If The Sun Suddenly Disappeared From The World, Would Most People Notice?

psychotrip

I think Elder Scrolls is, at its heart – and Todd Howard says this all the time – if magic left Tamriel, no one would notice, because it's very mundane at its heart.

-Matt Firor & Rich Lambert Interview

The sun is a magical hole in reality left behind by an extradimensional magical being. It's also essential for crops to grow, and for life in general to persist.

Discuss.

LukosCreyden

I think he was speaking about magic specifically, not the sun. Of course, the sun and stars are what provide the world with magicka, but if that magicka could no longer be used for spells, most people would apparently not notice.

Everyone would very quickly notice the sun or stars closing up.

psychotrip

LukosCreyden wrote: »

I think he was speaking about magic specifically, not the sun. Of course, the sun and stars are what provide the world with magicka, but if that magicka could no longer be used for spells, most people would apparently not notice.

Everyone would very quickly notice the sun or stars closing up.

He said what he said. He could've qualified it if he wanted.

Its an insane statement on its face, and a complete about face from previous entries in the series.

Nirn is a world where gods walk among the people, where cultists can literally speak to their daedric lords through various means, where there's an alchemy shop next door to the wizard shop down the street from the mage's guild, where almost every trader has at least one enchanted item in their shop, where chapels magically bless those who donate, where restoration magic can heal grievous wounds and cure disease, where birthsigns give random people magical powers.

The fact that he didnt immediately think of the gigantic, magical elephant in the room that is essential to all life just further illustrates the issue. It's not even a partially coherant statement, and none of us should take it seriously.

Iselin

They would notice only if a celeb twitted about it.

VaranisArano

No, we'd find out about eight minutes later.

*science teacher finally reads the post and not just the title*

For one, it sounds like you've already made your mind up. I don't expect to change that since it's a ludicrous statement if taken literally given TES lore.

But since I don't think he meant to be ludicrous, I feel inclined to look at it in a less literal manner.

I think it's perhaps more applicable to take his statement as a caution against assuming that the high fantasy, high magic experience that our characters experience in gameplay is identical to the in-universe experience of commoners living in the world. Our experience is necessarily condensed, and so outliers have a much bigger impact on us.

For example, thinking of the singleplayer games, cities are enormously condensed. So of course there's an alchemy shop next to the wizards shop down the street from the Mages Guild...meanwhile there's one general merchant for the whole town and maybe two grocers. The ratios are all out of proportion to what the actual needs of a realistic population are. Therefore, we can't extrapolate from the in-game representation of magical effects and people to say how common magic is in the life of an average commoner. Magic is overrepresented by the nature of game compression and our adventuring, high magic lifestyle.

What we do see is that the average non-adventuring person on Tanriel has enough magicka to cast a simple cantrip their mother taught them, enough herb knowledge to make a basic potion, and maybe buys a potion, minorly enchanted aid, or blessed trinket to give them a little boost. Those average non-adventuring, non-shopkeeper NPCs are very, very underrepresented in the singleplayer games. Sensibly so, due to game limitations, but it doesn't do to forget that they make up the majority of any realistic population.

They'd notice if those things were gone, but they'd be in a good position to adapt to sudden lack of spells and magical effects.

psychotrip

VaranisArano wrote: »

No, we'd find out about eight minutes later.

*science teacher finally reads the post and not just the title*

For one, it sounds like you've already made your mind up. I don't expect to change that since it's a ludicrous statement if taken literally given TES lore.

But since I don't think he meant to be ludicrous, I feel inclined to look at it in a less literal manner.

I think it's perhaps more applicable to take his statement as a caution against assuming that the high fantasy, high magic experience that our characters experience in gameplay is identical to the in-universe experience of commoners living in the world. Our experience is necessarily condensed, and so outliers have a much bigger impact on us.

For example, thinking of the singleplayer games, cities are enormously condensed. So of course there's an alchemy shop next to the wizards shop down the street from the Mages Guild...meanwhile there's one general merchant for the whole town and maybe two grocers. The ratios are all out of proportion to what the actual needs of a realistic population are. Therefore, we can't extrapolate from the in-game representation of magical effects and people to say how common magic is in the life of an average commoner. Magic is overrepresented by the nature of game compression and our adventuring, high magic lifestyle.

What we do see is that the average non-adventuring person on Tanriel has enough magicka to cast a simple cantrip their mother taught them, enough herb knowledge to make a basic potion, and maybe buys a potion, minorly enchanted aid, or blessed trinket to give them a little boost. Those average non-adventuring, non-shopkeeper NPCs are very, very underrepresented in the singleplayer games. Sensibly so, due to game limitations, but it doesn't do to forget that they make up the majority of any realistic population.

They'd notice if those things were gone, but they'd be in a good position to adapt to sudden lack of spells and magical effects.

I suppose if you believe that, because the world is condensed, that magic is less prominent than what is shown in the games then I can see someone coming to this conclusion.

I guess I just dont really understand how your initial belief makes sense. Yes, the world is scaled down. Why does that inherently mean that magic is less common than what we're seeing? Even if things arent perfectly proportional, is "reality" truly so different from the world we experience in-game?

Before Todd made that statement, I never in a million years would've assumed that magic was so insignificant to the average person in Tamriel. People in previous games seem fully aware of magic and seem to interact with it casually. I was playing Oblivion the other day, and this innkeeper asked me to murder a necromancer hurting her business, and she acted like this was a completely normal thing to deal with. A threat to be sure, but more in the criminal sense. Am I the only one who saw it this way? Did everyone else know this was a low-magic universe all along?

A significant portion of the population can turn invisible every 24 hours. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, here.

Your statement toward the end about "normal" people interacting with magic in minor, casual ways is kind of my entire point? Magic is ubiquitous in Tamriel, in ways big and small.

No part of Todd's statement makes sense. I'm sure he didnt intend to be ludicrous, and I cant know his mind, but the statement itself is indeed ludicrous and shouldnt be used as proof or justification for anything.

Anyway, I'll let the rest you discuss this topic since my position is already obvious. I just noticed people still taking that quote seriously in another thread, so I wanted to see how it stands up to a little scrutiny. :P

DivineKitty

This is literally the Plot of Dawnguard, from Skyrim. Vampires want to blot out the sun, except if they did, literally all of Tamriel would band together to bring it back.

I guess it would be the same if Magic disappeared, most people would be angry and try to fix it, save maybe the Nords and Redguards, who don't use it that much.

Thevampirenight

psychotrip wrote: »

“If magic suddenly disappeared from the world, most people wouldn’t notice.” - Todd Howard

The sun is a magical hole in reality left behind by an extradimensional magical being. It's also essential for crops to grow, and for life in general to persist.

Discuss.

Okay, if the sun was gone, why wouldn't people notice?

psychotrip

Thevampirenight wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

“If magic suddenly disappeared from the world, most people wouldn’t notice.” - Todd Howard

The sun is a magical hole in reality left behind by an extradimensional magical being. It's also essential for crops to grow, and for life in general to persist.

Discuss.

Okay, if the sun was gone, why wouldn't people notice?

Because it's magic, and todd said if magic disappeared people wouldnt notice.

Ratzkifal

I am pretty sure Todd is right on that on average and for 4th era Skyrim specifically. Humans are not as magical as elves and they vastly outnumber them, so the average citizen of Tamriel (a human living in a human society) would not notice. Bretons would probably notice (at least if we are a little bit more creative for a second than ZOS has been with them). Imperials probably not as much because the magical Imperials remove themselves from the rest of the population to learn more about magic in their specialized magic schools, so the average citizen doesn't really interact with them anymore at that point - the Legion would definitely notice and there might be some economic ripple effects due to the magic schools disappearing.

All the elves would notice. Even the Bosmer, their trees would stop growing into house shapes. Even the Dunmer from other houses than Telvanni would notice due to a sudden power vacuum in the east of Morrowind.

Khajiit may notice or they may not. Hard to tell. Argonians would notice because they wouldn't be able to communicate with their trees anymore... I think... Maybe the Hist don't use magic for their communication.

psychotrip

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I am pretty sure Todd is right on that on average and for 4th era Skyrim specifically. Humans are not as magical as elves and they vastly outnumber them, so the average citizen of Tamriel (a human living in a human society) would not notice. Bretons would probably notice (at least if we are a little bit more creative for a second than ZOS has been with them). Imperials probably not as much because the magical Imperials remove themselves from the rest of the population to learn more about magic in their specialized magic schools, so the average citizen doesn't really interact with them anymore at that point - the Legion would definitely notice and there might be some economic ripple effects due to the magic schools disappearing.

All the elves would notice. Even the Bosmer, their trees would stop growing into house shapes. Even the Dunmer from other houses than Telvanni would notice due to a sudden power vacuum in the east of Morrowind.

