Stop removing our progress when we lose a game

SilverBride

If we win a game we gain progress in our rank, which makes sense. What doesn't make sense is removing progress we earned when we lose a game. Don't give points for a lost game, but stop taking away progress that we earned.

Sungod

Man, as someone who experiences a train of losses in a row, I would be in favour of this lol.

SilverBride

I have every ToT achievement except the one to reach Rubedite rank. I got up to around 32% then lost it all because I'm on a losing streak that just won't quit. But I still won the games I won and that progress should not be taken away.

ALAEACUS

SilverBride wrote: »

stop taking away progress that we earned.

I would love this. I made it up to 1300 points in Ebony Rank, went on a massive losing streak down to 400 points. If ZoS removed the loss of Rank points, I would just hammer it knowing I will eventually get to Rubedite over time. Right now, I have no faith that I can leave Ebony which makes me ignore Ranked Competitive battles completely.

SilverBride

I don't even care about the reward if I lose and would gladly give that up if I could just keep the progress that I worked so hard for.

Dragonnord

Because, if doing what you request, with like 15 wins, every single player would be in the Rankings (regardless their real skill level) and you would have ranking matches of an expert or advanced player destroying or getting a super easy win against someone that played 200 games and won 15 and still made it to the rankings.

Even NPCs reject you if you don't have enough knowledge and level to play against them.

So, as they are now, Rankings should only have players that have enough knowledge in order not to make ranking matches really unbalanced.

Not all the server should be in the Rankings only because they played 200 games, lost 175 of those and won 15, but since losing doesn't take out points (as you request), they still made it to leaderboards.

It happens with the Arenas and Trials leaderbords too: if you die you lose points.
 

SilverBride

Then make it so each rank requires more wins to advance and gives less points per win. I'm not asking for an easy way to the top. I don't even care about getting on the leaderboard. But it is very disheartening to play several games to get one win just to have it completely wiped out with one loss.

They could also take back a much smaller amount of points with a loss, because the way it is now feels excessive.

wolfie1.0.

i agree that rank should not be lost

I mean look any other PVP. You don't LOSE emp if you die as emp. you don't lose grand overlord if you die to many times. you don't have to restart a BG if you die once, or lose progress in medals. You don't lose AP when you die. You do lose Tel Var but many in the playerbase hate that mechanic.

Yakidafi

This is how most ranked ladders work though.

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

i agree that rank should not be lost

I mean look any other PVP. You don't LOSE emp if you die as emp. you don't lose grand overlord if you die to many times. you don't have to restart a BG if you die once, or lose progress in medals. You don't lose AP when you die. You do lose Tel Var but many in the playerbase hate that mechanic.

Quite excessive comparisons if you ask me they are different as in comparing apple to an orange and so on. They are different rank systems.

SilverBride wrote: »

Then make it so each rank requires more wins to advance and gives less points per win. I'm not asking for an easy way to the top. I don't even care about getting on the leaderboard. But it is very disheartening to play several games to get one win just to have it completely wiped out with one loss.

They could also take back a much smaller amount of points with a loss, because the way it is now feels excessive.

If one only play to reach the rewards I can understand that the ranked ladder is frustrating if you are not knowledgable enough with the decks compared to others or if the game is too much luck based.

Perhaps you dislike the competitiveness? Maybe I am too used to other ladder games where it work exactly like it do in ToT. Most other card games with a ladder work like this. Elder scrolls legends work exactly like this until you reach legendary rank.

It should become a little easier to reach the highest rank later in the season since more and more of the higher end players will have reached rubedite by then. if you play enough matches, sooner or later you should have a winstreak to get you to rubedite.

SilverBride

This is the only card game of this type I have ever played.

Dragonnord

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

i agree that rank should not be lost

I mean look any other PVP. You don't LOSE emp if you die as emp. you don't lose grand overlord if you die to many times. you don't have to restart a BG if you die once, or lose progress in medals. You don't lose AP when you die. You do lose Tel Var but many in the playerbase hate that mechanic.

Those are titles, rewards and currencies, how can you compare? None of those are rankings nor leaderboards.

I already explained why not everyone in the server should be in the rankings by just playing a lot.

To be in the rankings you need to win, have skill and knowledge of the game.
 

Dragonnord

SilverBride wrote: »

Then make it so each rank requires more wins to advance and gives less points per win. I'm not asking for an easy way to the top. I don't even care about getting on the leaderboard. But it is very disheartening to play several games to get one win just to have it completely wiped out with one loss.

So we're punishing the players that have no problem with the current system making them win more and earn less points per win?

SilverBride wrote: »

They could also take back a much smaller amount of points with a loss, because the way it is now feels excessive.

Same thing, in the end, playing a lot, even if the player loses a lot, will take them to the rankings. Even if they lose a lot and have no real knowledge of the game.

Happens in IRL sports and games: you usually don't make it to the rankings or leaderboards by losing.
 

SilverBride

I do have a knowledge of the game and all the decks. Sometimes I just can't get good cards. It happens.

Should a poker player in a tournament lose all the money they won on previous hands just because they lost one hand afterward?

Dragonnord

SilverBride wrote: »

I do have a knowledge of the game and all the decks. Sometimes I just can't get good cards. It happens.

Should a poker player in a tournament lose all the money they won on previous hands just because they lost one hand afterward?

Poker doesn't work that way, and yes, a player can lose all the money if they put it all on the table in a hand.

And that's a single Poker hand, you said it, but here in TOT we are talking about points towards rankings and leaderboards. It's something completely different.

Anyways, with all due respect, if someone can't get to Rubedite rank, they definitely don't have enough knowledge of the game yet. That's why you see mostly the same players in the rankings and the rest struggling to reach Rubedite.
 

