Why did the U35 hit non-high-end players?

Parasaurolophus

This patch was supposed to make eso's combat system more accessible to the new player, but something went wrong. From all the reviews, I see that mid and low skill players complain the most. This is confirmed by the fact that many people write that their 60-65k dps on the atronach dropped a lot, which is far from a high-end value for a pro player.
In 4 days, I managed to complete quite a few dungeons, including new ones, both on hard mode and just vet. And I can say with complete certainty that nothing has changed. The numbers are smaller, but the time to kill the bosses is the same as before. Here it is worth saying that I collect parties only from among my friends. I also hear feedback from them that almost nothing has changed in the trials. However, recent trials such as vRG and vDSR on hard mode have significant healing issues. But I think it should be fixed. In general, a small loss of dps did not become a disaster and is almost not noticeable.
And quite the opposite I see here on the forum. It is very strange. Something went wrong? Maybe low skill players have low APM and therefore their damage relied more on dot`s? Or what?

Ragnarok0130

@Parasaurolophus that's because one can't nerf the top end without nerfing everything below it using the method ZoS did and that is why I personally don't think accessibility was ever a true goal of U35 after seeing the end result of the patch or they would have actually ensured the game was more accessible as a top priority.

Player: What's the purpose of U35?
Sheogorath as a dev: It is for accessibility!
Player: Sounds great!
Sheogorath as a dev: But the update actually makes everything LESS accessible! Isn't that a hoot Haskill? Cheese for everyone!
Player: What?
Sheogorath as a dev: Well I didn't say the goal was to make it MORE accessible Mortal.

To reign in damage of the top end ZoS could have simply put a damage cap much like they did with the crit damage cap a while back, or adjusted set bonuses, and then adjusted the hardest content like Rockgrove and Dread Sail Reef to compensate. They could have ensured that more than two HOTs couldn't stack from radiating regeneration, but instead they went in with a sledgehammer again after saying they wouldn't do it again making an overall worse experience for the general player base and the top end.

Parasaurolophus

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

@Parasaurolophus that's because one can't nerf the top end without nerfing everything below it using the method ZoS did and that is why I personally don't think accessibility was ever a true goal of U35 after seeing the end result of the patch or they would have actually ensured the game was more accessible as a top priority.

Player: What's the purpose of U35?
Sheogorath as a dev: It is for accessibility!
Player: Sounds great!
Sheogorath as a dev: But the update actually makes everything LESS accessible! Isn't that a hoot Haskill? Cheese for everyone!

To reign in damage of the top end ZoS could have simply put a damage cap much like they did with the crit damage cap a while back, or adjusted set bonuses, and then adjusted the hardest content like Rockgrove and Dread Sail Reef to compensate. They could have ensured that more than two HOTs couldn't stack from radiating regeneration, but instead they went in with a sledgehammer again after saying they wouldn't do it again making an overall worse experience for the general player base and the top end.

That's just the point, it looks very strange. Because like ZoS did everything right:
1) Lowskill players can't weave? Ok, let's reduce the effect of weaving on dps.
2) Lowskill players can't keep uptime dots and effects? Let's reduce the damage from pillboxes and increase the time.
It turns out that spam direct damage gets the greatest impact on dps. The simplest thing that could be. This was all just to increase damage for lowskill players.

GloatingSwine

It hit everyone because the vector for reducing high end damage was reducing the damage of each individual player.

But you can't do that without reducing the damgage of non-high-end players as well, because everyone is using the same tools, some players are just using them more effectively due to additional practice and supporting gear.

Especially when they decided to hit weapon attacks "because weaving", when the low end players are getting a lot more actual damage directly from their light attacks not from set effects that happen to trigger on them. (and didn't affect weaving because as long as it does any damage at all it represents a damage increase over not doing it so herp and also derp)

Parasaurolophus

GloatingSwine wrote: »

It hit everyone because the vector for reducing high end damage was reducing the damage of each individual player.

But you can't do that without reducing the damgage of non-high-end players as well, because everyone is using the same tools, some players are just using them more effectively due to additional practice and supporting gear.