Khajiit may notice or they may not. Hard to tell. Argonians would notice because they wouldn't be able to communicate with their trees anymore... I think... Maybe the Hist don't use magic for their communication.

Where was it stated he was talking about Skyrim or the 4th era? This quote was attributed to him when Summerset was announced, and it's apparently something he "often" says.

LukosCreyden

Okay, let's narrow things down. If magic- as in spells- disappeared, your average layman would likely not notice. If magicka, as in the energy form, disappeared, then yes everyone would notice; Aetherius would darken and the sun would effectively disappear.

If Todd was talking about spells, he may be correct. A lot of people would not notice the disappearance of magic. If he was talking about the energy form that is magicka, then he was incorrect. Remember, he is a Director and Producer, not a writer or loremaster. He is not the person I would go to for lore information.

psychotrip

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Okay, let's narrow things down. If magic- as in spells- disappeared, your average layman would likely not notice. If magicka, as in the energy form, disappeared, then yes everyone would notice; Aetherius would darken and the sun would effectively disappear.

If Todd was talking about spells, he may be correct. A lot of people would not notice the disappearance of magic. If he was talking about the energy form that is magicka, then he was incorrect. Remember, he is a Director and Producer, not a writer or loremaster. He is not the person I would go to for lore information.

I'm not sure I get why everyone is jumping through hoops to make this make sense? Did we all forget where the quote actually comes from? Because its a lot harder to spin it this way with the added context.

They used this quote as a response to people calling modern ES mundane and generic around the release of Summerset. Whether you agree with that opinion or not, their response was to use that quote as an explanation:

I think Elder Scrolls is, at its heart – and Todd Howard says this all the time – if magic left Tamriel, no one would notice, because it's very mundane at its heart.

Maybe I'm alone here but it seems very clear what they're trying to communicate here, even going as far as to call Tamriel "mundane". This isnt just about spells, or just humans. I dont get how you're coming to these conclusions based on the literal text and the context of when it was said.

Todd's apparent quote was used to justify lore decisions in ESO. It was about "magical" and "weird" aspects of the world in general. If it seems like the statement makes less sense now, then that's literally my entire point.

Edit: Also, how would people born under the sign of the shadow not realize that they cant turn invisible anymore? Apply this to any birthsign that gives people unique abilities. Is that not magic? Not a spell? None of this makes sense and I dont get why we treat it like it does.

Thevampirenight

psychotrip wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

“If magic suddenly disappeared from the world, most people wouldn’t notice.” - Todd Howard

The sun is a magical hole in reality left behind by an extradimensional magical being. It's also essential for crops to grow, and for life in general to persist.

Discuss.

Okay, if the sun was gone, why wouldn't people notice?

Because it's magic, and todd said if magic disappeared people wouldnt notice.

Magic yes, but the sun, oh that is impossible to hide that it disapeared, life would die, people would know something is up with the sun because its missing. Entire plot point of why Serana's mother didn't want that prophecy to suceed. Even the non magical would notice that. Non magical people would know if magic disapeared because then mages wouldn't be able to cast spells anymore and that would get out too. Yes most people would notice. Its impossible to hide that. Like its 100% million percent impossible to hide something like that.

psychotrip

Thevampirenight wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

“If magic suddenly disappeared from the world, most people wouldn’t notice.” - Todd Howard

The sun is a magical hole in reality left behind by an extradimensional magical being. It's also essential for crops to grow, and for life in general to persist.

Discuss.

Okay, if the sun was gone, why wouldn't people notice?

Because it's magic, and todd said if magic disappeared people wouldnt notice.

Magic yes, but the sun, oh that is impossible to hide that it disapeared, life would die, people would know something is up with the sun because its missing. Entire plot point of why Serana's mother didn't want that prophecy to suceed. Even the non magical would notice that. Non magical people would know if magic disapeared because then mages wouldn't be able to cast spells anymore and that would get out too. Yes most people would notice. Its impossible to hide that. Like its 100% million percent impossible to hide something like that.

This is exactly my point. Todd's quote is ludicrous and it shouldnt be used as a valid argument or a serious statement on the lore. Thank you.

VaranisArano

psychotrip wrote: »

I suppose if you believe that, because the world is condensed, that magic is less prominent than what is shown in the games then I can see someone coming to this conclusion.

I guess I just dont really understand how your starting premise makes sense. Yes, the world is scaled down. Why does that inherently mean that magic is less common than what we're seeing? Even if things arent perfectly proportional, is "reality" truly so different from the world we experience in-game?

Before Todd made that statement, I never in a million years would've assumed that magic was so insignificant to the average person in Tamriel. People in previous games seem fully aware of magic and seem to interact with it casually. I was playing Oblivion the other day, and this innkeeper asked me to murder a necromancer hurting her business, and she acted like this was a completely normal thing to deal with. A threat to be sure, but more in the criminal sense. Am I the only one who saw it this way? Did everyone know this was a low-magic universe all along?

A significant portion of the population can turn invisible every 24 hours. Magic is uniquitous in Tamriel.

Anyway, I'll let the rest you discuss this topic since my position is already obvious. I just noticed people still taking that quote seriously in another thread, so I wanted to see how it stands up to scrutiny. :P

I'll clarify what I mean by the difference between what we experience in game versus the in-universe reality, and then I'm going to go back to "can see when minds are already made up" mode. I'm not gonna try too hard to persuade anyone.

I think that the nature of game compression is that the ordinary, non-interesting, everyday, and nonexceptional stuff ends up chronically underrepresented. As a simple example, we all know that the Imperial City would be much, much larger than TES IV shows. We're missing hundreds of houses, workplaces, shops, and ordinary people who basically have zero impact on the story of our Adventurer.

So for our Hero, Tamriel certainly plays like a high magic universe, but the ordinary citizen might not interact with magic as often as the game makes it look like they do.

In a place like Whiterun, there's a blacksmith who sells enchanted goods, a general merchant with enchanted goods, an alchemist, a priest, and a court wizard. It looks like there's no getting away from magic, right? But we're missing the farrier who shods the horses, the blacksmith who makes the nails and tools, the cooper who makes the barrels, etc. All those ordinary people doing ordinary jobs don't exist in game, but they have to exist in universe for the world to make sense. Most of them might interact casually with magic in the sense I described where they can cast a little or purchase effects. They'd notice if magic spells and effects went away, but how they do their everyday job might not change that much. At the same time, their presence makes magic look a lot less pervasive.

So as players, we're really missing out on seeing the life of the average commoner truly represented. The few ordinary people that are shown in game are basically surrounded by the extraordinary and the unusual because that's where the story is and that's what the budget will allow.

Or for a more ubiquitous example: the town guards. Oh, they'd notice that nobody was burning down any buildings with destruction magic or there weren't any vampire raids lately, but they'd keep on guarding against mundane threats in mundane ways just the same. Even in Summerset, they know how to use ordinary detective methods to solve murders without immediately resorting to necromancy.

When we look at the entire world of Tamriel through the blinders of an adventurer strolling through the extraordinary world that's shown to us in the games, its very easy to forget what's being left out because its entirely mundane. And so I take Todd's statement as a (hyperbolic) caution to remember that the prevalence of the extraordinary in the games is not a 1 to 1 accurate representation of life in Tamriel, that the mundane is necessarily underrepresented due to game limitations, and that the majority of people do not live the same type of high magic life as our Hero.

And now I'll get back out of the way of the axe meeting the grindstone.

Ratzkifal

psychotrip wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I am pretty sure Todd is right on that on average and for 4th era Skyrim specifically. Humans are not as magical as elves and they vastly outnumber them, so the average citizen of Tamriel (a human living in a human society) would not notice. Bretons would probably notice (at least if we are a little bit more creative for a second than ZOS has been with them). Imperials probably not as much because the magical Imperials remove themselves from the rest of the population to learn more about magic in their specialized magic schools, so the average citizen doesn't really interact with them anymore at that point - the Legion would definitely notice and there might be some economic ripple effects due to the magic schools disappearing.

All the elves would notice. Even the Bosmer, their trees would stop growing into house shapes. Even the Dunmer from other houses than Telvanni would notice due to a sudden power vacuum in the east of Morrowind.

Khajiit may notice or they may not. Hard to tell. Argonians would notice because they wouldn't be able to communicate with their trees anymore... I think... Maybe the Hist don't use magic for their communication.

Where was it stated he was talking about Skyrim or the 4th era? This quote was attributed to him when Summerset was announced, and it's apparently something he "often" says.

