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Combat quality of life is the true accessibility / how to raise the floor/lower the ceiling
BahometZ
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I wholly approve the aim of raising the floor, but deplore the methods that u35 has enacted. The issue as laid out by Zenimax is they want to reign in the top groups in order to balance content so that more of it is accessible to the rest of the player base. This is reasonable. It's hard to build a dungeon that will be challenging to the 1% and still manageable by the 99%. [I am choosing to ignore the argument that there's no point in even factoring in what the 1% does when balancing a game (there will always be outliers), in order to move forward.]
There are several factors that make an endgame raid team able to do what it does. Knowledge, organisation, sets.
- Players that know the content, know their class, know how to react to mechanics, where to stand to optimise cleave and survivability, recognise danger and opportunity.
- An organised raid team will have optimised team composition, top dps class/race, all applicable passives, set teams dropping ultimates in order, at the right time, will communicate and coordinate.
- Everyone in the group will have fully golded out optimised combinations of sets to bring the most damage possible.
You can't code knowledge into the game, that's on the players. People talk about introducting a tutorial, but how could a company that advertises play how you want dictate to players which sets to wear, what skills to use, and then update this every patch? Also the current tutorial teaches people how to bash, and yet every day I see players ignoring the obvious cues on when to bash. The simplest damn mechanic doesn't get learned and you want the devs to put the effort into making a tutorial that players will ignore.
Players again need to be willing to engage fully to what is required to achieve the level of organisation to complete endgame content. Devs can't force players to engage. They could provide greater rewards for engaging in endgame content. Current rewards are immensely weak, body markings and mounts that are significantly worse than those that can be bought. Goofy titles like Hurricane Herald and Swashbuckler Supreme that sound on par with overland achievements. Account wide achievements removed a lot of motivation for many players to step back into the challenging content once they've achieved it, what do you get for doing Godslayer again? And then again? A warm feeling?
Sets. Zenimax have total control over sets, and patch after patch after patch they have introduced more and more powerful sets that knowledgeable players have leapt on and used to full advantage. Elemental Catalyst, Martial Knowlege, Zens, Alkosh, Nazaray, Turning Tide, Roaring Opportunist, Saxhleel Champion, Bahsei, Coral, Powerful Assault, Pillager, etc, etc, etc. Some of these have challenging uptime that only top tier teams capitalise on. Some of them have even been buffed over the years to bring even more damage. All of these in certain combinations create insane damage spikes that are almost necessary at the moment for the latest trial perfectas.
You know if they wanted to they could—instead of nerfing individual player damage, which affects literally everyone, even the kid doing 12k dps—nerf some of these sets, or make them easier to use so that top teams are doing what they're doing but everyone else is lifted up. Reduce Martial Knowledge to 5% damage done, but increase uptime, reduce elemental catalyst to 10% but make it only two of three elements required at a time. Just a couple examples to open up sets to easier use but lower output overall. Make Powerful Assault and Roaring Opportunist affect 12 people, which will reduce the challenge of moderate groups maintaining these buffs. Making buff sets easier to use will increase accessibility.
Some of these changes can reduce the ceiling, but more importantly that dude who is progging Vateshran Spirit Slayer is still in a good position to do so, he hasn't had all his damage nerfed, the people stalled at Extinguisher of Flames aren't dealing with all of their individual dps being nerfed, and getting set back. Because nerfing light attacks and pushing player damage back down is not it. Making every one weaker on their own isn't.
And extending dots because you don't want people to stare at their timers... well can i tell you, that if you practice the game you don't even have to look at the timers, you can develop muscle memory. Now that some of us have been playing for several years with certain timers implicitly known we now have to learn longer dot uptimes, if people struggle with a 10 second timer, 20 seconds isn't any easier. [Tell me you don't play the game, without telling me you don't play the game.]
Another way of improving accessibility: smoother combat.
I see two constant complaints about combat from players of all walks of life in this game.
Cast times and quick cast ground aoes are a nuisance that should be cast into the pit. They turn players away from using certain skills, and make combat a chore.
Some of these skills are kind of necessary to do top dps, so endgame raiders will persist and overcome, but it honestly never stops being a nuisance. Being necro and having to time your roto so that you leave enough time for graveyard to cast, or fire rune (or blast bones to work it's *** out for that matter, but that's a different thing)... it never feels good. Stonefist having a cast time makes it a gateway skill, if you have a tank/dps who can manage it, you have more damage for the group.