SilverBride

I disagree.

ZOS_Hadeostry

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Rooatouille

I disagree. This is a pretty common ladder-style ranking system that I think works very well for a wide variety of games. While it is frustrating to lose all of one’s progress in one fell swoop after a loss, I think this is being adequately addressed in the coming patch not only with the deck balance changes, but also with the 150 point gain/loss cap. No longer will we see the ridiculous +1000/-1000 days and I think that will significantly help things.

This sort of system is the great equalizer — the most skilled players consistently win enough to counteract any point loss and, therefore, consistently rise to the top. I wouldn’t change anything about this system except the end of season rewards (we need more) and the proposed change to award players a number of wins in their qualifiers based on their previous season rank (and I say that as somebody who had an especially heinous showing in qualifiers this time around).

Getting rid of any consequence for losing would remove any relevance from the competitive ranked ladder and, at that point, we should probably just have the casual queue and not even have a competitive one at all — which would more than likely just result in a significant loss to the number of players who queue for Tribute in the first place. Without the risk of losing points/progress, ranked would just turn into a participation trophy farm and I would be vehemently against that.

SilverBride

I'm not suggesting to get rid of any consequences. But to lose huge chunks of progress for one loss is beyond frustrating.

I believe that if something doesn't change players will stop queuing out of frustration from never seeing any progress.

FlopsyPrince

SilverBride wrote: »

I have every ToT achievement except the one to reach Rubedite rank. I got up to around 32% then lost it all because I'm on a losing streak that just won't quit. But I still won the games I won and that progress should not be taken away.

You should play me (if I bothered to play it) since I am sure I would consistently lose. Though I am sure the RNG might be bad enough that even I could win and interrupt your progress....

SilverBride

You can't choose who you play for the ranked matches.

INM

What the point of having a ranked ladder if everyone could have just grind their way through to the top. Do you offer to have a grind-meter instead of ranks?

spartaxoxo

They already have a casual queue for non- ranked matches. Ranked matches are a measure of skill compared to other players. It's how the game can find you balanced matches in terms of player skill, and it's how the game showcases who the best players are. Removing loss entirely would turn a trophy won by skill into a participation trophy, which isn't fair to the people who earned it through winning.

I do agree wiping out ALL of your rank progress from a single match isn't fair. Right now you can drop like 1000 points because of losing a single match, which is obviously ridiculous. I'm glad they are capping it in the next patch, to make climbing more fair.

Arbit

Is there a reason to reach rubedite rank? If there is or was a dye locked behind it I would feel your plight, but if it’s just for an achievement then I personally don’t see it. The rewards of materials are the carrot on the stick for many players who want to win, and the rest of us casuals can have fun in the casual Que. I don’t see the problem unless they were making exclusive dyes, mounts, or motifs and locking them behind these rankings.

SilverBride

Reaching the Rubedite rank is the only ToT achievement I haven't gotten so I'd really like to get this, but mostly I'd like to know for my own satisfaction that I could. I went from feeling like I'd never understand this game to doing pretty well. I have no aspirations of being on the top of the leaderboard. But winning a game or two then having that progress wiped out with one loss is devastating.

Dragonnord

SilverBride wrote: »

Reaching the Rubedite rank is the only ToT achievement I haven't gotten so I'd really like to get this...

Since you are asking to not lose points, I can lose 10.000 times, win 10 times and (since losing means nothing) still get the achievement?

Doesn't sound fair to me getting an achivement that way.
 

SilverBride

I want to make this point perfectly clear.

SilverBride wrote: »

I'm not suggesting to get rid of any consequences. But to lose huge chunks of progress for one loss is beyond frustrating.

Dragonnord

SilverBride wrote: »

I want to make this point perfectly clear.

SilverBride wrote: »

I'm not suggesting to get rid of any consequences. But to lose huge chunks of progress for one loss is beyond frustrating.

But how much are you losing per match lost? Honestly, I'm not losing a huge amount of points when losing a match when trying to get to Rubedite. I think 100 points or so.

Also, when winning I have won up to 250/300 points at once.
 

XPhoenixXSix15

Ranking is pretty much good the way it is, other than the fact that instead of gaining or losing a base steady amount, it varies between 100-500 max that I've myself seen. I don't know what the game uses to calculate but each win in a row granted me an extra 100 on top of the base amount. However many times I've lost though I've always only lost 100 flat. But losing points is necessary in any competitive PVP ranking system. I don't know of one single game that has rankings that DOESN'T punish the loser. Rainbow 6 and Overwatch are just prime examples of losing rank progression from losses. Not losing progress would allow EVERY player to hit Rubedite in which case ranks and leaderboard stats are literally meaningless. Imagine allowing every player to hit Grandmaster in Overwatch or any other competitive PVP game? That's a big natural NOPE

SilverBride

It doesn't have to be that much of a loss, especially compared to how little I get with a win.

Dragonnord

XPhoenixXSix15 wrote: »

I don't know of one single game that has rankings that DOESN'T punish the loser. Rainbow 6 and Overwatch are just prime examples of losing rank progression from losses. Not losing progress would allow EVERY player to hit Rubedite in which case ranks and leaderboard stats are literally meaningless. Imagine allowing every player to hit Grandmaster in Overwatch or any other competitive PVP game? That's a big natural NOPE

This exactly. Losing progress must stay.

Can't imagine getting to Ranked and Leaderboards, or even getting an achievement by losing a lot (but because your progress is not removed you can keep losing until you win one game and advance). That would be a really absurd system.
 

SilverBride

I finally reached Rubedite and what a relief! It was a real struggle but now I can play just for the fun of it!