I'm not sure. When was this said by him the first time anyway? I know we have a second-hand source of him supposedly saying that from the Summerset announcement, but he hasn't worked on Summerset as far as I know. So what did he work on? Skyrim and Oblivion. And Matt Firor, our source for this, has not worked on an Elder Scrolls game other than ESO, so I wouldn't take anything he says on the lore without a grain of salt. I'm pretty sure that statement is mostly applicable to Skyrim and Oblivion because that's what Todd has worked on and that's what we've been shown in these games. Morrowind was an eternity ago at this point. And the next game seems to be set in Hammerfell, so there this statement is likely also true still.
But I doubt Todd would still be saying this if they were making a Summerset game or went back to make a Morrowind game. He would probably say something about how amazing and sandboxy their new magic system is and that all of it just works, only to then underdeliver. But I doubt Todd is so unaware to say that the High Elves wouldn't notice if magic was gone.

About what Firor said, the High Elves have pig farmers too, yes, but I would say that an Altmer pig farmer uses a simple fire spell to light the stove and a calming spell to make the herding easier. None of that is game changing to make the Altmer so superior to the rest of the world that they would have taken over all of it by now, but it's a little bit of quality of life for them and they would notice if that went away. That's my take on it. The higher up you go in elven society the more it would be noticed if magic went away.

Eporem

how magicka is defined on UESP - was this definition made when the Elder Scrolls Online began - or has it been there for the previous games before ESO.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Magic

For me In the elder scrolls lore, I see how magic is defined, the Ayleids say from “Fire, life, from light, magic“. If I believe what the Ayleids believe and from the definition of magic on UESP that magicka is raw energy that comprises every spirit - is the energy of all living things - and it is this light source from where it comes - then I think all would notice if it disappeared since it is the energy of all living things and comprises every spirit - though maybe noticed in different degrees - certainly by those who experiment with the casting of spells by drawing on their own personal magicka reserve and most certainly by others who study how this raw energy can further be altered and to a lesser degree maybe by those that wish to not tap into this energy within. Their free will maybe, but that does not make it disappear - it is still there.

I can sorta understand why it would seem mundane because it is all around, a part of everything, but I cannot understand why it was said it would go unnoticed if it disappeared - this to me makes no sense - and I think why did noone question this remark of his - ask him what he meant by this, or if they did, explain this to those that play this game, since he is who he is.

psychotrip

Ratzkifal wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I am pretty sure Todd is right on that on average and for 4th era Skyrim specifically. Humans are not as magical as elves and they vastly outnumber them, so the average citizen of Tamriel (a human living in a human society) would not notice. Bretons would probably notice (at least if we are a little bit more creative for a second than ZOS has been with them). Imperials probably not as much because the magical Imperials remove themselves from the rest of the population to learn more about magic in their specialized magic schools, so the average citizen doesn't really interact with them anymore at that point - the Legion would definitely notice and there might be some economic ripple effects due to the magic schools disappearing.

All the elves would notice. Even the Bosmer, their trees would stop growing into house shapes. Even the Dunmer from other houses than Telvanni would notice due to a sudden power vacuum in the east of Morrowind.

Khajiit may notice or they may not. Hard to tell. Argonians would notice because they wouldn't be able to communicate with their trees anymore... I think... Maybe the Hist don't use magic for their communication.

Where was it stated he was talking about Skyrim or the 4th era? This quote was attributed to him when Summerset was announced, and it's apparently something he "often" says.

I'm not sure. When was this said by him the first time anyway? I know we have a second-hand source of him supposedly saying that from the Summerset announcement, but he hasn't worked on Summerset as far as I know. So what did he work on? Skyrim and Oblivion. And Matt Firor, our source for this, has not worked on an Elder Scrolls game other than ESO, so I wouldn't take anything he says on the lore without a grain of salt. I'm pretty sure that statement is mostly applicable to Skyrim and Oblivion because that's what Todd has worked on and that's what we've been shown in these games. Morrowind was an eternity ago at this point. And the next game seems to be set in Hammerfell, so there this statement is likely also true still.
But I doubt Todd would still be saying this if they were making a Summerset game or went back to make a Morrowind game. He would probably say something about how amazing and sandboxy their new magic system is and that all of it just works, only to then underdeliver. But I doubt Todd is so unaware to say that the High Elves wouldn't notice if magic was gone.

About what Firor said, the High Elves have pig farmers too, yes, but I would say that an Altmer pig farmer uses a simple fire spell to light the stove and a calming spell to make the herding easier. None of that is game changing to make the Altmer so superior to the rest of the world that they would have taken over all of it by now, but it's a little bit of quality of life for them and they would notice if that went away. That's my take on it. The higher up you go in elven society the more it would be noticed if magic went away.

So the pig farmers wouldnt notice the giant magical hole in reality vanishing? ;P

Jokes aside, I 100% agree that an Altmer farmer SHOULD know some basic spells, but according to Firor and (if we take his word) Todd Howard, that's explicitly NOT the case. It's stupid, right?

And to be clear, he didnt say Cyrodiil, he didnt say Skyrim, he didnt say human provinces. He said TAMRIEL. I still dont get why people think they can narrow it down further when he explictly tells us he's talking about the entire continent.

What about their birthsigns? We keep forgetting that everyone in tamriel is magically affected by the stars they were born under. How would someone born under the serpent not realize they cant poison people anymore? How could a child born under the shadow not realize they've lost their ability to go invisible during hide and seek?

His statement falls apart under the slightest scrutiny, and thats why I keep bringing up the sun. It's absurd from the ground up, and it was either a desperate excuse to justify executive decisions, or neither Matt nor Todd understand the basics of the universe they helped build.

I refuse to assume the latter.

Ratzkifal

psychotrip wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I am pretty sure Todd is right on that on average and for 4th era Skyrim specifically. Humans are not as magical as elves and they vastly outnumber them, so the average citizen of Tamriel (a human living in a human society) would not notice. Bretons would probably notice (at least if we are a little bit more creative for a second than ZOS has been with them). Imperials probably not as much because the magical Imperials remove themselves from the rest of the population to learn more about magic in their specialized magic schools, so the average citizen doesn't really interact with them anymore at that point - the Legion would definitely notice and there might be some economic ripple effects due to the magic schools disappearing.

All the elves would notice. Even the Bosmer, their trees would stop growing into house shapes. Even the Dunmer from other houses than Telvanni would notice due to a sudden power vacuum in the east of Morrowind.

Khajiit may notice or they may not. Hard to tell. Argonians would notice because they wouldn't be able to communicate with their trees anymore... I think... Maybe the Hist don't use magic for their communication.

Where was it stated he was talking about Skyrim or the 4th era? This quote was attributed to him when Summerset was announced, and it's apparently something he "often" says.

I'm not sure. When was this said by him the first time anyway? I know we have a second-hand source of him supposedly saying that from the Summerset announcement, but he hasn't worked on Summerset as far as I know. So what did he work on? Skyrim and Oblivion. And Matt Firor, our source for this, has not worked on an Elder Scrolls game other than ESO, so I wouldn't take anything he says on the lore without a grain of salt. I'm pretty sure that statement is mostly applicable to Skyrim and Oblivion because that's what Todd has worked on and that's what we've been shown in these games. Morrowind was an eternity ago at this point. And the next game seems to be set in Hammerfell, so there this statement is likely also true still.
But I doubt Todd would still be saying this if they were making a Summerset game or went back to make a Morrowind game. He would probably say something about how amazing and sandboxy their new magic system is and that all of it just works, only to then underdeliver. But I doubt Todd is so unaware to say that the High Elves wouldn't notice if magic was gone.

About what Firor said, the High Elves have pig farmers too, yes, but I would say that an Altmer pig farmer uses a simple fire spell to light the stove and a calming spell to make the herding easier. None of that is game changing to make the Altmer so superior to the rest of the world that they would have taken over all of it by now, but it's a little bit of quality of life for them and they would notice if that went away. That's my take on it. The higher up you go in elven society the more it would be noticed if magic went away.

So the pig farmers wouldnt notice the giant magical hole in reality vanishing? ;P

Jokes aside, I 100% agree that an Altmer farmer SHOULD know some basic spells, but according to Firor and (if we take his word) Todd Howard, that's explicitly NOT the case. It's stupid, right?

And to be clear, he didnt say Cyrodiil, he didnt say Skyrim, he didnt say human provinces. He said TAMRIEL. I still dont get why people think they can narrow it down further when he explictly tells us he's talking about the entire continent.

What about their birthsigns? We keep forgetting that everyone in tamriel is magically affected by the stars they were born under. How would someone born under the serpent not realize they cant poison people anymore? How could a child born under the shadow not realize they've lost their ability to go invisible during hide and seek?

His statement falls apart under the slightest scrutiny, and thats why I keep bringing up the sun. It's absurd from the ground up, and it was either a desperate excuse to justify executive decisions, or neither Matt nor Todd understand the basics of the universe they helped build.

I refuse to assume the latter.