Especially when they decided to hit weapon attacks "because weaving", when the low end players are getting a lot more actual damage directly from their light attacks not from set effects that happen to trigger on them. (and didn't affect weaving because as long as it does any damage at all it represents a damage increase over not doing it so herp and also derp)

But it has always been believed that most players cannot learn to weave, which means that light attacks are not important for them.

Ragnarok0130

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

@Parasaurolophus that's because one can't nerf the top end without nerfing everything below it using the method ZoS did and that is why I personally don't think accessibility was ever a true goal of U35 after seeing the end result of the patch or they would have actually ensured the game was more accessible as a top priority.

Player: What's the purpose of U35?
Sheogorath as a dev: It is for accessibility!
Player: Sounds great!
Sheogorath as a dev: But the update actually makes everything LESS accessible! Isn't that a hoot Haskill? Cheese for everyone!

To reign in damage of the top end ZoS could have simply put a damage cap much like they did with the crit damage cap a while back, or adjusted set bonuses, and then adjusted the hardest content like Rockgrove and Dread Sail Reef to compensate. They could have ensured that more than two HOTs couldn't stack from radiating regeneration, but instead they went in with a sledgehammer again after saying they wouldn't do it again making an overall worse experience for the general player base and the top end.

That's just the point, it looks very strange. Because like ZoS did everything right:
1) Lowskill players can't weave? Ok, let's reduce the effect of weaving on dps.
2) Lowskill players can't keep uptime dots and effects? Let's reduce the damage from pillboxes and increase the time.
It turns out that spam direct damage gets the greatest impact on dps. The simplest thing that could be. This was all just to increase damage for lowskill players.

Except they really did the opposite. ZoS made weaving more important in a rotation to compensate for the DPS loss not more optional. ZoS made dots longer but also weaker so players lost DPS on dots too compred to U34. If ZoS extended DOTS and kept them the same strength that would have helped newer or lower skilled players but ZoS is still working against their own goals.

Ragnarok0130

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

It hit everyone because the vector for reducing high end damage was reducing the damage of each individual player.

But you can't do that without reducing the damgage of non-high-end players as well, because everyone is using the same tools, some players are just using them more effectively due to additional practice and supporting gear.

Especially when they decided to hit weapon attacks "because weaving", when the low end players are getting a lot more actual damage directly from their light attacks not from set effects that happen to trigger on them. (and didn't affect weaving because as long as it does any damage at all it represents a damage increase over not doing it so herp and also derp)

But it has always been believed that most players cannot learn to weave, which means that light attacks are not important for them.

New players use light attacks a lot more than they should when I run RNDs so light attack changes hurt the very audience ZoS claimed they want to help much more than anyone elsse. Also the only reason newer players can't weave is because ZoS doesn't tell them about it because let's be honest here ESO's tutorial is bare bones and unhelpful compared to other games. ESO tutorial needs to explains all systems both systems intended like what weapon/armor weight/stats you should use for your chosen role and unintended things that are important like weaving that ZoS actively embraced over the past 8 years. What we currently have is a total abdication of responsibility by ZoS to properly train new and let's be honest many existing players. Instead one has to go to youtube or to a website like Alcast's or ESOU to learn systems if you want to actually play and understand the game.

Holycannoli

Because you can't increase accessibility by nerfing DPS.

There's also debate on what they mean by "accessibility". Is it accessibility to the game's content (dungeons, vet content etc.), accessibility to the combat system (rotations, bar swapping, DoT timing etc.) or a combination of the two? No matter the answer, it can't be done by nerfing DPS, plain and simple.

VaranisArano

ZOS' attempts to quash the high end of damage have always hit lower-damage players and especially progression players worse.

In this case, its due to a couple of reasons:

1. ZOS nerfed Light Attack damage without nerfing the necessity to weave perfectly for maximum damage.

(A player who does not weave or weaves imperfectly is still doing less damage than a player who weaves well. Moreover, ZOS did not nerf DPS sets like Relequen, which depend on Light Attack weaving properly. I'll get into this in Point #2, but when the DPS requirements dropped less than the DPS did, ekeing out every bit of DPS actually becomes more important, not less. Ironically, they lowered the damage but increased the importance of weaving properly which does the opposite of supporting players who don't weave well.)

