Attacking the players instead of adjusting content.

LordRukia

Why not fix the content, instead of "fixing" the players? Even blizzard is capable of nerfing/buffing pve encounters instead of destroying your class to achieve the same outcome, the problem here is you've affected not just instanced content but ALL content which includes every single player. Adverse effects like animation changes to go along with your fixes are overwhelmingly perceived as a negative.

I give it a month tops before we see another round of massive changes, or let the game continue to bleed. Either way ZoS you've already lost your players trust and I'm sure you will see this financially on your next report.

Continued annoyance at these pathetic attempts at balance has clearly culminated in massive frustrations from the community. STOP doing pointless changes that nobody asked for.

Ignoring the community has consequences as you'll learn soon enough. I suspect FF14 is about to have another huge bump in player count, after all it seems to be the MMO everyone jumps to when their favorite goes into the toilet. If you're wondering why, its because they stick to their winning recipe and stay in their lane.. people like consistency not constant resistance and change.

Anyway, here's to shadowlands2.0

FeedbackOnly

Yes it's not about the damage but content is less fun and engaging now.

Enundr

but....that would make sense? we dont do that here! much less listen to people! Side note i heavily expect them to lock/delete threads and comments at this point to do some "crowd control" as ive seen them doing since the update.

Edit: Typo on threads being turned into threats , corrected it so it what i was trying to type XD

merpins

ZoS needs to learn the difference between Balance and Fun. Don't take away the players' fun for the sake of balance. Just how that works.

deleted221205-002626

merpins wrote: »

ZoS needs to learn the difference between Balance and Fun. Don't take away the players' fun for the sake of balance. Just how that works.

by fun you mean god mode?

merpins

sinnereso wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

ZoS needs to learn the difference between Balance and Fun. Don't take away the players' fun for the sake of balance. Just how that works.

by fun you mean god mode?

If end-game content gets harder, then it only effects end-game players. They lowered the floor more than the ceiling with this update. Also, if you mean god mode for pvp, then my answer is simple; balance pve and pvp separately.

Enundr

merpins wrote: »

sinnereso wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

ZoS needs to learn the difference between Balance and Fun. Don't take away the players' fun for the sake of balance. Just how that works.

by fun you mean god mode?

If end-game content gets harder, then it only effects end-game players. They lowered the floor more than the ceiling with this update. Also, if you mean god mode for pvp, then my answer is simple; balance pve and pvp separately.

aye there are complete differences in those balances , pve balancing is aimed at dealing with mobs that have higher health / hit harder (ie need high enough dmg and healing ) , im amazed Guild Wars did that well for so dam long and it has never started as a Sub based game , of course theyve changed devs since then so that team isnt as stable in the seperation of the 2 now as well XD (for GW2). but suffice to say they proved you can keep the 2 seperately balanced easily enough.

mocap

well, according to Update 35 potato nachos, they:

Reduced the health of all bosses in Veteran difficulty.

don't know exact numbers/percentages

Drammanoth

As if they wanted us not to have fun.

PLAY AND SUFFER - i.e. look at the loot table. If you take a gear from rack, it is always BELOW 160 CP Shadowhide / Nightwood / Voidcloth, but worthless, unless stolen.

Then there is Rich Lambert - "Don't like it, don't play it." And what if we stop playing in droves?

SeaGtGruff

You do you. I'm not going to stop playing it. As far as I've been able to see during the first day of this patch, my fun hasn't gone down at all.

If I hadn't been reading this forum for the last several weeks, or watching streamers who were going on and on about U35, and had simply logged in Monday and started playing like I normally do, I don't think I'd even know that things had changed on Monday, since my gameplay feels the same as it did on Sunday before the patch. Soloing world bosses, soloing dungeons, soloing resources in Cyrodiil-- so far, those all feel just like they did before the patch.

In contrast, some of the previous patches immediately had very noticeable impacts on my gameplay. So I'm grateful that this one hasn't been like those were in that respect.

