How Do You Think The Ebonheart Pact Will Collapse?

Jazraena

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

I think you need to read up on a timeline, and what's happening in Cyrodiil. Either way, it's not related to the formation of the Pact.

Dude it's not about how it's formed. Its how it existed for any longer than it needed to. I feel like you're not reading MY posts now lol. Cyrodiil is relevant to the pact RIGHT NOW. And Argonians are aiding the pact by fighting in Cyrodiil.

You can tell me over and over again how it formed, and I'll still say it was a naive and provably wrong decision for the argonians to remain part of it. Negotiating with your own slavemasters is naive and ultimately pointless. You either end up as second class citizens or right back where you started. Argonians are literally dying for their slavemasters over the Three Banners War. Why?

People brought up why the Pact was formed, I responded to this.

If you want to doubt why it lasted, Cyrodiil is already many years into that point. And that point is simple: For East Skyrim and Morrowind, it's mutual protection and security. Allying with anyone else is not an option due to both geography and differing aims.

For the Argonian tribes (and Keshu, while she was still with the Pact), it's to ensure their freedom. Their partnership was the hard requirement. The moment they leave, nothing guarantees their freedom. Not even Jorunn, since then he'd have to choose between the Alliance he needs and... some swamp lizards.

Geopolitics suck, morally speaking. But that's how nations and rulers work.

As for the Three Banners War that you keep bringing up for some reason - that's an entirely different boat. The Pact isn't out for conquest. The Pact isn't out for Cyrodiil, or at least not as underlying reason. The Covenant wants to reforge the Empire. The Dominion is much closer aligned to Pact goals, but even they want to explicitly rule Tamriel to prevent 'the children' (ironic, given Ayrenn's age) if you believe the official story; my personal take is still that Ayrenn kicked off this war to secure her rule at home.

And the Pact?

The Pact wants to be left alone, all three members. They don't want to be ruled. Even their war propaganda speaks of a 'Tamriel Pact' of equal partners and independent governship, only acting in concert to address continent-wide threats and to regulate the sort of dangerous magic that caused the Planemeld. These Argonians dying that you mention? They're not dying for Morrowind, they're dying to stop Molag Bal and to support the Pact's goal of every province being ultimately able to decide their own fate, including their own.

As much as I favour the Almalexia-planned-it-all' theory, let's be clear here: Morrowind has never, not once, shown imperial ambitions over millennia of history. The only expansion they ever undertook was a slow crawl into Black Marsh. Colonization, yes. Conquest, no. They have, however, routinely fended off foreign invaders. The latest of these prior the Kamal Invasion was the Reman Empire, as the only province not to have fallen even in part to Cyrodiil.

Morrowind is the power house in this trio. And they have shown absolutely no inclinations towards conquering for conquest's sake. Pretending the Pact's forray into Cyrodiil is a power grab that the Argonians wouldn't logically support is a fallacy on several levels.

And their alternative is that instead of being part of a currently better fate that will hopefully extend into the future they... go back to the status quo, and hope that Morrowind doesn't just shrug and return to enslaving Argonians the moment they drop from the Pact. They may have few guarantees, but their chances with the Pact are better than without the Pact, especially while Jorunn's word holds weight.

psychotrip

Jazraena wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

I think you need to read up on a timeline, and what's happening in Cyrodiil. Either way, it's not related to the formation of the Pact.

Dude it's not about how it's formed. Its how it existed for any longer than it needed to. I feel like you're not reading MY posts now lol. Cyrodiil is relevant to the pact RIGHT NOW. And Argonians are aiding the pact by fighting in Cyrodiil.

You can tell me over and over again how it formed, and I'll still say it was a naive and provably wrong decision for the argonians to remain part of it. Negotiating with your own slavemasters is naive and ultimately pointless. You either end up as second class citizens or right back where you started. Argonians are literally dying for their slavemasters over the Three Banners War. Why?

People brought up why the Pact was formed, I responded to this.

If you want to doubt why it lasted, Cyrodiil is already many years into that point. And that point is simple: For East Skyrim and Morrowind, it's mutual protection and security. Allying with anyone else is not an option due to both geography and differing aims.

For the Argonian tribes (and Keshu, while she was still with the Pact), it's to ensure their freedom. Their partnership was the hard requirement. The moment they leave, nothing guarantees their freedom. Not even Jorunn, since then he'd have to choose between the Alliance he needs and... some swamp lizards.