When cast times were added to ultimates in PvP people hated it, people still hate it but we cope, like every other nuisance change the devs introduce. There is an argument that it introduces a dynamic of skill to PvP, but cast times is one tiny element of skilled combat in PvP. I imagine people will push back against this because they've adapted well to it, but then those same people will adapt to no cast times.
If you want to improve accessibility and bridge the skill gap, make every skill instant cast, smooth rotations all round. This would've far less messy than what u35 tried to do. You do that, then rebalance the cast time skills as necessary (for example, templar jesus beam could be a toggle that drains mag, jabs could be one single conal sweep (they've already changed the animation once). The quick cast ground aoes don't need any balancing, they just need to work as intended. Remove the option in the menu, and code them so they act like nightblade path, or wall of elements. There's a reason nightblade rotations are smooth as better and it's because they have no cast time abilities or quick cast ground aoes.
If we're going to make fundamental changes to combat mechanics, may as well actually make ones that improve combat quality of life. Will some of these changes make the game easier? Probably, but current meta this new patch looks like stalemates in PvP and proc sets doing damage for you in PvE, so how much skill is needed?
There are several factors that make an endgame raid team able to do what it does. Knowledge, organisation, sets.
- Players that know the content, know their class, know how to react to mechanics, where to stand to optimise cleave and survivability, recognise danger and opportunity.
- An organised raid team will have optimised team composition, top dps class/race, all applicable passives, set teams dropping ultimates in order, at the right time, will communicate and coordinate.
- Everyone in the group will have fully golded out optimised combinations of sets to bring the most damage possible.
You can't code knowledge into the game, that's on the players. People talk about introducting a tutorial, but how could a company that advertises play how you want dictate to players which sets to wear, what skills to use, and then update this every patch? Also the current tutorial teaches people how to bash, and yet every day I see players ignoring the obvious cues on when to bash. The simplest damn mechanic doesn't get learned and you want the devs to put the effort into making a tutorial that players will ignore.
Players again need to be willing to engage fully to what is required to achieve the level of organisation to complete endgame content. Devs can't force players to engage. They could provide greater rewards for engaging in endgame content. Current rewards are immensely weak, body markings and mounts that are significantly worse than those that can be bought. Goofy titles like Hurricane Herald and Swashbuckler Supreme that sound on par with overland achievements. Account wide achievements removed a lot of motivation for many players to step back into the challenging content once they've achieved it, what do you get for doing Godslayer again? And then again? A warm feeling?
Sets. Zenimax have total control over sets, and patch after patch after patch they have introduced more and more powerful sets that knowledgeable players have leapt on and used to full advantage. Elemental Catalyst, Martial Knowlege, Zens, Alkosh, Nazaray, Turning Tide, Roaring Opportunist, Saxhleel Champion, Bahsei, Coral, Powerful Assault, Pillager, etc, etc, etc. Some of these have challenging uptime that only top tier teams capitalise on. Some of them have even been buffed over the years to bring even more damage. All of these in certain combinations create insane damage spikes that are almost necessary at the moment for the latest trial perfectas.
You know if they wanted to they could—instead of nerfing individual player damage, which affects literally everyone, even the kid doing 12k dps—nerf some of these sets, or make them easier to use so that top teams are doing what they're doing but everyone else is lifted up. Reduce Martial Knowledge to 5% damage done, but increase uptime, reduce elemental catalyst to 10% but make it only two of three elements required at a time. Just a couple examples to open up sets to easier use but lower output overall. Make Powerful Assault and Roaring Opportunist affect 12 people, which will reduce the challenge of moderate groups maintaining these buffs. Making buff sets easier to use will increase accessibility.
Some of these changes can reduce the ceiling, but more importantly that dude who is progging Vateshran Spirit Slayer is still in a good position to do so, he hasn't had all his damage nerfed, the people stalled at Extinguisher of Flames aren't dealing with all of their individual dps being nerfed, and getting set back. Because nerfing light attacks and pushing player damage back down is not it. Making every one weaker on their own isn't.
And extending dots because you don't want people to stare at their timers... well can i tell you, that if you practice the game you don't even have to look at the timers, you can develop muscle memory. Now that some of us have been playing for several years with certain timers implicitly known we now have to learn longer dot uptimes, if people struggle with a 10 second timer, 20 seconds isn't any easier. [Tell me you don't play the game, without telling me you don't play the game.]
Another way of improving accessibility: smoother combat.
I see two constant complaints about combat from players of all walks of life in this game.
Cast times and quick cast ground aoes are a nuisance that should be cast into the pit. They turn players away from using certain skills, and make combat a chore.