Note, I'm talking purely about my own gameplay experiences, and am not trying to make any claims about anyone else's gameplay experiences.

barney2525

Oh, I noticed the change immediately. It's kinda the reverse of what some players wanted. Instead of making Overland more difficult they made Characters weaker. I think its going to make soloing a dolman much more difficult. I'm experimenting, making a new character to develop from the ground up tog et a good feel for the extent of the effect of these changes.

FeedbackOnly

sinnereso wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

ZoS needs to learn the difference between Balance and Fun. Don't take away the players' fun for the sake of balance. Just how that works.

by fun you mean god mode?

It's engagement during some fights that has gone severely down.

Elendir2am

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

You do you. I'm not going to stop playing it. As far as I've been able to see during the first day of this patch, my fun hasn't gone down at all.

If I hadn't been reading this forum for the last several weeks, or watching streamers who were going on and on about U35, and had simply logged in Monday and started playing like I normally do, I don't think I'd even know that things had changed on Monday, since my gameplay feels the same as it did on Sunday before the patch. Soloing world bosses, soloing dungeons, soloing resources in Cyrodiil-- so far, those all feel just like they did before the patch.

In contrast, some of the previous patches immediately had very noticeable impacts on my gameplay. So I'm grateful that this one hasn't been like those were in that respect.

Note, I'm talking purely about my own gameplay experiences, and am not trying to make any claims about anyone else's gameplay experiences.

Perception is influenced with your power and difficulty of content. I made 2 random dungeon runs in monday. I killed everything with bouth, my DK and my Necro as fast as before.
Yet normal dungeons was deep under my skill level for long time now. So some nerfing has low impact on my playing there.

Situation will be probably different, when I will take my Sorc on raid in veteran trial and switch on some HM.
Oh, what I am kidding myself. I will use Sorc only for collecting hirelings materials for next 3 month.
But I will take some my char, I have to decide which one, and I will go on raid some vet HM and then I will se what influences U35 had on me.

So, you should take into account that some players played more casually and the reduction of their power hit them in lower difficulties already.

FeedbackOnly

Elendir2am wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

You do you. I'm not going to stop playing it. As far as I've been able to see during the first day of this patch, my fun hasn't gone down at all.

If I hadn't been reading this forum for the last several weeks, or watching streamers who were going on and on about U35, and had simply logged in Monday and started playing like I normally do, I don't think I'd even know that things had changed on Monday, since my gameplay feels the same as it did on Sunday before the patch. Soloing world bosses, soloing dungeons, soloing resources in Cyrodiil-- so far, those all feel just like they did before the patch.

In contrast, some of the previous patches immediately had very noticeable impacts on my gameplay. So I'm grateful that this one hasn't been like those were in that respect.

Note, I'm talking purely about my own gameplay experiences, and am not trying to make any claims about anyone else's gameplay experiences.

Perception is influenced with your power and difficulty of content. I made 2 random dungeon runs in monday. I killed everything with bouth, my DK and my Necro as fast as before.
Yet normal dungeons was deep under my skill level for long time now. So some nerfing has low impact on my playing there.

Situation will be probably different, when I will take my Sorc on raid in veteran trial and switch on some HM.
Oh, what I am kidding myself. I will use Sorc only for collecting hirelings materials for next 3 month.
But I will take some my char, I have to decide which one, and I will go on raid some vet HM and then I will se what influences U35 had on me.

So, you should take into account that some players played more casually and the reduction of their power hit them in lower difficulties already.

Yes and a lot of complaining after trying it now. There's a problem with some gameplay experiences for us

Coatmagic

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

You do you. I'm not going to stop playing it. As far as I've been able to see during the first day of this patch, my fun hasn't gone down at all.

If I hadn't been reading this forum for the last several weeks, or watching streamers who were going on and on about U35, and had simply logged in Monday and started playing like I normally do, I don't think I'd even know that things had changed on Monday, since my gameplay feels the same as it did on Sunday before the patch. Soloing world bosses, soloing dungeons, soloing resources in Cyrodiil-- so far, those all feel just like they did before the patch.