Geopolitics suck, morally speaking. But that's how nations and rulers work.

As for the Three Banners War that you keep bringing up for some reason - that's an entirely different boat. The Pact isn't out for conquest. The Pact isn't out for Cyrodiil, or at least not as underlying reason. The Covenant wants to reforge the Empire. The Dominion is much closer aligned to Pact goals, but even they want to explicitly rule Tamriel to prevent 'the children' (ironic, given Ayrenn's age) if you believe the official story; my personal take is still that Ayrenn kicked off this war to secure her rule at home.

And the Pact?

The Pact wants to be left alone, all three members. They don't want to be ruled. Even their war propaganda speaks of a 'Tamriel Pact' of equal partners and independent governship, only acting in concert to address continent-wide threats and to regulate the sort of dangerous magic that caused the Planemeld. These Argonians dying that you mention? They're not dying for Morrowind, they're dying to stop Molag Bal and to support the Pact's goal of every province being ultimately able to decide their own fate, including their own.

As much as I favour the Almalexia-planned-it-all' theory, let's be clear here: Morrowind has never, not once, shown imperial ambitions over millennia of history. The only expansion they ever undertook was a slow crawl into Black Marsh. Colonization, yes. Conquest, no. They have, however, routinely fended off foreign invaders. The latest of these prior the Kamal Invasion was the Reman Empire, as the only province not to have fallen even in part to Cyrodiil.

Morrowind is the power house in this trio. And they have shown absolutely no inclinations towards conquering for conquest's sake. Pretending the Pact's forray into Cyrodiil is a power grab that the Argonians wouldn't logically support is a fallacy on several levels.

And their alternative is that instead of being part of a currently better fate that will hopefully extend into the future they... go back to the status quo, and hope that Morrowind doesn't just shrug and return to enslaving Argonians the moment they drop from the Pact. They may have few guarantees, but their chances with the Pact are better than without the Pact, especially while Jorunn's word holds weight.

The Pact's motivations (which you listed) really dont gel with the war for Cyrodiil imo. Or perhaps its just the gameplay that doesnt mesh with the story. It's hard to look like you're just trying to defend your own lands when you're capturing territory and placing emperors on the throne, ya know? The Pact even attacks the other factions outside of cyrodiil, as I recall. They're not just fighting to stop Bal.

It's hard to square their in-game actions with the motivations of the three races in question. Not impossible, but hard, and it's one of many little issues The Pact has that make it feel poorly designed in my eyes.

The The Pact, as a faction, feels sloppy, and I'd like it if we could just leave it at that and move on. Clearly we just have different pet peeves when it comes to storytelling. I think I'll just stop replying to this thread altogether lol.

Jazraena

You're missing half of it, again.

The Pact has the following objectives in Cyrodiil:
- Stop Molag Bal
- Prevent the formation of another Empire claiming dominion over all Tamriel
- Establish a Tamriel Pact of independent, self governing nations, with the central council serving to deal with large scale threats or to regulate dangerous magic

The last two points put them into direct conflict with the Covenant and the Dominion. They don't want just to change who sits on the Ruby Throne, they want to get rid of the Throne. The entire PvP Emperorship is a game mechanic, as you rightly state.

psychotrip

Jazraena wrote: »

You're missing half of it, again.

The Pact has the following objectives in Cyrodiil:
- Stop Molag Bal
- Prevent the formation of another Empire claiming dominion over all Tamriel
- Establish a Tamriel Pact of independent, self governing nations, with the central council serving to deal with large scale threats or to regulate dangerous magic

The last two points put them into direct conflict with the Covenant and the Dominion. They don't want just to change who sits on the Ruby Throne, they want to get rid of the Throne. The entire PvP Emperorship is a game mechanic, as you rightly state.

Ok. Glad you enjoy The Pact. Hopefully you can see why I see it differently, and it's not because I'm ignoring your points.

Oakenaxe

The Planemeld happened years after the formation of the Pact. What the Pact wants is to a) stop the daedric threat and b) prevent the Imperials to mess it up again. It's a 'So done with this [snip]', not a power grab.

- I'm aware. The only way to do that is through a power grab. They don't want to build a conquering and regulative Empire, that is true, but they have to establish their own "Empire"/"Pact", whatever we wanna call it, by winning this war. So yes, they are pretty much out for Cyrodiil. And who knows what the Tribunal, especially Almalexia, really wants? I doubt they wouldn't like having more power but that is pure speculation

In short, yeah, the common goal is territorial and cultural independence for all.