2. ZOS did not adjust PVE content appropriately to match the drop in DPS. We've seen them adjust content with respect to specific pain points before when they nerfed individual encounters in dungeons and trials to improve accessibility. That's not what happened in U35 where everything from Vet Fungal Grotto to Vet Rockgrove got the same flat nerf.

(The original intent seems to have been that players would wait for U36 for content adjustments, as we see with Vet Arenas now. The 10% health nerf for bosses and bannerman didn't get a lot of testing, but the players who did gave feedback that it didn't address the real pain points for progression teams in those encounters. And when progression teams were already stretching themselves to the limit of their U34 DPS and healing to clear encounters, anyone who lost more than 10% of their DPS due to U35's nerfs was bound to struggle. If you already had more than enough DPS and healing to complete encounters, you might not notice much difference. If you were pushing the upper limit of what you could do like most progression groups, you would see a bigger difference.)

3. It's the first week of a new patch and most players haven't adjusted to the meta yet. Many are comparing the same build under U34 to U35 and predictably seeing a DPS drop as ZOS intended.

(I suspect most of the dedicated trial players knew what was coming, but most random dungeon players are probably still using their old gear and old rotations. The initial drop in player DPS is thus going to be sharpest in the group of players who didn't prepare new builds ahead of time, i.e. low to mid DPS players. Things will settle down as the players who remain in ESO start looking up new builds and rotations. However, whether or not those new builds will allow players who were already pushing themselves to get into Vet content to continue pushing remains to be seen. It also doesn't answer the question of whether or not those new builds are fun.)


In short, progression groups who follow the meta as best they can got caught up in ZOS' attempts to nerf damage and healing. They were pushing the limit of what they could do, and the PVE content was not adjusted appropriately to keep it accessible for them even though they've adapted for U35. Hopefully ZOS will continue to adjust content based on Live feedback, but they sure didn't hit the mark this patch. Result: content became less accessible.

Meanwhile, low-mid players who didn't prepare for U35's meta are feeling the intended loss of power in their U34 builds and rotations right now. They might make up some of that gap as they adjust...just keep in mind that every adjustment from a build they liked means experiencing change fatigue. Result: DPS loss for anyone who hasn't adjusted yet, doesn't want to adjust because its not fun, or who can't adjust, in the case of players who use specific builds due to physical/internet problems.

And finally, while ZOS succeeded in reducing the damage of Light Attacks, because of the other DPS nerfs, the failure to adjust Light Attack DPS sets, and the failure to rebalance PVE content for progression pain points, they actually made the remaining damage from LA weaving more important. That is compounded by the simple fact that players who don't weave properly are more likely to be in the low-mid tier when it comes to DPS anyways. Those players lost ground towards the DPS requirements they were barely reaching in the first place due to other nerfs and needing to adjust to the new meta AND they can't make up the gap with weaving or LA spam.

boi_anachronism_

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

This patch was supposed to make eso's combat system more accessible to the new player, but something went wrong. From all the reviews, I see that mid and low skill players complain the most. This is confirmed by the fact that many people write that their 60-65k dps on the atronach dropped a lot, which is far from a high-end value for a pro player.
In 4 days, I managed to complete quite a few dungeons, including new ones, both on hard mode and just vet. And I can say with complete certainty that nothing has changed. The numbers are smaller, but the time to kill the bosses is the same as before. Here it is worth saying that I collect parties only from among my friends. I also hear feedback from them that almost nothing has changed in the trials. However, recent trials such as vRG and vDSR on hard mode have significant healing issues. But I think it should be fixed. In general, a small loss of dps did not become a disaster and is almost not noticeable.
And quite the opposite I see here on the forum. It is very strange. Something went wrong? Maybe low skill players have low APM and therefore their damage relied more on dot`s? Or what?