In contrast, some of the previous patches immediately had very noticeable impacts on my gameplay. So I'm grateful that this one hasn't been like those were in that respect.

Note, I'm talking purely about my own gameplay experiences, and am not trying to make any claims about anyone else's gameplay experiences.

+1 but unfortunately my husband is an end game prog achiev hound so I can't ignore it and feel like a jerk for saying that it's not changed my game at all (but it hasn't *shrug*).
Don't want to see people leaving as they are; lost all my peeps shortly after launch and most never returned.
Husband wouldn't have had I not pestered him to come help me with things (and there was no other game taking up interest then) but as soon as there is, so many more will go, smh.

Not sure what they are going for, but feel maybe the game is going to end up *Chasing Rainbows*
ie, just us happy folk roaming the world and decorating our houses...
whatever pays the bills, I guess...?

Ragnarok0130

Enundr wrote: »

but....that would make sense? we dont do that here! much less listen to people! Side note i heavily expect them to lock/delete threads and comments at this point to do some "crowd control" as ive seen them doing since the update.

Edit: Typo on threads being turned into threats , corrected it so it what i was trying to type XD

Yeah I expect a plethora of [snip]/bashing/non-constructive/locks edits are about to affect a large number of threads that are really just feedback

Rust_in_Peace

LordRukia wrote: »

Why not fix the content, instead of "fixing" the players? Even blizzard is capable of nerfing/buffing pve encounters instead of destroying your class to achieve the same outcome, the problem here is you've affected not just instanced content but ALL content which includes every single player. Adverse effects like animation changes to go along with your fixes are overwhelmingly perceived as a negative.

I give it a month tops before we see another round of massive changes, or let the game continue to bleed. Either way ZoS you've already lost your players trust and I'm sure you will see this financially on your next report.

Continued annoyance at these pathetic attempts at balance has clearly culminated in massive frustrations from the community. STOP doing pointless changes that nobody asked for.

Ignoring the community has consequences as you'll learn soon enough. I suspect FF14 is about to have another huge bump in player count, after all it seems to be the MMO everyone jumps to when their favorite goes into the toilet. If you're wondering why, its because they stick to their winning recipe and stay in their lane.. people like consistency not constant resistance and change.

Anyway, here's to shadowlands2.0

I watched the Wow debacle happen in real time with covenants and not listening to player feedback. Zos is doing the exact same thing with their changes. Blizzard has recently shown some signs of making changes for the better and listening to player feedback on the PTR; especially with the new talent trees. You'd think a company in the same market would take note of what happens when your players lose faith because the writing is on the wall here - ESO is in serious trouble.

MEBengalsFan2001

LordRukia wrote: »

Why not fix the content, instead of "fixing" the players? Even blizzard is capable of nerfing/buffing pve encounters instead of destroying your class to achieve the same outcome, the problem here is you've affected not just instanced content but ALL content which includes every single player. Adverse effects like animation changes to go along with your fixes are overwhelmingly perceived as a negative.

I give it a month tops before we see another round of massive changes, or let the game continue to bleed. Either way ZoS you've already lost your players trust and I'm sure you will see this financially on your next report.

Continued annoyance at these pathetic attempts at balance has clearly culminated in massive frustrations from the community. STOP doing pointless changes that nobody asked for.

Ignoring the community has consequences as you'll learn soon enough. I suspect FF14 is about to have another huge bump in player count, after all it seems to be the MMO everyone jumps to when their favorite goes into the toilet. If you're wondering why, its because they stick to their winning recipe and stay in their lane.. people like consistency not constant resistance and change.

Anyway, here's to shadowlands2.0

Other games do massive overall changes to how the game combat flows and every time I see this type of change the combat slows down and it takes way more out of the player to kill a simple add vs what it took previously. These changes are minor and will require some adjustments.