I could make up some excuses for that. To get his people into that mindset while creating Oblivion and Skyrim, so they don't go too overboard with the crazy high fantasy stuff perhaps. So the use of "Tamriel" could be hyperbole. But it's also clear that until we actually visit a place, nothing is set in stone. Skyrim was described as a much different place in Morrowind and Oblivion. Cyrodiil was a lot different than what we heard too. So when Todd says "the world is mundane" now, by the time they release TES7 Summerset in 2062 or whenever that'll be, things might be a lot different than what they are saying now.

But yes, the statement is pretty easy to debunk and it's also a lot more fun if he is wrong on that. We don't need magic telephones and magic spaceships (even if the lore already has those) for magic to be everywhere. It's enough if there are simple spells with simple applications that make a tiny difference in the day to day life.
Take Star Trek for example. All of the things they had - touch screens, tabloids and hand-held computers before those were real, replicators. All of these things are totally fantastical but very mundane to the people of the Star Trek universe. If the townguards in High Rock were using magelight instead of torches we'd be in awe at how fantastical the place is despite it not actually being a big deal or even that impressive. The tiniest things can leave the biggest impressions.

kaushad

The contexts in which I've seen the quote cite tend to be about spells and enchantments rather than the natural, created world of TES. In Breathing Water, the sorcereress explains that the fish breathe water magically. The implication is that everything works by magic. So nobody would notice if magic disappeared, because nobody would be alive or even exist to witness it.

But magic is remarkably unexploited in Tamriel. The world is designed according to a fantasy, Renaissance model and mages are put into that world. It isn't particularly shaped by that abundance of magic. In other fantasy worlds, the effect magic is limited by the scarcity of people with magical potential. In most TES games, almost anybody can cast a modest spell. In Dragon Age, magic is heavily regulated. In TES, mages have no less freedom than other people.

So about one in twelve people can turn invisible? What are they doing with it? To its credit, TESIV said that such Argonians are trained to become assassins. That's an exceptional case of any social response to birth sign powers. We should also expect most mages to be born at certain times of the year. We hear nothing about this outside The Firmament.

psychotrip

Ratzkifal wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I am pretty sure Todd is right on that on average and for 4th era Skyrim specifically. Humans are not as magical as elves and they vastly outnumber them, so the average citizen of Tamriel (a human living in a human society) would not notice. Bretons would probably notice (at least if we are a little bit more creative for a second than ZOS has been with them). Imperials probably not as much because the magical Imperials remove themselves from the rest of the population to learn more about magic in their specialized magic schools, so the average citizen doesn't really interact with them anymore at that point - the Legion would definitely notice and there might be some economic ripple effects due to the magic schools disappearing.

All the elves would notice. Even the Bosmer, their trees would stop growing into house shapes. Even the Dunmer from other houses than Telvanni would notice due to a sudden power vacuum in the east of Morrowind.

Khajiit may notice or they may not. Hard to tell. Argonians would notice because they wouldn't be able to communicate with their trees anymore... I think... Maybe the Hist don't use magic for their communication.

Where was it stated he was talking about Skyrim or the 4th era? This quote was attributed to him when Summerset was announced, and it's apparently something he "often" says.

I'm not sure. When was this said by him the first time anyway? I know we have a second-hand source of him supposedly saying that from the Summerset announcement, but he hasn't worked on Summerset as far as I know. So what did he work on? Skyrim and Oblivion. And Matt Firor, our source for this, has not worked on an Elder Scrolls game other than ESO, so I wouldn't take anything he says on the lore without a grain of salt. I'm pretty sure that statement is mostly applicable to Skyrim and Oblivion because that's what Todd has worked on and that's what we've been shown in these games. Morrowind was an eternity ago at this point. And the next game seems to be set in Hammerfell, so there this statement is likely also true still.
But I doubt Todd would still be saying this if they were making a Summerset game or went back to make a Morrowind game. He would probably say something about how amazing and sandboxy their new magic system is and that all of it just works, only to then underdeliver. But I doubt Todd is so unaware to say that the High Elves wouldn't notice if magic was gone.

About what Firor said, the High Elves have pig farmers too, yes, but I would say that an Altmer pig farmer uses a simple fire spell to light the stove and a calming spell to make the herding easier. None of that is game changing to make the Altmer so superior to the rest of the world that they would have taken over all of it by now, but it's a little bit of quality of life for them and they would notice if that went away. That's my take on it. The higher up you go in elven society the more it would be noticed if magic went away.

So the pig farmers wouldnt notice the giant magical hole in reality vanishing? ;P

Jokes aside, I 100% agree that an Altmer farmer SHOULD know some basic spells, but according to Firor and (if we take his word) Todd Howard, that's explicitly NOT the case. It's stupid, right?

And to be clear, he didnt say Cyrodiil, he didnt say Skyrim, he didnt say human provinces. He said TAMRIEL. I still dont get why people think they can narrow it down further when he explictly tells us he's talking about the entire continent.

What about their birthsigns? We keep forgetting that everyone in tamriel is magically affected by the stars they were born under. How would someone born under the serpent not realize they cant poison people anymore? How could a child born under the shadow not realize they've lost their ability to go invisible during hide and seek?

His statement falls apart under the slightest scrutiny, and thats why I keep bringing up the sun. It's absurd from the ground up, and it was either a desperate excuse to justify executive decisions, or neither Matt nor Todd understand the basics of the universe they helped build.

I refuse to assume the latter.

I could make up some excuses for that.

Dont.

It doesnt even make sense in Oblivion. I brought up one example earlier with the Roxey Inn quest. I could name more tiny little examples but they add up to a pattern: magic is normal in Tamriel. Regular people interact with it in big and small ways all the time.

A significant portion of the population can turn invisible every 24 hours. How are we even entertaining this idea?

kaushad wrote: »

The contexts in which I've seen the quote cite tend to be about spells and enchantments rather than the natural, created world of TES. In Breathing Water, the sorcereress explains that the fish breathe water magically. The implication is that everything works by magic. So nobody would notice if magic disappeared, because nobody would be alive or even exist to witness it.

But magic is remarkably unexploited in Tamriel. The world is designed according to a fantasy, Renaissance model and mages are put into that world. It isn't particularly shaped by that abundance of magic. In other fantasy worlds, the effect magic is limited by the scarcity of people with magical potential. In most TES games, almost anybody can cast a modest spell. In Dragon Age, magic is heavily regulated. In TES, mages have no less freedom than other people.

So about one in twelve people can turn invisible? What are they doing with it? To its credit, TESIV said that such Argonians are trained to become assassins. That's an exceptional case of any social response to birth sign powers. We should also expect most mages to be born at certain times of the year. We hear nothing about this outside The Firmament.

Exactly! 1 in 12 people can casually turn invisible. 1 in 12 people can magically open locks. Nearly every dunmer can call upon the aid of their ancestors. Random people are born with magical powers, guys, unless we're honestly suggesting that these powers arent actually canon. And if that's the case, what the heck is the point of this fantasy setting if everything supernatural is just for the player and his enemies, and nothing else we see can be believed?

As for how unexploited magic is, well, that's literally a consequence of this mundane mindset infecting the setting since Oblivion released. Morrowind went through great lengths to show how the supernatural would affect society. Even Daggerfall showed just how much magic can affect society (warp in the west, anyone? Again, am I just crazy here?)

The original Pocket Guide to the empire goes into even more detail, but no one wants another rant on a lore bible that's long since been retconned.

But see, thats the point: there's a new vision for the franchise, and it directly contradicts with what we knew of it before. Todd's quote literally doesnt make sense from any angle unless you purposely try to warp his words or add qualifiers when he provided none.

Or, unless you assume that it's been a conscious choice to change the direction of the series, regardless of what came before.

VaranisArano

psychotrip wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I am pretty sure Todd is right on that on average and for 4th era Skyrim specifically. Humans are not as magical as elves and they vastly outnumber them, so the average citizen of Tamriel (a human living in a human society) would not notice. Bretons would probably notice (at least if we are a little bit more creative for a second than ZOS has been with them). Imperials probably not as much because the magical Imperials remove themselves from the rest of the population to learn more about magic in their specialized magic schools, so the average citizen doesn't really interact with them anymore at that point - the Legion would definitely notice and there might be some economic ripple effects due to the magic schools disappearing.

All the elves would notice. Even the Bosmer, their trees would stop growing into house shapes. Even the Dunmer from other houses than Telvanni would notice due to a sudden power vacuum in the east of Morrowind.

Khajiit may notice or they may not. Hard to tell. Argonians would notice because they wouldn't be able to communicate with their trees anymore... I think... Maybe the Hist don't use magic for their communication.

Where was it stated he was talking about Skyrim or the 4th era? This quote was attributed to him when Summerset was announced, and it's apparently something he "often" says.