Jazraena

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

You're missing half of it, again.

The Pact has the following objectives in Cyrodiil:
- Stop Molag Bal
- Prevent the formation of another Empire claiming dominion over all Tamriel
- Establish a Tamriel Pact of independent, self governing nations, with the central council serving to deal with large scale threats or to regulate dangerous magic

The last two points put them into direct conflict with the Covenant and the Dominion. They don't want just to change who sits on the Ruby Throne, they want to get rid of the Throne. The entire PvP Emperorship is a game mechanic, as you rightly state.

Ok. Glad you enjoy The Pact. Hopefully you can see why I see it differently, and it's not because I'm ignoring your points.

I don't see how one can objectively see it unlikely or illogical - that's the only thing I really object to whenever this topic comes up. Nords and Dunmer took a strategically sound decision, given the shape Tamriel was in at the Pact's formation. Wolves at every door and all, may as well turn some into friends; though the Almalexia Variant still seems the most likely to me. Keshu on the other hand took a shot at the best hope Argonians had in a while in terms of Dunmer slavery, and for a decade, probably several in the end, that seemed to work out.

And then it didn't. A tragedy, but ultimately an understandable attempt. Verisimilitude is there for me, through that.

psychotrip

Jazraena wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

You're missing half of it, again.

The Pact has the following objectives in Cyrodiil:
- Stop Molag Bal
- Prevent the formation of another Empire claiming dominion over all Tamriel
- Establish a Tamriel Pact of independent, self governing nations, with the central council serving to deal with large scale threats or to regulate dangerous magic

The last two points put them into direct conflict with the Covenant and the Dominion. They don't want just to change who sits on the Ruby Throne, they want to get rid of the Throne. The entire PvP Emperorship is a game mechanic, as you rightly state.

Ok. Glad you enjoy The Pact. Hopefully you can see why I see it differently, and it's not because I'm ignoring your points.

I don't see how one can objectively see it unlikely or illogical - that's the only thing I really object to whenever this topic comes up. Nords and Dunmer took a strategically sound decision, given the shape Tamriel was in at the Pact's formation. Wolves at every door and all, may as well turn some into friends; though the Almalexia Variant still seems the most likely to me. Keshu on the other hand took a shot at the best hope Argonians had in a while in terms of Dunmer slavery, and for a decade, probably several in the end, that seemed to work out.

And then it didn't. A tragedy, but ultimately an understandable attempt. Verisimilitude is there for me, through that.

Ultimately, I just can't rationalize the logic of negotiating with one's slavemasters, and I think history proves me right on that. TES history, of course ;]

I just can't respect that mindset and I find it inherently flawed. Slavery is not solved through negotiation. Its solved by killing your slave owners, dismantling the state that runs off slavery, and aligning yourself with abolitionists who will help bring about revolution. Otherwise you end up as second class citizens at best, or the status quo returns at worse.

The method imperials took was better imo. They didnt kill every ayleid they saw, but they made damned sure to dismantle their empire and replace it with their own. Their method had flaws too but at least it makes sense.

The idea of the oft oppressed argonians aligning with their slavemasters is gross to me and I simply can't get past it. I dont want to dwell on this but we keep getting locked in this argumentative circle.

So, if we could please move on from the "is it good writing" debate then that'd be great. I'm only still responding because I keep getting notifications.

VaranisArano

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

You're missing half of it, again.

The Pact has the following objectives in Cyrodiil:
- Stop Molag Bal
- Prevent the formation of another Empire claiming dominion over all Tamriel
- Establish a Tamriel Pact of independent, self governing nations, with the central council serving to deal with large scale threats or to regulate dangerous magic

The last two points put them into direct conflict with the Covenant and the Dominion. They don't want just to change who sits on the Ruby Throne, they want to get rid of the Throne. The entire PvP Emperorship is a game mechanic, as you rightly state.

Ok. Glad you enjoy The Pact. Hopefully you can see why I see it differently, and it's not because I'm ignoring your points.

I don't see how one can objectively see it unlikely or illogical - that's the only thing I really object to whenever this topic comes up. Nords and Dunmer took a strategically sound decision, given the shape Tamriel was in at the Pact's formation. Wolves at every door and all, may as well turn some into friends; though the Almalexia Variant still seems the most likely to me. Keshu on the other hand took a shot at the best hope Argonians had in a while in terms of Dunmer slavery, and for a decade, probably several in the end, that seemed to work out.