How can the numbers be smaller but time to kill the same?

tmbrinks

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

In 4 days, I managed to complete quite a few dungeons, including new ones, both on hard mode and just vet. And I can say with complete certainty that nothing has changed. The numbers are smaller, but the time to kill the bosses is the same as before. Here it is worth saying that I collect parties only from among my friends. I also hear feedback from them that almost nothing has changed in the trials.

Here's the counterpoint. vMA took me 4 minutes longer to complete post-patch than pre-patch, run within a week of one another. vVH took 3 minutes longer. A group where 3/4 of us have the vSWR trifecta had struggles to clear the first boss on HM due to the sizable changes in AoE damage. The groups that have the vDSR trifecta are struggling to clear the trial.

To say "with complete certainty that nothing has changed" is a flat out false statement. A SINGLE counterpoint is all that is needed to disprove, and there have been hundreds, if not thousands, provided.

GloatingSwine

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

GloatingSwine wrote: »

It hit everyone because the vector for reducing high end damage was reducing the damage of each individual player.

But you can't do that without reducing the damgage of non-high-end players as well, because everyone is using the same tools, some players are just using them more effectively due to additional practice and supporting gear.

Especially when they decided to hit weapon attacks "because weaving", when the low end players are getting a lot more actual damage directly from their light attacks not from set effects that happen to trigger on them. (and didn't affect weaving because as long as it does any damage at all it represents a damage increase over not doing it so herp and also derp)

But it has always been believed that most players cannot learn to weave, which means that light attacks are not important for them.

Yeah, but people in the lower ranges of DPS are going to be getting more of their damage from weapon attacks. Either because they're still playing the way the tutorial told them to and just using LAs with occasional skills now and then, or because they've not got their sustain sorted out and they have to use lights and heavies whilst they recover resources.

Parasaurolophus

@VaranisArano Well, you opened my eyes.

sbr32

Because ZoS misunderstands, or chooses not to acknowledge, where the power creep is actually coming from.

It's the widespread availability of powerful group utility buffs that is causing most of the creep. These buffs largely come from overpowered support sets that are added to the game to help sell new DLC.

In return ZoS chooses to nerf the individual players. This hurts people that don't have those buffs as available and doesn't hurt those that still do as much.

With some thought the could have done some interesting things to either reduce the availability of things like Powerful Assault, Major Force, Major Slayer Major Courage, Brittle to the top end groups or made them.more accessible to lower tier groups. Instead they hit everyone over the head with a shovel.

They nerfed the players' button presses but did nothing to change the multiplicative set bonuses that were making top end damage "obscene".

GloatingSwine

[quote="sbr32;c-7700295"
With some thought the could have done some interesting things to either reduce the availability of things like Powerful Assault, Major Force, Major Slayer Major Courage, Brittle to the top end groups or made them.more accessible to lower tier groups. Instead they hit everyone over the head with a shovel.
[/quote]

The reason those things aren't "accessible" to lower tier groups is that they're annoying to sustain, not that they're hard to get in the first place. They increased timers in the wrong place.

sbr32

GloatingSwine wrote: »

[quote="sbr32;c-7700295"
With some thought the could have done some interesting things to either reduce the availability of things like Powerful Assault, Major Force, Major Slayer Major Courage, Brittle to the top end groups or made them.more accessible to lower tier groups. Instead they hit everyone over the head with a shovel.

The reason those things aren't "accessible" to lower tier groups is that they're annoying to sustain, not that they're hard to get in the first place. They increased timers in the wrong place.[/quote]

Whether I agree or not, I'm not sure what this has to do with the question OP asked.

VaranisArano

sbr32 wrote: »

Because ZoS misunderstands, or chooses not to acknowledge, where the power creep is actually coming from.

It's the widespread availability of powerful group utility buffs that is causing most of the creep. These buffs largely come from overpowered support sets that are added to the game to help sell new DLC.

In return ZoS chooses to nerf the individual players. This hurts people that don't have those buffs as available and doesn't hurt those that still do as much.

With some thought the could have done some interesting things to either reduce the availability of things like Powerful Assault, Major Force, Major Slayer Major Courage, Brittle to the top end groups or made them.more accessible to lower tier groups. Instead they hit everyone over the head with a shovel.

