Why is pvp so beginner-unfriendly?

Sleeping_OwI

I'm a pvE vet, made a pvp build recently (magDK, Trickery, BSW, Magma, trainee chest+Markyn) to finally get into pvp and have some fun and maybe do some fun stuff in the upcoming event... and it's just constant ass whooping. Every battleground match, there's a full group of organized strong players going around killing everything in sight. I can't even when make a dent on them 1v1, let alone if they're more. And believe me I'm not exaggerating, out of every 5 matches, 4 were like this, it's so frequent and unrewarding. There was only 1 match which was better balanced and half fun.

Is it always supposed to be like this? Beginners just get their ass kicked constantly until maybe they get better after a long time? I wish there was a place or mode where I could fight players in my own skill level, not be put against pvp gods and go 0-10 at the end of most matches. How are you supposed to learn anything when you die under 5 seconds no matter what you do or how much you try?

Just to be clear and summarize, I dont mind dying and losing, I know it's part of the process. It's constantly being put against groups and players that are waay better than me that makes it unfair, unfun and frustrating. I feel like I'm wasting my time trying to get into Eso's pvp when almost every match is frustarting and unrewarding like this..

ZOS_Suserial

Move this to a more subject appropriate channel

Necrotech_Master

welcome to BGs and the sheer lack of an MMR lol

personally i enjoy the cyro pvp more as i feel more impactful there and not always getting run over, and most times i do get run over its because i was being trampled by a "herd of deranged animals" (/s) lol

honestly there is a lot in this game that is not necessarily beginner friendly

achieving good dps, playing a support character is not about sheer HPS output as a healer (although is a good start) and to try to provide group buffs, tanks are properly managing aggro

many of these intricacies are not taught in game

Casul

Remember when you struggled with PvE because you were new and didn't know how to do the content?

Welcome back to that feeling.

PvP is a very challenging learning curve.

blktauna

Find a group in Cyrodil and run with them. Do some castle repair/support to get used to siege. Its not simple. Its not your fault, just play around as you can and eventually it'll click.

Wolfpaw

Sleeping_OwI wrote: »

I'm a pvE vet, made a pvp build recently (magDK, Trickery, BSW, Magma, trainee chest+Markyn) to finally get into pvp and have some fun and maybe do some fun stuff in the upcoming event... and it's just constant ass whooping. Every battleground match, there's a full group of organized strong players going around killing everything in sight. I can't even when make a dent on them 1v1, let alone if they're more. And believe me I'm not exaggerating, out of every 5 matches, 4 were like this, it's so frequent and unrewarding. There was only 1 match which was better balanced and half fun.

Is it always supposed to be like this? Beginners just get their ass kicked constantly until maybe they get better after a long time? I wish there was a place or mode where I could fight players in my own skill level, not be put against pvp gods and go 0-10 at the end of most matches. How are you supposed to learn anything when you die under 5 seconds no matter what you do or how much you try?

Just to be clear and summarize, I dont mind dying and losing, I know it's part of the process. It's constantly being put against groups and players that are waay better than me that makes it unfair, unfun and frustrating. I feel like I'm wasting my time trying to get into Eso's pvp when almost every match is frustarting and unrewarding like this..

You said the reason I put in bold, BG system is garbage, come to Cyrodiil.

LurgidBean

If you're not really into PvP this might not be appealing but I got better (not good) when I played in under 50 BGs. It taught me how to work with a minimal toolkit and learn to survive, work with my team, get the kills. It got me used to playing in battlegrounds, because there is a lot to learn that can't even be put into bullet points, it's experiential. Like the terrain, different arenas and how other players think. There is no predictable, scripted behaviors like PvE. You need to practice with the speed & reaction, much more. Look at your recaps and see what's killing you, figure out if you can counter. As you level up you figure out what skills you like, which don't work for you, and develop a bit of a personalized strategy, many of these things will be applicable to any class and I think easier to learn in under 50. You don't even have to level all the way, by level 30 or so, levelling mostly through BGs, you've got good experience under your belt.