Imagine playing a game where you were getting buffed and enemies were being debuff by your non dps classes and they also gave you resources back and basically helped remove any cool down you had. A well built team in this other game could complete older dungeons in under 10 minutes and newer dungeons in about 15-20 minutes and trials in about 20-30 minutes. Game update comes along and removes basically all group buffs and debuff to enemies and reduce your overall damage without adjusting enemies. Now the old dungeons takes 30+ minutes and newer dungeons you can’t complete most of the time even with doing mechanics. It takes 2-3 modules because with out stronger gear you can’t beat content.

I rather see minor adjustments that improve the game overall. I would hate to see all the buffs and debuff removed and keeping the content difficultly right where it is currently at today.

shadyjane62

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Enundr wrote: »

but....that would make sense? we dont do that here! much less listen to people! Side note i heavily expect them to lock/delete threads and comments at this point to do some "crowd control" as ive seen them doing since the update.

Edit: Typo on threads being turned into threats , corrected it so it what i was trying to type XD

Yeah I expect a plethora of [snip]/bashing/non-constructive/locks edits are about to affect a large number of threads that are really just feedback

That will be ineffective in the long run if like me, people don't confine their thoughts to this forum. Am in two new games and when the people I am with ask where I've been I am glad to share what I think about the game without fear of being snipped.

FeedbackOnly

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

LordRukia wrote: »

Why not fix the content, instead of "fixing" the players? Even blizzard is capable of nerfing/buffing pve encounters instead of destroying your class to achieve the same outcome, the problem here is you've affected not just instanced content but ALL content which includes every single player. Adverse effects like animation changes to go along with your fixes are overwhelmingly perceived as a negative.

I give it a month tops before we see another round of massive changes, or let the game continue to bleed. Either way ZoS you've already lost your players trust and I'm sure you will see this financially on your next report.

Continued annoyance at these pathetic attempts at balance has clearly culminated in massive frustrations from the community. STOP doing pointless changes that nobody asked for.

Ignoring the community has consequences as you'll learn soon enough. I suspect FF14 is about to have another huge bump in player count, after all it seems to be the MMO everyone jumps to when their favorite goes into the toilet. If you're wondering why, its because they stick to their winning recipe and stay in their lane.. people like consistency not constant resistance and change.

Anyway, here's to shadowlands2.0

I watched the Wow debacle happen in real time with covenants and not listening to player feedback. Zos is doing the exact same thing with their changes. Blizzard has recently shown some signs of making changes for the better and listening to player feedback on the PTR; especially with the new talent trees. You'd think a company in the same market would take note of what happens when your players lose faith because the writing is on the wall here - ESO is in serious trouble.

Yes people need to understand for many of us the engagement level of ESO and fun factor lowered.

Realize some of us are upset for a reason after trying content

AcadianPaladin

Agree with above posts and I share the frustration. Who knew my elf's 25k dps was such threat to the 'ceiling' that it had to be lowered to below 20k? Last week I could solo a geyser in Summerset. This morning I gave up after getting killed twice. Geysers now join the long list of things in ESO I have to simply ignore now. To put a finer point on it, my 'accessability' to challenging content has been significantly decreased by this update. Whereas I might have flirted with the idea of pugging a vet dungeon before, that prospect is gone and I am progressing backwards.

Yes, I am a pve soloist but so are about 1/3 of the game's players. ESO has always been solo friendly. If it becomes not solo friendly, I'll be gone.

Drammanoth

You know, I'm wondering what is ZOS' reaction to this... Is it:

1) 'Nah, people always complain, some come, some leave, throwing temper tantrums. This is the law of business.'

2) 'Perhaps we've gone too far with our liberty...'

https://steamcharts.com/app/306130

Considering the number of STEAM players, it may be 1) - unless I'm reading it wrong =|

francesinhalover

Enundr wrote: »

but....that would make sense? we dont do that here! much less listen to people! Side note i heavily expect them to lock/delete threads and comments at this point to do some "crowd control" as ive seen them doing since the update.

Edit: Typo on threads being turned into threats , corrected it so it what i was trying to type XD

What? making sense? no i don't want that, i want the balance changes to not make sense till the rest of the games life! for 10 years at least!