They nerfed the players' button presses but did nothing to change the multiplicative set bonuses that were making top end damage "obscene".

Incidentally, this is one of the reasons why ZOS consistently fails to nerf Ball Groups.

Support sets with powerful buffs are only available to organized groups who can run specialized builds and who can stick together close enough to benefit. I could run my Meritorious Service set as a PUG healer, but my random teammates did not stay close enough to get the benefit, unlike my guildmates.

The result is that in addition to the advantages of voice comms, stacked healing, and targeted damage that a Ball Group or PVP guild raid has, they also have set buffs that (practically apeaking) PUGs don't because PUGs either can't afford to wear those support sets or don't stay close enough to get the benefit of them.

But as you say, gotta have those new powerful group sets to sell DLC.

DizzyMac

meanwhile PVP has been destroyed by it and now zergs & ball groups are necessary because you cant out damage the ability to self heal

GloatingSwine

TBH I think the powerful group buff sets are actually a good thing for an MMO.

Like when you look at a top end DPS player and at least 50% of what he's doing is from teamwork because they don't provide the enabling effects for it themselves, in an MMO game, that's an absolute win.

It produces synergy on the holy trinity that goes beyond "tank gets punched and healer makes sure bars are full".

But then I was never convinced that nerfing top group DPS was ever a good idea in the first place.

Agenericname

GloatingSwine wrote: »

TBH I think the powerful group buff sets are actually a good thing for an MMO.

Like when you look at a top end DPS player and at least 50% of what he's doing is from teamwork because they don't provide the enabling effects for it themselves, in an MMO game, that's an absolute win.

It produces synergy on the holy trinity that goes beyond "tank gets punched and healer makes sure bars are full".

But then I was never convinced that nerfing top group DPS was ever a good idea in the first place.

They absolutely are a good thing, but are they balanced? Id argue that in some cases, they are not.

When you look at the changes that were made and the relevance of those sets and their contribution to the power creep its pretty easy to see. Solo arenas for example. Their bosses havent been nerfed while the individual players DPS was, and it was the target. Its still an "across the board nerf" but not fairly applied.

Playing well as a team should be impactful and it should be rewarding, but that value just increased.

Id guess the reason that the OP sees so little change is two-fold. They are playing with friends, likely a group that is more optimized than most. And the content specified, dungeons, even the vet DLC amd vet DLC HMs, have a lower threshold for damage and coordination than most people realize. We dont need 100k to complete them, or to get achievements. It simply makes it easier because the fewer walls we see in FL HM the safer the HM will be. We have been overpowered for a while now and even with the loss an optimized group still has enough.

That said, the loss in damage is noticable and quantifiable to anyone using CMX or logs. Time to kill has gone up. Whether or not thats critical is a different issue. For my groups, in dungeons, it is not. That doesnt make it a universal truth though.

Theres so much variation in solo, overland, and normal content that you have to expect to hear drastically varying effects from the patch.

The top end doing HM on the latest trials have a lot less variation in their skills and builds than the bottom does and their voice is a lot more unified.

markulrich1966

some complained, others reported minimal to no decrease in gameplay (low to mid range players).

Complaints started right at the day of the update.

Conclusion: those complaining did not even took the time to adjust their builds. Armor/skills/cp.
It is not even expensive to do it, as for running some tests with different gear you can use purple quality instead of golden.

I currently have the impression, that ther is a mass-hysteria. Some vocal people complain, throw in some numbers, frighten less experienced players who are too inexperienced to see the context.

Then they feel even confirmed running a first dungeon with their old build, and the hysteria spreads.

To be clear: I don't like such changes. Was pretty pissed when sorcerers lost crystal blast and crit chance. Still, it encouraged me to try out other classes, and try out different things with my sorcerer, so it became viable again.

What I miss completely in these hysterya threads:
recommendations how to improve.
People should post what gear and cp they use on their class, if they suddenly feel weak.
This would enable more experienced players to help them finding alternatives, that can compensate for the loss. Several players obviously use such combinations already, so the impact of the patch is so small for those.