And then it didn't. A tragedy, but ultimately an understandable attempt. Verisimilitude is there for me, through that.

Ultimately, I just can't rationalize the logic of negotiating with one's slavemasters, and I think history proves me right on that. TES history, of course ;]

I just can't respect that mindset and I find it inherently flawed. Slavery is not solved through negotiation. Its solved by killing your slave owners, dismantling the state that runs off slavery, and aligning yourself with abolitionists who will help bring about revolution. Otherwise you end up as second class citizens at best, or the status quo returns at worse.

The method imperials took was better imo. They didnt kill every ayleid they saw, but they made damned sure to dismantle their empire and replace it with their own. Their method had flaws too but at least it makes sense.

The idea of the oft oppressed argonians aligning with their slavemasters is gross to me and I simply can't get past it. I dont want to dwell on this but we keep getting locked in this argumentative circle.

So, if we could please move on from the "is it good writing" debate then that'd be great. I'm only still responding because I keep getting notifications.

Sorry if I'm getting stuck on this, but I like Keshu so I'm thinking through why she'd go for the Pact.

You don't have to accept that it was a good plan in hindsight. It wasn't. It just that it was the best plan that Keshu could come up with at the time that best accomplished her plans for Argonian society Otherwise we're saying she's naive or stupid...but she's clearly not given her presentation in the lore and in Blackwood. She's very competent as a General and Governor but idealistic, and history is filled with idealists who tried their best with what was available to them and didn't succeed.

Her ideal wasn't even that far-fetched. Keep the Dunmer off their back long enough for her very capable Black Fin Legion to become one of many legions, and suddenly the Dunmer slavers don't look so scary. But the other Argonian tribes weren't really interested in signing onto her vision for the future, and generally preferred to look to the Hist for things to sort themselves out in time, and that philosophical passivity meant that her plan didn't pan out.

She was never in Alessia's position to soundly defeat her oppressors and dictate terms afterwards, especially once we take into account the wider political situation in Tamriel. She might have beaten Dres in Stormhold and battered Indoril in the war with the Akaviri had she not saved them instead, but that is a far cry from killing all the slave owners and dismantling the state (of which ruling Almsivi still have the Tools of Lorkhan enabling them to see off simple threats). She never had that choice to begin with. Nor did she have a better choice to ally herself with the Dominion, lacking both a personal connection with their leadership and a common goal of self defense instead of putting a young Queen on the throne.

In contrast, when the Saxheel were in that position after the Hist helped them defeat the Oblivion Crisis and Red Year devastated Morrowind, that's exactly what they did. They smashed the Dunmer militarily and territorially until Redoran rallied. It's notable that by TES V, Helseth and House Hlaalu are completely out of power, but the emancipation they pushed through between TES 3 and 4 seems to still be in place. Presumably even the hardline traditionalists had to admit they got their butts kicked by the Saxheel and slavery was over.


Now what I do find gross is the way the Dunmer in Stonefalls respond to allying with the Argonians with continued distrust, racism, and a very one-way road approach to who's making sacrifices so that the Pact can succeed.

That's not something I blame Keshu for. In fact, I blame Almalexia and General Tanval Indoril for not setting a better example for how to treat the allies who saved their bacon. But then, the quests for those characters go out of their way to show that they aren't exactly completely good and heroic people. Almalexia is a villain with excellent publicity and Indoril isn't much better. But Keshu wouldn't know that at the time, either.

psychotrip

VaranisArano wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

You're missing half of it, again.

The Pact has the following objectives in Cyrodiil:
- Stop Molag Bal
- Prevent the formation of another Empire claiming dominion over all Tamriel
- Establish a Tamriel Pact of independent, self governing nations, with the central council serving to deal with large scale threats or to regulate dangerous magic

The last two points put them into direct conflict with the Covenant and the Dominion. They don't want just to change who sits on the Ruby Throne, they want to get rid of the Throne. The entire PvP Emperorship is a game mechanic, as you rightly state.

Ok. Glad you enjoy The Pact. Hopefully you can see why I see it differently, and it's not because I'm ignoring your points.

I don't see how one can objectively see it unlikely or illogical - that's the only thing I really object to whenever this topic comes up. Nords and Dunmer took a strategically sound decision, given the shape Tamriel was in at the Pact's formation. Wolves at every door and all, may as well turn some into friends; though the Almalexia Variant still seems the most likely to me. Keshu on the other hand took a shot at the best hope Argonians had in a while in terms of Dunmer slavery, and for a decade, probably several in the end, that seemed to work out.