I'm not sure. When was this said by him the first time anyway? I know we have a second-hand source of him supposedly saying that from the Summerset announcement, but he hasn't worked on Summerset as far as I know. So what did he work on? Skyrim and Oblivion. And Matt Firor, our source for this, has not worked on an Elder Scrolls game other than ESO, so I wouldn't take anything he says on the lore without a grain of salt. I'm pretty sure that statement is mostly applicable to Skyrim and Oblivion because that's what Todd has worked on and that's what we've been shown in these games. Morrowind was an eternity ago at this point. And the next game seems to be set in Hammerfell, so there this statement is likely also true still.
But I doubt Todd would still be saying this if they were making a Summerset game or went back to make a Morrowind game. He would probably say something about how amazing and sandboxy their new magic system is and that all of it just works, only to then underdeliver. But I doubt Todd is so unaware to say that the High Elves wouldn't notice if magic was gone.

About what Firor said, the High Elves have pig farmers too, yes, but I would say that an Altmer pig farmer uses a simple fire spell to light the stove and a calming spell to make the herding easier. None of that is game changing to make the Altmer so superior to the rest of the world that they would have taken over all of it by now, but it's a little bit of quality of life for them and they would notice if that went away. That's my take on it. The higher up you go in elven society the more it would be noticed if magic went away.

So the pig farmers wouldnt notice the giant magical hole in reality vanishing? ;P

Jokes aside, I 100% agree that an Altmer farmer SHOULD know some basic spells, but according to Firor and (if we take his word) Todd Howard, that's explicitly NOT the case. It's stupid, right?

And to be clear, he didnt say Cyrodiil, he didnt say Skyrim, he didnt say human provinces. He said TAMRIEL. I still dont get why people think they can narrow it down further when he explictly tells us he's talking about the entire continent.

What about their birthsigns? We keep forgetting that everyone in tamriel is magically affected by the stars they were born under. How would someone born under the serpent not realize they cant poison people anymore? How could a child born under the shadow not realize they've lost their ability to go invisible during hide and seek?

His statement falls apart under the slightest scrutiny, and thats why I keep bringing up the sun. It's absurd from the ground up, and it was either a desperate excuse to justify executive decisions, or neither Matt nor Todd understand the basics of the universe they helped build.

I refuse to assume the latter.

I could make up some excuses for that.

Dont.

It doesnt even make sense in Oblivion. I brought up one example earlier with the Roxey Inn quest. I could name more tiny little examples but they add up to a pattern: magic is normal in Tamriel. Regular people interact with it in big and small ways all the time.

A significant portion of the population can turn invisible every 24 hours. How are we even entertaining this idea?

kaushad wrote: »

The contexts in which I've seen the quote cite tend to be about spells and enchantments rather than the natural, created world of TES. In Breathing Water, the sorcereress explains that the fish breathe water magically. The implication is that everything works by magic. So nobody would notice if magic disappeared, because nobody would be alive or even exist to witness it.

But magic is remarkably unexploited in Tamriel. The world is designed according to a fantasy, Renaissance model and mages are put into that world. It isn't particularly shaped by that abundance of magic. In other fantasy worlds, the effect magic is limited by the scarcity of people with magical potential. In most TES games, almost anybody can cast a modest spell. In Dragon Age, magic is heavily regulated. In TES, mages have no less freedom than other people.

So about one in twelve people can turn invisible? What are they doing with it? To its credit, TESIV said that such Argonians are trained to become assassins. That's an exceptional case of any social response to birth sign powers. We should also expect most mages to be born at certain times of the year. We hear nothing about this outside The Firmament.

Exactly! 1 in 12 people can casually turn invisible. 1 in 12 people can magically open locks. Nearly every dunmer can call upon the aid of their ancestors. Random people are born with magical powers, guys, unless we're honestly suggesting that these powers arent actually canon. And if that's the case, what the heck is the point of this fantasy setting if everything supernatural is just for the player and his enemies, and nothing else we see can be believed?

As for how unexploited magic is, well, that's literally a consequence of this mundane mindset infecting the setting since Oblivion released. Morrowind went through great lengths to show how the supernatural would affect society. Even Daggerfall showed just how much magic can affect society (warp in the west, anyone? Again, am I just crazy here?)

The original Pocket Guide to the empire goes into even more detail, but no one wants another rant on a lore bible that's long since been retconned.

But see, thats the point: there's a new vision for the franchise, and it directly contradicts with what we knew of it before. Todd's quote literally doesnt make sense from any angle unless you purposely try to warp his words or add qualifiers when he provided none.

Or, unless you realize that it's been a conscious choice to change the direction of the series, regardless of what came before.

So what if there has been a deliberate conscious choice to change the direction of the series?

If you are right and there has been, then you have to realize that it's a done deal. The battle was over before you knew there was a fight.

Bethesda owns the series, not the fans. And frankly they can point to the success of Oblivion (which was far more mainstream than Morrowind, no matter how much of cult following TES 3 has), the stunning success that Skyrim enjoys even now, and yes, the continuing success of ESO to support their current direction.

Todd Howard, ludicrous statements or not, has more authority over the direction of Tamriel than you or I ever will. There is zero chance that ZOS writers and graphic designers are going to buck Bethesda and strike out on their own just because a few fans on the forums beg them to. We can stand athwart the tide yelling "Stop!" and the waves will wash up our ankles anyway.

So if you want to know why people take that statement seriously? If you're right, and Todd Howard meant it literally, and that's the direction that Bethesda wants to take the franchise, then it's absolutely serious...and we have zero chance of persuading them to change that vision for their own franchise.

They own it. We don't. They're the ones developing the next game. We aren't. The only choice we have is whether or not we'll buy it or whether we'll be one of the (I say this lovingly) Morroboomers grumbling in the corner about how Oblivion ruined the series.

I think I get the point you're trying to make here, but if you're right, the end game is not going to be that Todd Howard, Bethesda, and ZOS realize the error of their ways and give you the high-magic experience you want. They are going to follow their rather more mundane vision for the franchise they own, they're going to sell it to a ton of players, and they're going to make bank on the Anniversary Editions.

I won't tell you not to share your opinion but I don't share your optimism that doing so is going to make a difference.



Edited to add because wow I sound like I really downer here. I actually hope you aren't right. Yeah, Bethesda and ZOS don't seem inclined to create another exotic TES 3 style game. But also, they don't seem inclined to go whole hog and create a world where Todd Howard's comment is literally true. Sure, Summerset was more mundane than fans of the old Altmer lore were hoping for, but as presented in game it's a long shot from a society that wouldn't notice if magic vanished. There's a middle ground, and their "new direction" seems to be very much in the same mode as Oblivion. Magic is common, but it's not the games have ever really explored the impact of birthsigns, etc.

psychotrip

VaranisArano wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I am pretty sure Todd is right on that on average and for 4th era Skyrim specifically. Humans are not as magical as elves and they vastly outnumber them, so the average citizen of Tamriel (a human living in a human society) would not notice. Bretons would probably notice (at least if we are a little bit more creative for a second than ZOS has been with them). Imperials probably not as much because the magical Imperials remove themselves from the rest of the population to learn more about magic in their specialized magic schools, so the average citizen doesn't really interact with them anymore at that point - the Legion would definitely notice and there might be some economic ripple effects due to the magic schools disappearing.

All the elves would notice. Even the Bosmer, their trees would stop growing into house shapes. Even the Dunmer from other houses than Telvanni would notice due to a sudden power vacuum in the east of Morrowind.

Khajiit may notice or they may not. Hard to tell. Argonians would notice because they wouldn't be able to communicate with their trees anymore... I think... Maybe the Hist don't use magic for their communication.

Where was it stated he was talking about Skyrim or the 4th era? This quote was attributed to him when Summerset was announced, and it's apparently something he "often" says.

I'm not sure. When was this said by him the first time anyway? I know we have a second-hand source of him supposedly saying that from the Summerset announcement, but he hasn't worked on Summerset as far as I know. So what did he work on? Skyrim and Oblivion. And Matt Firor, our source for this, has not worked on an Elder Scrolls game other than ESO, so I wouldn't take anything he says on the lore without a grain of salt. I'm pretty sure that statement is mostly applicable to Skyrim and Oblivion because that's what Todd has worked on and that's what we've been shown in these games. Morrowind was an eternity ago at this point. And the next game seems to be set in Hammerfell, so there this statement is likely also true still.
But I doubt Todd would still be saying this if they were making a Summerset game or went back to make a Morrowind game. He would probably say something about how amazing and sandboxy their new magic system is and that all of it just works, only to then underdeliver. But I doubt Todd is so unaware to say that the High Elves wouldn't notice if magic was gone.

About what Firor said, the High Elves have pig farmers too, yes, but I would say that an Altmer pig farmer uses a simple fire spell to light the stove and a calming spell to make the herding easier. None of that is game changing to make the Altmer so superior to the rest of the world that they would have taken over all of it by now, but it's a little bit of quality of life for them and they would notice if that went away. That's my take on it. The higher up you go in elven society the more it would be noticed if magic went away.