Elsonso

Drammanoth wrote: »

You know, I'm wondering what is ZOS' reaction to this... Is it:

1) 'Nah, people always complain, some come, some leave, throwing temper tantrums. This is the law of business.'

2) 'Perhaps we've gone too far with our liberty...'

Pretty much #1, I think. Players will complain if existing builds are touched in any way that is perceived as negative. Years of this has probably jaded how ZOS interprets negative comments. They know they can largely ignore the negative emotion because it will go away with time.

As for Steam Charts.... my perception is that ESO has returned to pre-pandemic levels. My prediction is that this reviews poorly internally, which may be why they are making drastic changes this year.

Malthorne

Both games have a new content update this week. There is a reason FFXIV has 30,000 plus more players on steam.

jaws343

I don't think it is as easy to just adjust content only as some think it is.

The pre-patch situation was getting pretty dire imo. The delta between difficulty at the top end of content to difficulty at the bottom was enormous and was continuing to grow patch after patch due to the power creep at the top end.

At a certain point, if that delta gets too large, new content that you are trying to sell and market to player becomes undesirable for like 99% of the playerbase. Which is incredibly untenable. The alternative is to not increase difficulty and then the content is trivial and eventually the entire playerbase treats new DLC like Fungal Grotto and players get complacent and again, content doesn't sell, or at the very least, is viewed as stale.

You can't even begin to adjust the delta between content without first addressing the power level of the players. By lowering the delta between 0 DPs and the top end DPS, you can control the power levels of players more effectively, while also controlling for the difficulty of existing content in a more manageable way.

I fully believe, and they even told us this to some extant before PTS even started, that this patches whole intention was the initial player damage adjustments, required to further adjust content in a later patch. They only did the 10% health adjustment to appease players somewhat. I don't think content balance was their intent this patch in any way. And it is more likely that not going to be their 4th quarter focus once they have an actual live patch worth of valuable data from the playerbase and not just 10 people on PTS trying to confirm their biases on the patch.

Razorback174

jaws343 wrote: »

I don't think it is as easy to just adjust content only as some think it is.

The pre-patch situation was getting pretty dire imo. The delta between difficulty at the top end of content to difficulty at the bottom was enormous and was continuing to grow patch after patch due to the power creep at the top end.

At a certain point, if that delta gets too large, new content that you are trying to sell and market to player becomes undesirable for like 99% of the playerbase. Which is incredibly untenable. The alternative is to not increase difficulty and then the content is trivial and eventually the entire playerbase treats new DLC like Fungal Grotto and players get complacent and again, content doesn't sell, or at the very least, is viewed as stale.

You can't even begin to adjust the delta between content without first addressing the power level of the players. By lowering the delta between 0 DPs and the top end DPS, you can control the power levels of players more effectively, while also controlling for the difficulty of existing content in a more manageable way.

I fully believe, and they even told us this to some extant before PTS even started, that this patches whole intention was the initial player damage adjustments, required to further adjust content in a later patch. They only did the 10% health adjustment to appease players somewhat. I don't think content balance was their intent this patch in any way. And it is more likely that not going to be their 4th quarter focus once they have an actual live patch worth of valuable data from the playerbase and not just 10 people on PTS trying to confirm their biases on the patch.

Unacceptable. When I buy a new car, I don't get a chassis with a vague notion of maybe getting the engine months later, if the manufacturer feels like it.

There's been absolutely zero communication other than "have faith." As is, people are left with completely hobbled characters with no promise of any further tuning or fixes in sight. And this is guaranteed to be the state of the game for months to come. That's enough to drive people away, and a good many of them may never come back.

jaws343

Razorback174 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

I don't think it is as easy to just adjust content only as some think it is.

The pre-patch situation was getting pretty dire imo. The delta between difficulty at the top end of content to difficulty at the bottom was enormous and was continuing to grow patch after patch due to the power creep at the top end.

At a certain point, if that delta gets too large, new content that you are trying to sell and market to player becomes undesirable for like 99% of the playerbase. Which is incredibly untenable. The alternative is to not increase difficulty and then the content is trivial and eventually the entire playerbase treats new DLC like Fungal Grotto and players get complacent and again, content doesn't sell, or at the very least, is viewed as stale.