I also like under 50 BGs because there are no mythics, and if someone has Dark Convergence or Plague Break, you gotta respect the commitment to the grind to be carried by a set they'll be outlevelling in 5-10 matches. Or the expensive commitment to spend the Telvar for an under 50 shoulder set. Both of which I've seen on XBNA.

MBBOWOLVERINE

Completely disagree with this post, considering this whole game now caters to new players and has constantly reduced the skill ceiling, in a fight, class and build matter more than skill, just hop on a dk and you’ll outperform nb mains who have played for years

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

@Sleeping_OwI this is a really good video for picking up some tips for that type of combat:
https://youtu.be/P0BQDdsbAac

StarOfElyon

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Sleeping_OwI wrote: »

I'm a pvE vet, made a pvp build recently (magDK, Trickery, BSW, Magma, trainee chest+Markyn) to finally get into pvp and have some fun and maybe do some fun stuff in the upcoming event... and it's just constant ass whooping. Every battleground match, there's a full group of organized strong players going around killing everything in sight. I can't even when make a dent on them 1v1, let alone if they're more. And believe me I'm not exaggerating, out of every 5 matches, 4 were like this, it's so frequent and unrewarding. There was only 1 match which was better balanced and half fun.

Is it always supposed to be like this? Beginners just get their ass kicked constantly until maybe they get better after a long time? I wish there was a place or mode where I could fight players in my own skill level, not be put against pvp gods and go 0-10 at the end of most matches. How are you supposed to learn anything when you die under 5 seconds no matter what you do or how much you try?

Just to be clear and summarize, I dont mind dying and losing, I know it's part of the process. It's constantly being put against groups and players that are waay better than me that makes it unfair, unfun and frustrating. I feel like I'm wasting my time trying to get into Eso's pvp when almost every match is frustarting and unrewarding like this..

You said the reason I put in bold, BG system is garbage, come to Cyrodiil.

Cyrodiil sucks unless you enjoy wasting time riding from keep to keep. Imperial City is the best pvp zone.

DigiAngel

Several reasons why ESO PVP is so unfriendly to beginners:

• Anonymity: People can show the unkindness they want online with no repercussions.
• Selfishness: "Screw everyone else as long as I get my AP/Telvar".
• Lack of compassion: PvP zone are chock full of players that just don't care.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

DigiAngel wrote: »

Several reasons why ESO PVP is so unfriendly to beginners:

• Anonymity: People can show the unkindness they want online with no repercussions.
• Selfishness: "Screw everyone else as long as I get my AP/Telvar".
• Lack of compassion: PvP zone are chock full of players that just don't care.

I would say the biggest reason is lack of pvp development resources and care.
All of the above are solvable with some though, features and rewards.

Wolfpaw

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Sleeping_OwI wrote: »

I'm a pvE vet, made a pvp build recently (magDK, Trickery, BSW, Magma, trainee chest+Markyn) to finally get into pvp and have some fun and maybe do some fun stuff in the upcoming event... and it's just constant ass whooping. Every battleground match, there's a full group of organized strong players going around killing everything in sight. I can't even when make a dent on them 1v1, let alone if they're more. And believe me I'm not exaggerating, out of every 5 matches, 4 were like this, it's so frequent and unrewarding. There was only 1 match which was better balanced and half fun.

Is it always supposed to be like this? Beginners just get their ass kicked constantly until maybe they get better after a long time? I wish there was a place or mode where I could fight players in my own skill level, not be put against pvp gods and go 0-10 at the end of most matches. How are you supposed to learn anything when you die under 5 seconds no matter what you do or how much you try?

Just to be clear and summarize, I dont mind dying and losing, I know it's part of the process. It's constantly being put against groups and players that are waay better than me that makes it unfair, unfun and frustrating. I feel like I'm wasting my time trying to get into Eso's pvp when almost every match is frustarting and unrewarding like this..

You said the reason I put in bold, BG system is garbage, come to Cyrodiil.

Cyrodiil sucks unless you enjoy wasting time riding from keep to keep. Imperial City is the best pvp zone.