So the pig farmers wouldnt notice the giant magical hole in reality vanishing? ;P

Jokes aside, I 100% agree that an Altmer farmer SHOULD know some basic spells, but according to Firor and (if we take his word) Todd Howard, that's explicitly NOT the case. It's stupid, right?

And to be clear, he didnt say Cyrodiil, he didnt say Skyrim, he didnt say human provinces. He said TAMRIEL. I still dont get why people think they can narrow it down further when he explictly tells us he's talking about the entire continent.

What about their birthsigns? We keep forgetting that everyone in tamriel is magically affected by the stars they were born under. How would someone born under the serpent not realize they cant poison people anymore? How could a child born under the shadow not realize they've lost their ability to go invisible during hide and seek?

His statement falls apart under the slightest scrutiny, and thats why I keep bringing up the sun. It's absurd from the ground up, and it was either a desperate excuse to justify executive decisions, or neither Matt nor Todd understand the basics of the universe they helped build.

I refuse to assume the latter.

I could make up some excuses for that.

Dont.

It doesnt even make sense in Oblivion. I brought up one example earlier with the Roxey Inn quest. I could name more tiny little examples but they add up to a pattern: magic is normal in Tamriel. Regular people interact with it in big and small ways all the time.

A significant portion of the population can turn invisible every 24 hours. How are we even entertaining this idea?

kaushad wrote: »

The contexts in which I've seen the quote cite tend to be about spells and enchantments rather than the natural, created world of TES. In Breathing Water, the sorcereress explains that the fish breathe water magically. The implication is that everything works by magic. So nobody would notice if magic disappeared, because nobody would be alive or even exist to witness it.

But magic is remarkably unexploited in Tamriel. The world is designed according to a fantasy, Renaissance model and mages are put into that world. It isn't particularly shaped by that abundance of magic. In other fantasy worlds, the effect magic is limited by the scarcity of people with magical potential. In most TES games, almost anybody can cast a modest spell. In Dragon Age, magic is heavily regulated. In TES, mages have no less freedom than other people.

So about one in twelve people can turn invisible? What are they doing with it? To its credit, TESIV said that such Argonians are trained to become assassins. That's an exceptional case of any social response to birth sign powers. We should also expect most mages to be born at certain times of the year. We hear nothing about this outside The Firmament.

Exactly! 1 in 12 people can casually turn invisible. 1 in 12 people can magically open locks. Nearly every dunmer can call upon the aid of their ancestors. Random people are born with magical powers, guys, unless we're honestly suggesting that these powers arent actually canon. And if that's the case, what the heck is the point of this fantasy setting if everything supernatural is just for the player and his enemies, and nothing else we see can be believed?

As for how unexploited magic is, well, that's literally a consequence of this mundane mindset infecting the setting since Oblivion released. Morrowind went through great lengths to show how the supernatural would affect society. Even Daggerfall showed just how much magic can affect society (warp in the west, anyone? Again, am I just crazy here?)

The original Pocket Guide to the empire goes into even more detail, but no one wants another rant on a lore bible that's long since been retconned.

But see, thats the point: there's a new vision for the franchise, and it directly contradicts with what we knew of it before. Todd's quote literally doesnt make sense from any angle unless you purposely try to warp his words or add qualifiers when he provided none.

Or, unless you realize that it's been a conscious choice to change the direction of the series, regardless of what came before.

So what if there has been a deliberate conscious choice to change the direction of the series?

If you are right and there has been, then you have to realize that it's a done deal. The battle was over before you knew there was a fight.

Bethesda owns the series, not the fans. And frankly they can point to the success of Oblivion (which was far more mainstream than Morrowind, no matter how much of cult following TES 3 has), the stunning success that Skyrim enjoys even now, and yes, the continuing success of ESO to support their current direction.

Todd Howard, ludicrous statements or not, has more authority over the direction of Tamriel than you or I ever will. There is zero chance that ZOS writers and graphic designers are going to buck Bethesda and strike out on their own just because a few fans on the forums beg them to. We can stand athwart the tide yelling "Stop!" and the waves will wash up our ankles anyway.

So if you want to know why people take that statement seriously? If you're right, and Todd Howard meant it literally, and that's the direction that Bethesda wants to take the franchise, then it's absolutely serious...and we have zero chance of persuading them to change that vision for their own franchise.

They own it. We don't. They're the ones developing the next game. We aren't. The only choice we have is whether or not we'll buy it or whether we'll be one of the (I say this lovingly) Morroboomers grumbling in the corner about how Oblivion ruined the series.

I think I get the point you're trying to make here, but if you're right, the end game is not going to be that Todd Howard, Bethesda, and ZOS realize the error of their ways and give you the high-magic experience you want. They are going to follow their rather more mundane vision for the franchise they own, they're going to sell it to a ton of players, and they're going to make bank on the Anniversary Editions.

I won't tell you not to share your opinion but I don't share your optimism that doing so is going to make a difference.

Mostly just wanted to make sure we're all on the same page there. Like I said, I made this thread because I see people using that quote as though it makes sense in any way, and that it doesnt directly contradict the universe as we experience it. Hopefully enough people have demonstrated how silly it is by now.

VaranisArano

psychotrip wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I am pretty sure Todd is right on that on average and for 4th era Skyrim specifically. Humans are not as magical as elves and they vastly outnumber them, so the average citizen of Tamriel (a human living in a human society) would not notice. Bretons would probably notice (at least if we are a little bit more creative for a second than ZOS has been with them). Imperials probably not as much because the magical Imperials remove themselves from the rest of the population to learn more about magic in their specialized magic schools, so the average citizen doesn't really interact with them anymore at that point - the Legion would definitely notice and there might be some economic ripple effects due to the magic schools disappearing.

All the elves would notice. Even the Bosmer, their trees would stop growing into house shapes. Even the Dunmer from other houses than Telvanni would notice due to a sudden power vacuum in the east of Morrowind.

Khajiit may notice or they may not. Hard to tell. Argonians would notice because they wouldn't be able to communicate with their trees anymore... I think... Maybe the Hist don't use magic for their communication.

Where was it stated he was talking about Skyrim or the 4th era? This quote was attributed to him when Summerset was announced, and it's apparently something he "often" says.

I'm not sure. When was this said by him the first time anyway? I know we have a second-hand source of him supposedly saying that from the Summerset announcement, but he hasn't worked on Summerset as far as I know. So what did he work on? Skyrim and Oblivion. And Matt Firor, our source for this, has not worked on an Elder Scrolls game other than ESO, so I wouldn't take anything he says on the lore without a grain of salt. I'm pretty sure that statement is mostly applicable to Skyrim and Oblivion because that's what Todd has worked on and that's what we've been shown in these games. Morrowind was an eternity ago at this point. And the next game seems to be set in Hammerfell, so there this statement is likely also true still.
But I doubt Todd would still be saying this if they were making a Summerset game or went back to make a Morrowind game. He would probably say something about how amazing and sandboxy their new magic system is and that all of it just works, only to then underdeliver. But I doubt Todd is so unaware to say that the High Elves wouldn't notice if magic was gone.

About what Firor said, the High Elves have pig farmers too, yes, but I would say that an Altmer pig farmer uses a simple fire spell to light the stove and a calming spell to make the herding easier. None of that is game changing to make the Altmer so superior to the rest of the world that they would have taken over all of it by now, but it's a little bit of quality of life for them and they would notice if that went away. That's my take on it. The higher up you go in elven society the more it would be noticed if magic went away.

So the pig farmers wouldnt notice the giant magical hole in reality vanishing? ;P

Jokes aside, I 100% agree that an Altmer farmer SHOULD know some basic spells, but according to Firor and (if we take his word) Todd Howard, that's explicitly NOT the case. It's stupid, right?

And to be clear, he didnt say Cyrodiil, he didnt say Skyrim, he didnt say human provinces. He said TAMRIEL. I still dont get why people think they can narrow it down further when he explictly tells us he's talking about the entire continent.

What about their birthsigns? We keep forgetting that everyone in tamriel is magically affected by the stars they were born under. How would someone born under the serpent not realize they cant poison people anymore? How could a child born under the shadow not realize they've lost their ability to go invisible during hide and seek?

His statement falls apart under the slightest scrutiny, and thats why I keep bringing up the sun. It's absurd from the ground up, and it was either a desperate excuse to justify executive decisions, or neither Matt nor Todd understand the basics of the universe they helped build.

I refuse to assume the latter.

I could make up some excuses for that.

Dont.

It doesnt even make sense in Oblivion. I brought up one example earlier with the Roxey Inn quest. I could name more tiny little examples but they add up to a pattern: magic is normal in Tamriel. Regular people interact with it in big and small ways all the time.