Some of these skills are kind of necessary to do top dps, so endgame raiders will persist and overcome, but it honestly never stops being a nuisance. Being necro and having to time your roto so that you leave enough time for graveyard to cast, or fire rune (or blast bones to work it's *** out for that matter, but that's a different thing)... it never feels good. Stonefist having a cast time makes it a gateway skill, if you have a tank/dps who can manage it, you have more damage for the group.
When cast times were added to ultimates in PvP people hated it, people still hate it but we cope, like every other nuisance change the devs introduce. There is an argument that it introduces a dynamic of skill to PvP, but cast times is one tiny element of skilled combat in PvP. I imagine people will push back against this because they've adapted well to it, but then those same people will adapt to no cast times.
If you want to improve accessibility and bridge the skill gap, make every skill instant cast, smooth rotations all round. This would've far less messy than what u35 tried to do. You do that, then rebalance the cast time skills as necessary (for example, templar jesus beam could be a toggle that drains mag, jabs could be one single conal sweep (they've already changed the animation once). The quick cast ground aoes don't need any balancing, they just need to work as intended. Remove the option in the menu, and code them so they act like nightblade path, or wall of elements. There's a reason nightblade rotations are smooth as better and it's because they have no cast time abilities or quick cast ground aoes.
If we're going to make fundamental changes to combat mechanics, may as well actually make ones that improve combat quality of life. Will some of these changes make the game easier? Probably, but current meta this new patch looks like stalemates in PvP and proc sets doing damage for you in PvE, so how much skill is needed?
Pact Magplar - Max CP (NA XB)
13
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SPR_of_HA_community✭✭✭✭It is only my opinion:
A lot of players just want to play their favorite class/build or weapon.
Some of them already take old not top sets and hope it will not be changed and that they will not need change gear each update.
But for some reason they get nerfs each update. Whyle players with more DPS in some META builds do not really get nerfs.
Instead of buffing old sets developer nerfs it and remake game mechanick each patch. So some weapons are overperforming and all use them. The same time some weapons, as example lightning staffs get more and more nefrs, but already have worst DPS parametrs.Edited by SPR_of_HA_community on August 31, 2022 8:52AM1 -
stevenyaub16_ESO✭✭✭✭They added oakensoul. They improved HA builds (for some). The lengthened dots.
They could lower APM now is to make light attacks automatic after each skill use, which will never happen.
So the only thing I can think of is they introduce a new set that benefits from NOT using a light attack e.g. Get +5% damage bonus when you use 2 skills consecutively stacking 4 times.0 -
SPR_of_HA_community✭✭✭✭stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »They added oakensoul. They improved HA builds (for some). The lengthened dots.
They could lower APM now is to make light attacks automatic after each skill use, which will never happen.
So the only thing I can think of is they introduce a new set that benefits from NOT using a light attack e.g. Get +5% damage bonus when you use 2 skills consecutively stacking 4 times.
HA builds damage drop down. They did not really improved it. On buffed dummy DPS drop. It is even less than it was last patches. Out good parsers could do about 95-100k.
Now its values drop below 95k on overbuffed dummy.
Yes we are grateful, that other weapons users can do HA more effective. But for current HA builds on lightning staffs this patch was just one more nerf of our DPS.
We are happy, that players in META sets can do effective HA damage too on different weapons, but for HA lightning staff builds - nothing really become better.Edited by SPR_of_HA_community on August 31, 2022 11:23AM0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don’t get the “the lengthening dots to help casuals” part. Yeah the dot does not have to be cast as much, but each “dot” does about half the damage it used to do.
Isn’t that just a 50%(ish) damage nerf to dots? How is that a help?8 -
SPR_of_HA_community✭✭✭✭I don’t get the “the lengthening dots to help casuals” part. Yeah the dot does not have to be cast as much, but each “dot” does about half the damage it used to do.
Isn’t that just a 50%(ish) damage nerf to dots? How is that a help?
It do not really help, including the fact that skills now have all different call down.
But may be idea was - that it will be simpler for players put 9 dots in 20 seconds than in 10 seconds, and all they need to do spam spammable all other time.
But with such different timers on skill like 4/5/10/14/15/18/20/24/35 seconds just as an example on DK - it just do not work !!!
At least some skills like weapon ground AOEs that proc glyphs need to be the same duration as dots - like 20 and 24 seconds.
And dots with 20 second length with some buff efect needs to have this buff lenth the same as longest dot -24/25 seconds.