And then it didn't. A tragedy, but ultimately an understandable attempt. Verisimilitude is there for me, through that.

Ultimately, I just can't rationalize the logic of negotiating with one's slavemasters, and I think history proves me right on that. TES history, of course ;]

I just can't respect that mindset and I find it inherently flawed. Slavery is not solved through negotiation. Its solved by killing your slave owners, dismantling the state that runs off slavery, and aligning yourself with abolitionists who will help bring about revolution. Otherwise you end up as second class citizens at best, or the status quo returns at worse.

The method imperials took was better imo. They didnt kill every ayleid they saw, but they made damned sure to dismantle their empire and replace it with their own. Their method had flaws too but at least it makes sense.

The idea of the oft oppressed argonians aligning with their slavemasters is gross to me and I simply can't get past it. I dont want to dwell on this but we keep getting locked in this argumentative circle.

So, if we could please move on from the "is it good writing" debate then that'd be great. I'm only still responding because I keep getting notifications.

Sorry if I'm getting stuck on this, but I like Keshu so I'm thinking through why she'd go for the Pact.

You don't have to accept that it was a good plan in hindsight. It wasn't. It just that it was the best plan that Keshu could come up with at the time that best accomplished her plans for Argonian society Otherwise we're saying she's naive or stupid...but she's clearly not given her presentation in the lore and in Blackwood. She's very competent as a General and Governor but idealistic, and history is filled with idealists who tried their best with what was available to them and didn't succeed.

Her ideal wasn't even that far-fetched. Keep the Dunmer off their back long enough for her very capable Black Fin Legion to become one of many legions, and suddenly the Dunmer slavers don't look so scary. But the other Argonian tribes weren't really interested in signing onto her vision for the future, and generally preferred to look to the Hist for things to sort themselves out in time, and that philosophical passivity meant that her plan didn't pan out.

She was never in Alessia's position to soundly defeat her oppressors and dictate terms afterwards, especially once we take into account the wider political situation in Tamriel. She might have beaten Dres in Stormhold and battered Indoril in the war with the Akaviri had she not saved them instead, but that is a far cry from killing all the slave owners and dismantling the state (of which ruling Almsivi still have the Tools of Lorkhan enabling them to see off simple threats). She never had that choice to begin with. Nor did she have a better choice to ally herself with the Dominion, lacking both a personal connection with their leadership and a common goal of self defense instead of putting a young Queen on the throne.

In contrast, when the Saxheel were in that position after the Hist helped them defeat the Oblivion Crisis and Red Year devastated Morrowind, that's exactly what they did. They smashed the Dunmer militarily and territorially until Redoran rallied. It's notable that by TES V, Helseth and House Hlaalu are completely out of power, but the emancipation they pushed through between TES 3 and 4 seems to still be in place. Presumably even the hardline traditionalists had to admit they got their butts kicked by the Saxheel and slavery was over.


Now what I do find gross is the way the Dunmer in Stonefalls respond to allying with the Argonians with continued distrust, racism, and a very one-way road approach to who's making sacrifices so that the Pact can succeed.

That's not something I blame Keshu for. In fact, I blame Almalexia and General Tanval Indoril for not setting a better example for how to treat the allies who saved their bacon. But then, the quests for those characters go out of their way to show that they aren't exactly completely good and heroic people. Almalexia is a villain with excellent publicity and Indoril isn't much better. But Keshu wouldn't know that at the time, either.

We're getting into dicey territory here so I'm stopping before I start citing *other* examples.

Keshu made a bad decision. Not even in hindsight. If that conflicts with her intelligence in other areas, then that either means she made a rare, grave error in judgement, or her intelligence is inconsistent. Dont blame me for that, blame whoever mandated that argonians join the pact.

You don't negotiate with slavers. You kill them, align with those who will help you kill them, and dismantle the government that allowed it. Anything less is complicit, and won't be effective long-term. How is that not obvious to any leader whose people are being enslaved?

You can't prove your "humanity" through "reason and logic". The kind of people who enslave others, and are evil enough to re-enslave them after they've proved their humanity can not be reasoned with. Sure, she didn't know the latter, but couldn't she make an educated guess based on the fact that so many dunmer in power still think she's less than them? You brought up examples yourself.

How do you reason with people who think you have no rights? With violence.