A significant portion of the population can turn invisible every 24 hours. How are we even entertaining this idea?

kaushad wrote: »

The contexts in which I've seen the quote cite tend to be about spells and enchantments rather than the natural, created world of TES. In Breathing Water, the sorcereress explains that the fish breathe water magically. The implication is that everything works by magic. So nobody would notice if magic disappeared, because nobody would be alive or even exist to witness it.

But magic is remarkably unexploited in Tamriel. The world is designed according to a fantasy, Renaissance model and mages are put into that world. It isn't particularly shaped by that abundance of magic. In other fantasy worlds, the effect magic is limited by the scarcity of people with magical potential. In most TES games, almost anybody can cast a modest spell. In Dragon Age, magic is heavily regulated. In TES, mages have no less freedom than other people.

So about one in twelve people can turn invisible? What are they doing with it? To its credit, TESIV said that such Argonians are trained to become assassins. That's an exceptional case of any social response to birth sign powers. We should also expect most mages to be born at certain times of the year. We hear nothing about this outside The Firmament.

Exactly! 1 in 12 people can casually turn invisible. 1 in 12 people can magically open locks. Nearly every dunmer can call upon the aid of their ancestors. Random people are born with magical powers, guys, unless we're honestly suggesting that these powers arent actually canon. And if that's the case, what the heck is the point of this fantasy setting if everything supernatural is just for the player and his enemies, and nothing else we see can be believed?

As for how unexploited magic is, well, that's literally a consequence of this mundane mindset infecting the setting since Oblivion released. Morrowind went through great lengths to show how the supernatural would affect society. Even Daggerfall showed just how much magic can affect society (warp in the west, anyone? Again, am I just crazy here?)

The original Pocket Guide to the empire goes into even more detail, but no one wants another rant on a lore bible that's long since been retconned.

But see, thats the point: there's a new vision for the franchise, and it directly contradicts with what we knew of it before. Todd's quote literally doesnt make sense from any angle unless you purposely try to warp his words or add qualifiers when he provided none.

Or, unless you realize that it's been a conscious choice to change the direction of the series, regardless of what came before.

So what if there has been a deliberate conscious choice to change the direction of the series?

If you are right and there has been, then you have to realize that it's a done deal. The battle was over before you knew there was a fight.

Bethesda owns the series, not the fans. And frankly they can point to the success of Oblivion (which was far more mainstream than Morrowind, no matter how much of cult following TES 3 has), the stunning success that Skyrim enjoys even now, and yes, the continuing success of ESO to support their current direction.

Todd Howard, ludicrous statements or not, has more authority over the direction of Tamriel than you or I ever will. There is zero chance that ZOS writers and graphic designers are going to buck Bethesda and strike out on their own just because a few fans on the forums beg them to. We can stand athwart the tide yelling "Stop!" and the waves will wash up our ankles anyway.

So if you want to know why people take that statement seriously? If you're right, and Todd Howard meant it literally, and that's the direction that Bethesda wants to take the franchise, then it's absolutely serious...and we have zero chance of persuading them to change that vision for their own franchise.

They own it. We don't. They're the ones developing the next game. We aren't. The only choice we have is whether or not we'll buy it or whether we'll be one of the (I say this lovingly) Morroboomers grumbling in the corner about how Oblivion ruined the series.

I think I get the point you're trying to make here, but if you're right, the end game is not going to be that Todd Howard, Bethesda, and ZOS realize the error of their ways and give you the high-magic experience you want. They are going to follow their rather more mundane vision for the franchise they own, they're going to sell it to a ton of players, and they're going to make bank on the Anniversary Editions.

I won't tell you not to share your opinion but I don't share your optimism that doing so is going to make a difference.

Mostly just wanted to make sure we're all on the same page there. Like I said, I made this thread because I see people using that quote as though it makes sense in any way, and that it doesnt directly contradict the universe as we experience it. Hopefully enough people have demonstrated how silly it is by now.

Because I'm curious and you referenced it again, which thread was that in? I'm curious as to what folks were saying to take that statement in a non-hyperbolic fashion.

psychotrip

VaranisArano wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I am pretty sure Todd is right on that on average and for 4th era Skyrim specifically. Humans are not as magical as elves and they vastly outnumber them, so the average citizen of Tamriel (a human living in a human society) would not notice. Bretons would probably notice (at least if we are a little bit more creative for a second than ZOS has been with them). Imperials probably not as much because the magical Imperials remove themselves from the rest of the population to learn more about magic in their specialized magic schools, so the average citizen doesn't really interact with them anymore at that point - the Legion would definitely notice and there might be some economic ripple effects due to the magic schools disappearing.

All the elves would notice. Even the Bosmer, their trees would stop growing into house shapes. Even the Dunmer from other houses than Telvanni would notice due to a sudden power vacuum in the east of Morrowind.

Khajiit may notice or they may not. Hard to tell. Argonians would notice because they wouldn't be able to communicate with their trees anymore... I think... Maybe the Hist don't use magic for their communication.

Where was it stated he was talking about Skyrim or the 4th era? This quote was attributed to him when Summerset was announced, and it's apparently something he "often" says.

I'm not sure. When was this said by him the first time anyway? I know we have a second-hand source of him supposedly saying that from the Summerset announcement, but he hasn't worked on Summerset as far as I know. So what did he work on? Skyrim and Oblivion. And Matt Firor, our source for this, has not worked on an Elder Scrolls game other than ESO, so I wouldn't take anything he says on the lore without a grain of salt. I'm pretty sure that statement is mostly applicable to Skyrim and Oblivion because that's what Todd has worked on and that's what we've been shown in these games. Morrowind was an eternity ago at this point. And the next game seems to be set in Hammerfell, so there this statement is likely also true still.
But I doubt Todd would still be saying this if they were making a Summerset game or went back to make a Morrowind game. He would probably say something about how amazing and sandboxy their new magic system is and that all of it just works, only to then underdeliver. But I doubt Todd is so unaware to say that the High Elves wouldn't notice if magic was gone.

About what Firor said, the High Elves have pig farmers too, yes, but I would say that an Altmer pig farmer uses a simple fire spell to light the stove and a calming spell to make the herding easier. None of that is game changing to make the Altmer so superior to the rest of the world that they would have taken over all of it by now, but it's a little bit of quality of life for them and they would notice if that went away. That's my take on it. The higher up you go in elven society the more it would be noticed if magic went away.

So the pig farmers wouldnt notice the giant magical hole in reality vanishing? ;P

Jokes aside, I 100% agree that an Altmer farmer SHOULD know some basic spells, but according to Firor and (if we take his word) Todd Howard, that's explicitly NOT the case. It's stupid, right?

And to be clear, he didnt say Cyrodiil, he didnt say Skyrim, he didnt say human provinces. He said TAMRIEL. I still dont get why people think they can narrow it down further when he explictly tells us he's talking about the entire continent.

What about their birthsigns? We keep forgetting that everyone in tamriel is magically affected by the stars they were born under. How would someone born under the serpent not realize they cant poison people anymore? How could a child born under the shadow not realize they've lost their ability to go invisible during hide and seek?

His statement falls apart under the slightest scrutiny, and thats why I keep bringing up the sun. It's absurd from the ground up, and it was either a desperate excuse to justify executive decisions, or neither Matt nor Todd understand the basics of the universe they helped build.

I refuse to assume the latter.

I could make up some excuses for that.

Dont.

It doesnt even make sense in Oblivion. I brought up one example earlier with the Roxey Inn quest. I could name more tiny little examples but they add up to a pattern: magic is normal in Tamriel. Regular people interact with it in big and small ways all the time.

A significant portion of the population can turn invisible every 24 hours. How are we even entertaining this idea?

kaushad wrote: »

The contexts in which I've seen the quote cite tend to be about spells and enchantments rather than the natural, created world of TES. In Breathing Water, the sorcereress explains that the fish breathe water magically. The implication is that everything works by magic. So nobody would notice if magic disappeared, because nobody would be alive or even exist to witness it.

But magic is remarkably unexploited in Tamriel. The world is designed according to a fantasy, Renaissance model and mages are put into that world. It isn't particularly shaped by that abundance of magic. In other fantasy worlds, the effect magic is limited by the scarcity of people with magical potential. In most TES games, almost anybody can cast a modest spell. In Dragon Age, magic is heavily regulated. In TES, mages have no less freedom than other people.

So about one in twelve people can turn invisible? What are they doing with it? To its credit, TESIV said that such Argonians are trained to become assassins. That's an exceptional case of any social response to birth sign powers. We should also expect most mages to be born at certain times of the year. We hear nothing about this outside The Firmament.

Exactly! 1 in 12 people can casually turn invisible. 1 in 12 people can magically open locks. Nearly every dunmer can call upon the aid of their ancestors. Random people are born with magical powers, guys, unless we're honestly suggesting that these powers arent actually canon. And if that's the case, what the heck is the point of this fantasy setting if everything supernatural is just for the player and his enemies, and nothing else we see can be believed?