And class buffs need to be the same time as Class dot*some natural number.Edited by SPR_of_HA_community on August 31, 2022 3:44PM0 -
AinSoph✭✭✭✭✭If they truly wanted accessibility, they would make oakensoul's function a part of the in-game settings like a toggle and not an item you need to grind for, like there's literally an accessibility category in the settings but it doesn't even tell you what it does.0 -
SPR_of_HA_community✭✭✭✭If they truly wanted accessibility, they would make oakensoul's function a part of the in-game settings like a toggle and not an item you need to grind for, like there's literally an accessibility category in the settings but it doesn't even tell you what it does.
It was a lot of options they really can do if accessibility was really a goal.
Starting from buffing old sets with bad stats, buffing more simple builds, adding damage to players who do not do LA. (And add damage to builds who spam it like wervolfs).
Doing part of dots longer and part the same as before - makes rotation harder.
The same time, some sets now are buged and do not work.
Adding more damage to HA was good idea. But PVE only ? ... .
The same time removing HA damage from players who already play HA builds and giving HA damage to players who are not interested in it ... was strange choise.
If HA builds was not nerfed again, with good HA damage on other weapons may be some HA players start to use it too.
But with such change - why we need to think that it will not get nerfs next patch again ? We do not trust to developer already, so it is no point to do new builds if they will just get the same - nerfs next patch again.
(And we get nerfs this patch again - we get nerfs for last 3 years, so it is not just worried on empty space situation.)
Whyle game is not stable - it is no reason do new builds or anything. And game looks like pre-alpha state now.Edited by SPR_of_HA_community on August 31, 2022 4:28PM0 -
heaven13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Have to agree regarding buff sets. Buffing their conditions for use while tweaking (not murdering) the output would help the mid tier players. I know healers that really struggled with Roaring and it was a chore to try to get them to use it (which usually didn’t happen). Mid-tier groups progging vCR+0 didn’t have people bothering with martial knowledge and only started using Zens once it could go on a dk dps. Dps that don’t bother getting Siroria or Relequen because they can’t use it (or do get it and don’t understand why they’re not suddenly parsing closer to the top in content).
Should sets/buffs be a one-button-and-it-just-works thing? No. Playing skillfully SHOULD be rewarded. But lowering the barrier to using some of these best sets helps everyone. Adjusting their output down can also adjust the “obscene numbers” tippy top end if necessary.
No one wants their progress reset. No one wants to feel like the last patch was a waste of time. For those that care about it, we want to continue getting better and making progress on harder content. And, most importantly, we want to keep having fun.
PC/NAMountain God | Leave No Bone Unbroken | Apex Predator | Pure Lunacy | Depths Defier | No Rest for the Wicked | In Defiance of DeathMeet my characters :
Defanged the Devourer | Nature's Wrath | Relentless Raider | True Genius | Bane of Thorns | Subterranean Smasher | Ardent Bibliophile
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vDSA | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+2 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA | vRGIT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL THE SAME NOW, THANKS ZOS0 -
SPR_of_HA_community✭✭✭✭Have to agree regarding buff sets. Buffing their conditions for use while tweaking (not murdering) the output would help the mid tier players. I know healers that really struggled with Roaring and it was a chore to try to get them to use it (which usually didn’t happen). Mid-tier groups progging vCR+0 didn’t have people bothering with martial knowledge and only started using Zens once it could go on a dk dps. Dps that don’t bother getting Siroria or Relequen because they can’t use it (or do get it and don’t understand why they’re not suddenly parsing closer to the top in content).
Should sets/buffs be a one-button-and-it-just-works thing? No. Playing skillfully SHOULD be rewarded. But lowering the barrier to using some of these best sets helps everyone. Adjusting their output down can also adjust the “obscene numbers” tippy top end if necessary.
No one wants their progress reset. No one wants to feel like the last patch was a waste of time. For those that care about it, we want to continue getting better and making progress on harder content. And, most importantly, we want to keep having fun.
Me and some players do not like buff sets, and if it would be other options to pass content by not only overbuffing stats - it would be greate.
If not reward skill full play - skilled players will not play such game.
Just look on really skilled players - a lot of them leave long ago.
Skilled play must be rewarded. All old MMO do that, and a lot of players love them for that. You can solo boss and take all loot yourself. Here the same boss have seporated loot for each party member and you will not get more if you solo it.
It is no logick in first place, because boss need to have same amount of thingth in it
But skilled game can be not to nesesary to pass content. It is ok with it.
You can become better in different directions. Some players want to pass with smaller amount or do thingth solo/with same skilled players.
You can not force exp player do some thing he do not want. So TESO will be only casual game soon. And some players will sell pay runs. But you do not really need play some thing to sell pay runs - it is like work for such players.0