Keshu is aiding a nation that is still enslaving her people. The Telvanni and Dres "not being in the pact" doesn't matter. Morrowind is still Morrowind, Great Houses or not. It would be like if [insert country here] decided to abolish slavery, but [insert province or state here] decided not to participate, and the country as a whole is still reaping the economic benefits. Bethesda already made this point for me. Am I remembering that part wrong? Did Dres and Telvanni ban slavery? Are they enforcing that ban? Aren't they enslaving other beast folk? What, does she think the dunmer are gonna see Argonians as "the good ones" and leave them alone? If I'm remembering wrong then disregard this paragraph.

This is like in TES when the Empire was doing the same thing by allowing slavery in Morrowind. Wait, isn't this literally the point of "The Eastern Provinces Re-Examined?" It was evil then and evil now.

Regardless, Keshu is aiding a slave-nation on the promise that they'll stop enslaving her people. When it came to the akaviri war it made sense. Now, she's complicit in slavery. Sorry.

I'm done because this is obviously upsetting for me to analyze any deeper, and clearly I'm not changing anyone's mind here.

JonnAndCo

"You don't negotiate with slavers. You kill them, align with those who will help you kill them, and dismantle the government that allowed it."

I have been puzzling over this statement, since it doesn't mirror our own history. The British Empire outlawed slavery after a long drawn out fight in parliament. Part of that process did involve the decimation of the slave trade during the Napoleonic wars, since the ships that carried them were prizes to be taken by the French, but the ultimate end was brought about via diplomacy. Why make such an absolute statement when our own history doesn't even show this to be true?

VaranisArano

psychotrip wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

You're missing half of it, again.

The Pact has the following objectives in Cyrodiil:
- Stop Molag Bal
- Prevent the formation of another Empire claiming dominion over all Tamriel
- Establish a Tamriel Pact of independent, self governing nations, with the central council serving to deal with large scale threats or to regulate dangerous magic

The last two points put them into direct conflict with the Covenant and the Dominion. They don't want just to change who sits on the Ruby Throne, they want to get rid of the Throne. The entire PvP Emperorship is a game mechanic, as you rightly state.

Ok. Glad you enjoy The Pact. Hopefully you can see why I see it differently, and it's not because I'm ignoring your points.

I don't see how one can objectively see it unlikely or illogical - that's the only thing I really object to whenever this topic comes up. Nords and Dunmer took a strategically sound decision, given the shape Tamriel was in at the Pact's formation. Wolves at every door and all, may as well turn some into friends; though the Almalexia Variant still seems the most likely to me. Keshu on the other hand took a shot at the best hope Argonians had in a while in terms of Dunmer slavery, and for a decade, probably several in the end, that seemed to work out.

And then it didn't. A tragedy, but ultimately an understandable attempt. Verisimilitude is there for me, through that.

Ultimately, I just can't rationalize the logic of negotiating with one's slavemasters, and I think history proves me right on that. TES history, of course ;]

I just can't respect that mindset and I find it inherently flawed. Slavery is not solved through negotiation. Its solved by killing your slave owners, dismantling the state that runs off slavery, and aligning yourself with abolitionists who will help bring about revolution. Otherwise you end up as second class citizens at best, or the status quo returns at worse.

The method imperials took was better imo. They didnt kill every ayleid they saw, but they made damned sure to dismantle their empire and replace it with their own. Their method had flaws too but at least it makes sense.

The idea of the oft oppressed argonians aligning with their slavemasters is gross to me and I simply can't get past it. I dont want to dwell on this but we keep getting locked in this argumentative circle.

So, if we could please move on from the "is it good writing" debate then that'd be great. I'm only still responding because I keep getting notifications.

Sorry if I'm getting stuck on this, but I like Keshu so I'm thinking through why she'd go for the Pact.

You don't have to accept that it was a good plan in hindsight. It wasn't. It just that it was the best plan that Keshu could come up with at the time that best accomplished her plans for Argonian society Otherwise we're saying she's naive or stupid...but she's clearly not given her presentation in the lore and in Blackwood. She's very competent as a General and Governor but idealistic, and history is filled with idealists who tried their best with what was available to them and didn't succeed.

Her ideal wasn't even that far-fetched. Keep the Dunmer off their back long enough for her very capable Black Fin Legion to become one of many legions, and suddenly the Dunmer slavers don't look so scary. But the other Argonian tribes weren't really interested in signing onto her vision for the future, and generally preferred to look to the Hist for things to sort themselves out in time, and that philosophical passivity meant that her plan didn't pan out.

