is necessary for the pledge and the quest. However, Head Shepherd Neloren can also be missed since he's down a little side corridor, though it's easy to aggro him by accident anyway - he is like Big Rabbu in Spindleclutch 1 in this respect, it's possible to run past him.

In DC2, the Transmuted Alit Trio stand where DC1's Hive Lord is, and unlike the Hive Lord, the Alits eminently skippable unless you're trying for a speed or no-death completion.

I have seen people race past the Flesh Atronach Trio in Spindleclutch 2 and be out of aggro range before they could stand up.

The Desert Lions are pretty missable in Volenfell.

I believe there's at least one missable sideboss in part of City of Ash 1 (the southern part, I think - Golor the Banekin Handler if you race past him on the way to the Warden of the Shrine: however, chances are you'll aggro him on the way past, and thus have to deal with him.)

Drodda's Apprentice in Direfrost Keep is very much missable if you don't actively turn right after going up the big stairs. I have even known people to miss Iceheart, though the latter is needed for the quest and the pledge.

endgamesmug

I spent so many years grinding up new characters with zombies that i feel like its a waste running past ads, i enjoy line of sighting and nuking them down.As for base game dungeons well ive been running them since 2015, so youre basically on autopilot running and going through the motions because you know it off by heart. If someone looks like they need to stop or they say something at the beginning, ill have no problem pausing for them.

DigiAngel

VictorDragonslayer wrote: »

If three people farm the dungeon and one wishes to read and chill, that person slows down the party, so kick is only logical. In a matter of conflicting interests there are no right or wrong people, only winners and losers.

Instead of inventing punishments, accept 2 simple things:
1) Your opinion in a random group is only 1/4 of entire group;
2) When you are in minority, either do what is decided by the majority or seek another group.

This. Read the room...if it's a rush, rush. If you're questing, then put that in group chat...as soon as I know someone's questing I adjust and make sure they finish.

nickg420

The key is to not expect any other players to play how you want them to or to be mind readers. If you let the group know up front you need the quest, I have literally never seen anyone say "Tough [snip]..." and keep melting mobs without that person. It's never been a big deal that I have seen. Otherwise, especially in a Normal, the default expectation is that people are just there to grab the daily XP and Transmutes as quick as possible to move on to the next daily thing.

The same goes for people farming certain sets. Let the group know upfront and most are happy to trade you whatever. Hell sometimes I'll even give it away if it's something I may be currently looking for. I'll just run it again. Not a big deal.

I've seen so many misunderstandings in this game from people just not speaking up or not simply acknowledging "Hey I've never ran this so I don't know the mechanics..." "Hey I need the quest..." or "Hey looking for X_Inferno staff" which would have let the group know from the start what to expect. Most of the time what happens is we all watch someone "stand in stupid" and die 20 times while just ignoring anything and everything screaming "Where's the heals guys?" which is just not a good look...And usually does not get the results you may be looking for.

To be clear that this is not what this OP is speaking about specifically, but I think is still in the same vein...

TLDR - Just speak up before the run starts and you're most likely to not have any issues with whatever it is you need from a dungeon...Quest, items, or learn the mechanics.

[Edited for Censor Bypass]

AvalonRanger

Rampeal wrote: »

Would it be possible to put up walls in certain areas or make it to where certain bosses do not spawn unless you kill the previous boss? Because skipping bosses have been a toxic thing in this game. I have seen numerous times people doing quest ask others to slow down, stop, or kill side bosses for Achievements only for them to be ignored, yelled at, or voted to be removed from group.

It just makes the whole dungeon experience bad. I know I can not prevent people from being rude and toxic by trying to rush everyones experience for instant gratification. But it would be nice to hinder their ability to ruin the experience for others.

Thank you.

Just scatter jewelry and weapon drop for every boss.
Or add extra big experience point or gold will be good.
Simply increase reward, then it will be meaningful activity
for all of people. Just do it ZOS.

However, in normal random team running. (not Veteran mode)

New dungeon, especially Earthen Root Enclave secret boss is extremely long run.
Most of DLC dungeon has very long contents, if people don't skip extra.
Especially for the "decent tank player", carrying teammate for all contents is huge fatigue.
DPS must understand tank's feeling. (I've been repeating some specific dungeon as tank
role more than 80 times each for gear farming. It's a disgusting job. And 90% people
have same feeling like me. )

If people do dungeon with completely random team, you don't have any of authority to force
every contents against other mate. You must ask about your pledge or purpose against other mate, or
just do it with your friendly guild mate. Or, don't use grouping tools. That's the good manner.

SPR_of_HA_community

They will just kick you.

If all the group run forward it is premade group of 3. They can not go with not a full group, so you are +1 for them.

May be some speed runners would walk alone or in group of 2, if they have such option.

I think that they may be are more interested in transmut stones for random dunguan than in anything else.

If they can go with out others, for more drop - they would may be be happy too.

So solution you ask for - just will not help, but can become problem for a lot of other players.

Solution you talk about do exist in some games and did not bring anything good to them.

AvalonRanger

Rampeal wrote: »

Would it be possible to put up walls in certain areas or make it to where certain bosses do not spawn unless you kill the previous boss? Because skipping bosses have been a toxic thing in this game. I have seen numerous times people doing quest ask others to slow down, stop, or kill side bosses for Achievements only for them to be ignored, yelled at, or voted to be removed from group.

It just makes the whole dungeon experience bad. I know I can not prevent people from being rude and toxic by trying to rush everyones experience for instant gratification. But it would be nice to hinder their ability to ruin the experience for others.

Thank you.

Note this:

Most of DLC dungeon have 3 main boss and can't skip it. And secret boss is separated from main road mostly.
If you want to do secret boss, then ask about it at the start point of dungeon. If tank accept it, you have chance to do it.
But some secret needs 3 member to unlock the entrance ( (ex) pressure switch). You must let the other 2 player accept it,
otherwise you can't do it. But, most of normal running doesn't need to play secret contents. Because, main boss is not
so lethal even without secret buff, if your tank is not fake.

FeedbackOnly

Amottica wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Invisible walls are poor design. I think the better idea is to prevent skipping ads by dying method.

I agree that such walls are a poor design outside of when it makes sense with the dungeon's design. Besides, it offers another point for a bug to occur that prevents the completion of the dungeon. We all know that in any MMORPG that is a very big possibility.

Make adds meaningful so that we will die just trying to skip them. Change it so when a group wipes to adds, they are put back at the last boss cleared so they will still have to deal with the adds.

That would make sense