I do like IC once in awhile, a lot of PvE going on though. I just teleport to keeps (pre flag) most of the time, it's only 20k ap. Big fights are fun. Both zones are better than BG's.

geonsocal

I too would endorse a move from battlegrounds to cyrodiil...

no timer, more freedom to choose your fights, and depending on when you play a lot more other players around for enemies to focus on...

in battlegrounds the clock and environments add extra pressure to newer pvpers...

MEBengalsFan2001

BuildMan wrote: »

Remember when you struggled with PvE because you were new and didn't know how to do the content?

Welcome back to that feeling.

PvP is a very challenging learning curve.

When players are cheating! To many times I've witness blatant cheating that it surprises to see those same players rinsing and repeating their cheating ways without anything being done to correct their behavior, even after being reported by say a whole alliance.

PVP is a different animal than PVE. PVE is all scripted whereas PVP isn't and it makes it more challenging.

The issue with PVP atm is that immunity isn't working as intended as you can get double and tripled stunned when you should have immunity. Gear sets like Dark Convergence and even some skills don't follow the immunity rule making it so even if you have immunity you are still SOL and can end up dead. Healing is over the top atm especially when you have 2-3 players running rapid regen, oakensoul also gives player way too many buffs making it so they can spam their ultimate and they get some crazy buffs as well.

Game is broken a bit in PVP and what could be an exceptional experience for new players falls flat and is why even experienced PVP players are simply calling it quits for now. It seems like update 35 may resolve some of the issues but not all of them.

ChunkyCat

Playing against the computer is easy mode.

FluffyReachWitch

PvP is just a whole other beast. In PvE you can thoroughly prepare for dungeon encounters and the same boss fight will be waiting for you hours, days, weeks, or months from when you started. In PvP, the "boss fight" is doing the same thing and preparing for the occasion of obliterating people.

PvP is also one of those things that you just need to practice at, because even if you do acquire godly tiers of gear and the right skills, they don't give you the experience you need to succeed with them. You have to get into tons of encounters with players who are using different classes, learn the tells they have as they attack, learn different footwork, and so on. Just as important, you have to learn when to press the attack, how far you can wade into your enemies and keep relative control of the situation, and when to fall back. These are skills that need time and lots experience to hone.

Like others here, I would recommend going to Cyrodiil instead. You'll have many more allies (and of course more opponents), the structure of sieges allows you to use different tools in combat, there's more room to breathe during fights, and it's the perfect environment to learn to read your enemies.

Rohamad_Ali

PvP is unfriendly to everyone not just beginners. Every update more things to change, learn an rebuild. It's a circus for the mad. The older the pvp'er the more bitter they become. An rightfully so. Those players stayed playing with the least amount of content updates year after year...

Go to Cyrodiil an join a guild willing to teach. They still exist. After years of bitter engagements you too can join us as one the grumpy pvp ones shaking paws at developers year after year. Many blessings to you in your endeavors.

Didgerion

It is beginner unfriendly because they constantly collide with top-tier pvp-ers.

Faded

Sleeping_OwI wrote: »

How are you supposed to learn anything when you die under 5 seconds no matter what you do or how much you try?

Keep trying. Find a guild with a BG focus if that's the PVP you like so you have allies and a source of info. And talk to experienced PVPers, especially the ones who kill you.

Experience > gear and always will be. Only one way to get it.

OBJnoob

I’ve heard people say that as a new player it’s good to be tanky. It’s not. Now I’m not saying you can’t use some heavy armor, or 1 defensive set, or sword n shield. What I’m saying is the last thing you should do is go out of your way to become a tank in hopes that you can learn more by living longer. It is a very counter intuitive part of eso that damage potential also equals healing potential. You can’t pvp without a large amount of damage you just can’t. What you may perceive as tanky is normally defensive percent modifiers (major protection for instance,) that are acquired not through 5 piece sets but instead through passives and slotted skills. And good self healing— which again goes back to having high damage.

As a new player you may think that what is expected of you is to jump headlong into the scrum and survive through sheer talent alone… let me put you at ease, it really isn’t about that. Very very few people can do that against adequate competition. If you’ve ever seen such a case, trust me, it was either one talented player fighting rather poor players OR it was one talented player kiting and line of sighting so well that even though there were 8 people nobody could properly target him. In other words he wasn’t being hit hardly at all— and you can kinda thank lag for that.