She was never in Alessia's position to soundly defeat her oppressors and dictate terms afterwards, especially once we take into account the wider political situation in Tamriel. She might have beaten Dres in Stormhold and battered Indoril in the war with the Akaviri had she not saved them instead, but that is a far cry from killing all the slave owners and dismantling the state (of which ruling Almsivi still have the Tools of Lorkhan enabling them to see off simple threats). She never had that choice to begin with. Nor did she have a better choice to ally herself with the Dominion, lacking both a personal connection with their leadership and a common goal of self defense instead of putting a young Queen on the throne.

In contrast, when the Saxheel were in that position after the Hist helped them defeat the Oblivion Crisis and Red Year devastated Morrowind, that's exactly what they did. They smashed the Dunmer militarily and territorially until Redoran rallied. It's notable that by TES V, Helseth and House Hlaalu are completely out of power, but the emancipation they pushed through between TES 3 and 4 seems to still be in place. Presumably even the hardline traditionalists had to admit they got their butts kicked by the Saxheel and slavery was over.


Now what I do find gross is the way the Dunmer in Stonefalls respond to allying with the Argonians with continued distrust, racism, and a very one-way road approach to who's making sacrifices so that the Pact can succeed.

That's not something I blame Keshu for. In fact, I blame Almalexia and General Tanval Indoril for not setting a better example for how to treat the allies who saved their bacon. But then, the quests for those characters go out of their way to show that they aren't exactly completely good and heroic people. Almalexia is a villain with excellent publicity and Indoril isn't much better. But Keshu wouldn't know that at the time, either.

We're getting into dicey territory here so I'm stopping before I start citing *other* examples.

Keshu made a bad decision. Not even in hindsight. If that conflicts with her intelligence in other areas, then that either means she made a rare, grave error in judgement, or her intelligence is inconsistent. Dont blame me for that, blame whoever mandated that argonians join the pact.

You don't negotiate with slavers. You kill them, align with those who will help you kill them, and dismantle the government that allowed it. Anything less is complicit, and won't be effective long-term. How is that not obvious to any leader whose people are being enslaved?

You can't prove your "humanity" through "reason and logic". The kind of people who enslave others, and are evil enough to re-enslave them after they've proved their humanity can not be reasoned with. Sure, she didn't know the latter, but couldn't she make an educated guess based on the fact that so many dunmer in power still think she's less than them? You brought up examples yourself.

How do you reason with people who think you have no rights? With violence.

Keshu is aiding a nation that is still enslaving her people. The Telvanni and Dres "not being in the pact" doesn't matter. Morrowind is still Morrowind, Great Houses or not. It would be like if [insert country here] decided to abolish slavery, but [insert province or state here] decided not to participate, and the country as a whole is still reaping the economic benefits. Bethesda already made this point for me. Am I remembering that part wrong? Did Dres and Telvanni ban slavery? Are they enforcing that ban? Aren't they enslaving other beast folk? What, does she think the dunmer are gonna see Argonians as "the good ones" and leave them alone? If I'm remembering wrong then disregard this paragraph.

This is like in TES when the Empire was doing the same thing by allowing slavery in Morrowind. Wait, isn't this literally the point of "The Eastern Provinces Re-Examined?" It was evil then and evil now.

Regardless, Keshu is aiding a slave-nation on the promise that they'll stop enslaving her people. When it came to the akaviri war it made sense. Now, she's complicit in slavery. Sorry.

I'm done because this is obviously upsetting for me to analyze any deeper, and clearly I'm not changing anyone's mind here.

Sorry for continuing an upsetting conversation, then. You take care!

psychotrip

JonnAndCo wrote: »

Why make such an absolute statement when our own history doesn't even show this to be true?

Ignorance.

You act like there werent slave revolts that pushed this to happen, as well as abolitionists who pushed their government to act, and third party allies that rallied with them. Exactly what I propose, and even that wasnt thorough enough.

You also act like things just "got better" and that people werent treated like second class citizens for decades, even now. For God's sake, you use the British Empire as an example of handling slavery well??

Now stop before we all get banned.