You can't even begin to adjust the delta between content without first addressing the power level of the players. By lowering the delta between 0 DPs and the top end DPS, you can control the power levels of players more effectively, while also controlling for the difficulty of existing content in a more manageable way.

I fully believe, and they even told us this to some extant before PTS even started, that this patches whole intention was the initial player damage adjustments, required to further adjust content in a later patch. They only did the 10% health adjustment to appease players somewhat. I don't think content balance was their intent this patch in any way. And it is more likely that not going to be their 4th quarter focus once they have an actual live patch worth of valuable data from the playerbase and not just 10 people on PTS trying to confirm their biases on the patch.

Unacceptable. When I buy a new car, I don't get a chassis with a vague notion of maybe getting the engine months later, if the manufacturer feels like it.

There's been absolutely zero communication other than "have faith." As is, people are left with completely hobbled characters with no promise of any further tuning or fixes in sight. And this is guaranteed to be the state of the game for months to come. That's enough to drive people away, and a good many of them may never come back.

But there was a promise of future adjustments. In the very first communication regarding this patch they straight up told us that they would further be balancing the game around these changes over the next patches. That was clearly communicated to us in advance.

Also, this isn't even in the same realm as your car example. The game is still functional, you can still complete content, albeit with a bit more difficulty to do so. A car with no motor doesn't function at all.

AgaTheGreat

jaws343 wrote: »

I don't think it is as easy to just adjust content only as some think it is.

The pre-patch situation was getting pretty dire imo. The delta between difficulty at the top end of content to difficulty at the bottom was enormous and was continuing to grow patch after patch due to the power creep at the top end.

At a certain point, if that delta gets too large, new content that you are trying to sell and market to player becomes undesirable for like 99% of the playerbase. Which is incredibly untenable. The alternative is to not increase difficulty and then the content is trivial and eventually the entire playerbase treats new DLC like Fungal Grotto and players get complacent and again, content doesn't sell, or at the very least, is viewed as stale.

You can't even begin to adjust the delta between content without first addressing the power level of the players. By lowering the delta between 0 DPs and the top end DPS, you can control the power levels of players more effectively, while also controlling for the difficulty of existing content in a more manageable way.

I fully believe, and they even told us this to some extant before PTS even started, that this patches whole intention was the initial player damage adjustments, required to further adjust content in a later patch. They only did the 10% health adjustment to appease players somewhat. I don't think content balance was their intent this patch in any way. And it is more likely that not going to be their 4th quarter focus once they have an actual live patch worth of valuable data from the playerbase and not just 10 people on PTS trying to confirm their biases on the patch.

This is absolutely not true. Everyone is able to achieve good results with practise but most importantly by getting into a group that actually supports you, teaches you and encourages you to get better. Eso's problem is not power creep but lack of good in game tutorials. But most importantly - not enough stable groups accross all levels of end game where people actually have the time to get better.

Grianasteri

Whatever anyone's opinion may be on the various changes implemented with updates... one unequivocally unifying issues is the totally unacceptable amount of change. Its seemingly constant and never ending.

Updates are good, new content is good, but constant buff/nerf cycles are too much - to classes, skills, gear etc. Its too much for hard core players, never mind casual players.

Please stop it Zos, a period of stability is required.

Drammanoth

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

(...) Everyone is able to achieve good results with practise but most importantly by getting into a group that actually supports you, teaches you and encourages you to get better.(...).

Correct! Now, do you know how those teachers are called? Toxic elitists.
By who? By players who genuinely don't care about the game - so they spout fancy phrases 'toxic this, toxic that' left and right.
People who have been playing the game for years (after all, ESO is 8 years old) want the community to thrive, for the game to exist and attract new players to something that is great. When your house is being devoured by fire, or molding, do you pretend that nothing is happening? I mean, you can, sure. Well, we don't.
If ZOS wants feedback, we give it to them, because we care about the product they made. We fell in love with it.