Instead, what being a successful pvper is actually about, is timing and positioning. You really only want to engage (this is from a bg or small scale perspective mostly,) when your burst is ready. Which, in a perfect world, would be one delayed damage ability one ultimate with a stun attached and one execute. If it’s AoE all the better. If your target is otherwise occupied all the better.

You get in and get out. When your burst isn’t ready you’re mostly… wait for it… doing nothing. Heavy attacking for resources, kiting someone that is trying to hit you, keeping your buffs and HoTs up, and y’know, helping your teammates if able. Now that seems like a lot of important stuff maybe, but I call it doing nothing, because it is times like this when my character may be bunny hopping around, circling the scrum, and it’s just a very low stress moment in general.

Mobility is king. And you don’t necessarily need a ton of it— you just need the ability to remove snares so that you don’t get bogged down in a kill-zone and ulti dumped. What makes it a kill zone? How many people are bogged down in it.

Also king? Not getting targeted. How do you not get targeted? Look tanky. Looking tanky and being tanky are two different things, as I alluded in the beginning. Have a reasonable amount of hp (28-32k or whatever,) so that every time you get scratched it doesn’t look like you just got chunked. Plus other players can see your health total even if you’re at full, and they will focus the easy one. If you get hit hard prioritize healing yourself before anything else. It doesn’t matter if you think “naw I’m fine I got this guy right where I want him,” because it isn’t necessarily that guy that’s gonna kill you. It might be the three players behind you trying to steal his kill. Anybody that’s 60% health or less is gonna attract attention. Everybody in the scrum will literally stop what they’re doing to attack you.

And this is the same mentality you must adopt.

Sleeping_OwI

@OBJnoob that was a lot of good advice, appreciated!

AndreNoir

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Sleeping_OwI wrote: »

I'm a pvE vet, made a pvp build recently (magDK, Trickery, BSW, Magma, trainee chest+Markyn) to finally get into pvp and have some fun and maybe do some fun stuff in the upcoming event... and it's just constant ass whooping. Every battleground match, there's a full group of organized strong players going around killing everything in sight. I can't even when make a dent on them 1v1, let alone if they're more. And believe me I'm not exaggerating, out of every 5 matches, 4 were like this, it's so frequent and unrewarding. There was only 1 match which was better balanced and half fun.

Is it always supposed to be like this? Beginners just get their ass kicked constantly until maybe they get better after a long time? I wish there was a place or mode where I could fight players in my own skill level, not be put against pvp gods and go 0-10 at the end of most matches. How are you supposed to learn anything when you die under 5 seconds no matter what you do or how much you try?

Just to be clear and summarize, I dont mind dying and losing, I know it's part of the process. It's constantly being put against groups and players that are waay better than me that makes it unfair, unfun and frustrating. I feel like I'm wasting my time trying to get into Eso's pvp when almost every match is frustarting and unrewarding like this..

You said the reason I put in bold, BG system is garbage, come to Cyrodiil.

Cyrodiil sucks unless you enjoy wasting time riding from keep to keep. Imperial City is the best pvp zone.

IC outside an event is just "survive nb's gank" simulator with a portion of "deal with fotm builds"

endgamesmug

I haven't pvped for a long time maybe 4 years or so, i thought well ill get something to 10 and jump in under 50 cyrodil and have a go. Well its got even sillier than i remember from back then, guys running around with gold gear and monster sets 😆. What a crackup anyway its the way it goes, I can see how some would wonder why they're bothering going in there.

Supershutze

Heal meta.

Heal meta turns what should be a fun game into some of the most cancerous experiences a new player could ever have.

I *like* pvp, and I'm not new to it, but heal meta has gotten so ridiculously, horrendously bad that for the first time ever I'm not taking part in the event: I get my tickets and then leave.

The problem new players face isn't losing; I imagine most new players expect to lose. That's normal.

The problem is that new players are thrust into situations where they feel like they have no chance, where they could never have a chance.

It's not that their best efforts wasn't enough; it's that their best efforts had no effect **WHATSOEVER**.

I don't think I need to explain just how incredibly unfun this is.