JonnAndCo

It wasn't ignorance, I know the history. I purposely kept my reply brief because I don't like to discuss the real world in a game. None of the assumptions you made concerning my view of our own history are fair or accurate, but as you suggest, I will drop the matter, and simply restate:

Why make absolute statements that do not mirror reality?

psychotrip

JonnAndCo wrote: »

It wasn't ignorance, I know the history. I purposely kept my reply brief because I don't like to discuss the real world in a game. None of the assumptions you made concerning my view of our own history are fair or accurate, but as you suggest, I will drop the matter, and simply restate:

Why make absolute statements that do not mirror reality?

Hey everyone, google british slave rebellions. See what pops up. But obviously an african guy (ie me) doesnt know what he's talking about. Typical.

Peace out.

JonnAndCo

Back on topic, I have really enjoyed this thread. Elder Scrolls lore is greatly enhanced by it's heartbreaking struggles. You can't empathize with something until it strikes a cord within you, and I feel Elder Scrolls does this better then most games out there. Nearly every race has it's tragedies but the Orcs and Argonians seem to be the games underdogs, and that is why we root for them.

On the other hand, races that are usually glamorized in other games, such as elves have all sorts of warts in Elder Scrolls (racism, bigotry, and even cannibalism). It gives the game flavor.

Jazraena

Real Life is more complicated than 'just rise up', and not one slaving state has just fallen to slave revolts. They need to change from the inside as well, ultimately, and that needs to start somewhere.

Keshu saw a chance. Right there, right then, she was in a position to make demands of Almalexia with Jorunn's backing. It freed Argonians, sans House Telvanni - but including House Dres, they were part of the Pact and obliged, if grumbling. Meanwhile, her continued guerilla fighting, while annoying, hasn't seen much promise to truly drive out Dunmer slavers.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - all she risked was a return to the Status Quo. And she was successful, for quite a while. And might have been even more so, if her own people followed along in greater numbers, but ultimately that's not the Argonian way. Not even the An-Xileel rallyied all of Black Marsh.

And frankly, such tragedies are something I consider good writing; just like I consider it good writing that not one realm and ruler in TES is outright good or bad. It's not 'Good Kingdom' vs 'Bad Kingdom', at least once you dig deeper than surface level. It adds realism and verisimilitude to the world.

JonnAndCo

Also not everything has to be a frontal assault. The Foreign Slave Trade Bill was a tool the British abolitionists used to help de-fund the slave trade.

In ESO, it is highly conceivable Keshu saw the Pact as a way to de-fund the Argonian slave trade. Cut off the profits, and the trade withers at the roots. Clearly it didn't work, but it was a worthwhile effort never the less.

Jazraena

Mhm. And as said, she got to make a direct request to Almalexia. This is equivalent to getting the King of England (with the backing of an important allied King) to outlaw enslaving your people, specifically.

It's a better shot than most IRL movements of that sort ever had at one singular moment.

JonnAndCo

In Elder Scrolls, the Argonians are portrayed as having deep insight, a finger on the pulse of fate as it were. All throughout history great minds have been willing to try something new, and when they fail in one area, they try another. I see it as a testimony to Keshu's perception that she was able to "think outside the box". When beating her head against the front door failed, she went around to the back.

Mascen

If I had to guess, it'll probably have something to do with the reunification of Skyrim. The second Akaviri invasion was only possible because of the split and likewise the Ebonheart pact formation was because Jorunn was only in control of Eastern Skyrim. Western Skyrim and the central freeholds of Whiterun, Dawnstar and Winterhold seem more content to be be neutral so it seems unification would lead to dissolving the Pact.

And without the Nords to back up their assertion for rights things go back to slavery as usual with the Dunmer and Argonians.

JonnAndCo

And the groundwork has already been laid for that as well:

It seemed Prince Irnskar was taking a shine to Svana at the end of the Greymoor expansion, so reunification could be very near.

Eporem

...

Mascen

JonnAndCo wrote: »

And the groundwork has already been laid for that as well:

It seemed Prince Irnskar was taking a shine to Svana at the end of the Greymoor expansion, so reunification could be very near.

Depends. Alot remains to be answered for regarding the 3 remaining Freeholds of Whiterun, Dawnstar and Winterhold.

Whiterun and Winterhold have particular interest for me. One out of nostalgia, and the other because the TESV lore gives ZOS a chance to build up Winterhold to how they imagine it was in its heyday.

My concern is that when ZOS finally does come around to covering the remaining holds the results will be....lackluster. Mortal was already relegated as a backwater town playing second banana to Solitude while Markarth, Windhelm, and Riften were all made zone hubs. I fear Dawnstar in particular will be treated the same as Morthal in this regard.