Heal meta is also the root cause of the 1vX conga lines, the tank metas, and the unkillable sweaty cheese builds, and the ball group cross-healing.

So what exactly is heal meta, and how do we fix it?

Heal meta is the result of two major problems.

Problem 1: Healing scales off the same stats that damage does, meaning that if you build for damage, you get healing for free.

Now, I really hope I don't have to explain why in a game with tank/dps/healer roles having heals and dps rely on the same stats is problematic; this is a problem is pve as well; healers are essentially unneeded in all but the hardest content.

Problem 2: There is no real counter for healing.

There are a bunch of ways to reduce incoming damage; blocking, buffs, sets, and straightforward armour, but there's only 3 ways to reduce healing; major defile, which is really weak, minor defile, which is even weaker, and a single set that is so incredibly useless it might as well not exist(I have never once seen anyone using it).

So how do we fix heal meta?

Problem 1 would be fixed if players building for damage didn't get heals as a consequence of that. I don't exactly know how we could go about doing this without completely rebuilding the relevant systems.

Problem 2 would be fixed if we got some actual counters for heals.

In fact, a lot of the balance problems would either go away or be reduced if we got some real hard counters, a hard counter being any counter that is so powerful that no amount of skill can overcome it.

Too much healing going on? What about a set that applies a status effect that prevents healing entirely? Or reverses the effects...

Too many gankers? Improve the effectiveness of anti-stealth skills. Add sets that prevent stealth within a certain radius.

Too many tanks? Hrothgar says hi.

birdik

Try Gw 2, lol

Udrath

Because there are not many players beginning pvp. So a lot people have a pretty good grasp of PvP, some way more than others. Gotta learn what you can block, how to fight and heal at the same time, know what builds are meta, positioning. It’s a lot to learn.... took me about a year to get basic knowledge and that’s by playing every class and duelling a ton. Good luck

Vetixio

Everyone who PvPs was new to PvP once, find a group or guild in zone, despite what people may say there are plenty of nice players out there in Cyrodiil who will help you learn to PvP and have fun!

Amottica

PvP is something that always challenges a player's skill level (in a particular way) without having different levels for a beginner to an advanced player outside of a quasi MMR setting that is used in BGs. Even in BGs it is not a perfect matching system.

In other words, you are tossed into the fire and have to learn quickly or die often. Cyrodiil is a "fun" PvP as you can just join a group and reap the benefits of running with a mass of players.

gariondavey

There is a massive skill potential in eso, so that results in difficulty for beginners. It also means time and effort can pay off, and that the combat system has depth.

DrNukenstein

Maintaining buffs, keeping your health up (yourself) and doing damage at the same time is extremely unintuitive without practice, and you can't get much practice when you're getting one shot.

I think the best things a new pvper can do for themselves, that took me hundreds of deaths to figure out are:

-One bar should be for defense, healing and utility, the other should be for doing damage with any utility you need to deliver your damage, and you should balance pool stats/health on both
-get at least four pieces of impen. It makes it feel like a different game, and you're going to get hit at some point. It's one of the defense boosts that costs the least damage.
-Buff before every fight, refresh your buffs when you can. I have best results when I try to keep around 10 seconds on each of my buffs. That way I don't have to buff if someone gets the jump on me. This mechanic might be going away soon
-you should have a focused offense. One spammable attack, a super attack and an execute is a good template. The rest of your slots should be for supporting that approach to offense, or flexing into a secondary role for your team (beware the latter)
-slot every defensive buff you can that won't cut into that focused offense. The more focused your offense is, the tankier you can be without investing in tank stats.
-get the full undaunted bonuses. 6% extra pool stats and health is the most affordable damage/defense/utility trade off on the table. 3/1/3, 2/3/2, and 1/5/1 are great armor loadouts for pvp listed from tankiest to damage dealiest.
-If you can afford them or have a bunch from logging in, use tri stat pots.
-if the set has the word "stack" in it, it's probably bad for pvp.
-And last of all, ain't none of us Superman. If you fight outnumbered against people that are around your skill level you will lose. Succesful 1vXing doesn't usually happen between one good player and x equally good players.