As for how unexploited magic is, well, that's literally a consequence of this mundane mindset infecting the setting since Oblivion released. Morrowind went through great lengths to show how the supernatural would affect society. Even Daggerfall showed just how much magic can affect society (warp in the west, anyone? Again, am I just crazy here?)

The original Pocket Guide to the empire goes into even more detail, but no one wants another rant on a lore bible that's long since been retconned.

But see, thats the point: there's a new vision for the franchise, and it directly contradicts with what we knew of it before. Todd's quote literally doesnt make sense from any angle unless you purposely try to warp his words or add qualifiers when he provided none.

Or, unless you realize that it's been a conscious choice to change the direction of the series, regardless of what came before.

So what if there has been a deliberate conscious choice to change the direction of the series?

If you are right and there has been, then you have to realize that it's a done deal. The battle was over before you knew there was a fight.

Bethesda owns the series, not the fans. And frankly they can point to the success of Oblivion (which was far more mainstream than Morrowind, no matter how much of cult following TES 3 has), the stunning success that Skyrim enjoys even now, and yes, the continuing success of ESO to support their current direction.

Todd Howard, ludicrous statements or not, has more authority over the direction of Tamriel than you or I ever will. There is zero chance that ZOS writers and graphic designers are going to buck Bethesda and strike out on their own just because a few fans on the forums beg them to. We can stand athwart the tide yelling "Stop!" and the waves will wash up our ankles anyway.

So if you want to know why people take that statement seriously? If you're right, and Todd Howard meant it literally, and that's the direction that Bethesda wants to take the franchise, then it's absolutely serious...and we have zero chance of persuading them to change that vision for their own franchise.

They own it. We don't. They're the ones developing the next game. We aren't. The only choice we have is whether or not we'll buy it or whether we'll be one of the (I say this lovingly) Morroboomers grumbling in the corner about how Oblivion ruined the series.

I think I get the point you're trying to make here, but if you're right, the end game is not going to be that Todd Howard, Bethesda, and ZOS realize the error of their ways and give you the high-magic experience you want. They are going to follow their rather more mundane vision for the franchise they own, they're going to sell it to a ton of players, and they're going to make bank on the Anniversary Editions.

I won't tell you not to share your opinion but I don't share your optimism that doing so is going to make a difference.

Mostly just wanted to make sure we're all on the same page there. Like I said, I made this thread because I see people using that quote as though it makes sense in any way, and that it doesnt directly contradict the universe as we experience it. Hopefully enough people have demonstrated how silly it is by now.

Because I'm curious and you referenced it again, which thread was that in? I'm curious as to what folks were saying to take that statement in a non-hyperbolic fashion.

It was mentioned in the thread on the high isle dlc. Coincidentally, that thread is near identical to the one I made on Summerset years ago.

I've seen it used in arguments on TESlore, in discord servers, pretty sure I've even seen it on gamefaqs arguments about Skyrim.

It's become a blunt object to use against any criticism of the ES universe, and it just got annoying enough for me to finally make another thread, just to prove how weak of an argument it really is.

kaushad

psychotrip wrote: »

As for how unexploited magic is, well, that's literally a consequence of this mundane mindset infecting the setting since Oblivion released. Morrowind went through great lengths to show how the supernatural would affect society. Even Daggerfall showed just how much magic can affect society (warp in the west, anyone? Again, am I just crazy here?)

I believe that the Warp in the West was introduced in Oblivion. Daggerfall's endings revolved around Numidium, but they didn't explain what it was in the detail that we'd get later and like a lot of cRPGs, it offered a range of endings without telling which one was canon.

chessalavakia_ESO

I think they've found that economically it works better to try to limit the magic in the world to things that don't have a significant impact, make the player character magical, and focus much of the lore on deep stuff to limit the actual gameplay implications but to still have lore.

Thus, you have a bunch of deep lore that continues in all of the games but, the worlds themselves have gradually become less unique. Magic has gone from being challenging to use in Morrowind to being at a place in ESO where virtually every player character is using it. Even if you try to make a non-magical character in ESO the quests will have you tossing magic when you interact with things.

psychotrip

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

I think they've found that economically it works better to try to limit the magic in the world to things that don't have a significant impact, make the player character magical, and focus much of the lore on deep stuff to limit the actual gameplay implications but to still have lore.

That's called bad worldbuilding.

VaranisArano

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

I think they've found that economically it works better to try to limit the magic in the world to things that don't have a significant impact, make the player character magical, and focus much of the lore on deep stuff to limit the actual gameplay implications but to still have lore.

Thus, you have a bunch of deep lore that continues in all of the games but, the worlds themselves have gradually become less unique. Magic has gone from being challenging to use in Morrowind to being at a place in ESO where virtually every player character is using it. Even if you try to make a non-magical character in ESO the quests will have you tossing magic when you interact with things.

Yeah, its "worldbuilding on a budget" is some senses. Like, when I write, I can go hogwild with the implications of the magic system in everyday life, but when it comes to actually depicting all that stuff on screen or in a game...sometimes it happens, like in TES 3 Morrowind. But that game is very much the odd one out in the series and arguably the odd one out in videogaming in general in that it presents a very alien, high magic culture in great and exotic detail. One reason that TES 3 could do that is that its not fully voice acted - the Devs didn't have to budget for all those lengthy descriptions of Vvardenfell culture. I don't think we'll see another game quite like it.

We also saw some of the limitations that ZOS has with depicting a high-magic society on stark display in Fargrave. I'm talking technical limitations here. Fargrave has a ton of magical effects and people around. In order to do it, ZOS made the city with a ton of segments, loading screens, long loading times, and disabled dueling. And that's not even interactive magic stuff, just stuff happening in the background. If they tried to do that with a big Chapter hub like Vivec or Alinor, players would absolutely feel the impact on their gaming experience. If I'm not questing there, I avoid Fargrave because of the many loading screens.

I think part of the issue for TES fans who prefer the old written lore to how locations were eventually depicted in the games is that issue of "budget." Writers don't have a budget. They've got an imagination. But when it comes to turning that written lore into a video game, there's a budget and a deadline and implications for future games down the line that have to be considered. So there's a lot of reasons to Game Devs to take the approach you talk about where the implications of the lore don't necessarily impact gameplay all that much and the full impact of magic on society is rarely explored.

I suspect that's why some of the older, extremely imaginative, written lore for TES has fallen by the wayside over the years as the Devs have moved from "This is lore we added to give flavor and depth to the background because we're years from really exploring this area in detail. Make it wacky, cool, and unique." to "Hey, we finally get to see what this area looks like! What can we do with $X budget, Y time, and Z direction from Bethesda?"

See also: Cyrodiil isn't a jungle.

psychotrip

VaranisArano wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

I think they've found that economically it works better to try to limit the magic in the world to things that don't have a significant impact, make the player character magical, and focus much of the lore on deep stuff to limit the actual gameplay implications but to still have lore.

Thus, you have a bunch of deep lore that continues in all of the games but, the worlds themselves have gradually become less unique. Magic has gone from being challenging to use in Morrowind to being at a place in ESO where virtually every player character is using it. Even if you try to make a non-magical character in ESO the quests will have you tossing magic when you interact with things.

Yeah, its "worldbuilding on a budget" is some senses. Like, when I write, I can go hogwild with the implications of the magic system in everyday life, but when it comes to actually depicting all that stuff on screen or in a game...sometimes it happens, like in TES 3 Morrowind. But that game is very much the odd one out in the series and arguably the odd one out in videogaming in general in that it presents a very alien, high magic culture in great and exotic detail. One reason that TES 3 could do that is that its not fully voice acted - the Devs didn't have to budget for all those lengthy descriptions of Vvardenfell culture. I don't think we'll see another game quite like it.

We also saw some of the limitations that ZOS has with depicting a high-magic society on stark display in Fargrave. I'm talking technical limitations here. Fargrave has a ton of magical effects and people around. In order to do it, ZOS made the city with a ton of segments, loading screens, long loading times, and disabled dueling. And that's not even interactive magic stuff, just stuff happening in the background. If they tried to do that with a big Chapter hub like Vivec or Alinor, players would absolutely feel the impact on their gaming experience. If I'm not questing there, I avoid Fargrave because of the many loading screens.

I think part of the issue for TES fans who prefer the old written lore to how locations were eventually depicted in the games is that issue of "budget." Writers don't have a budget. They've got an imagination. But when it comes to turning that written lore into a video game, there's a budget and a deadline and implications for future games down the line that have to be considered. So there's a lot of reasons to Game Devs to take the approach you talk about where the implications of the lore don't necessarily impact gameplay all that much and the full impact of magic on society is rarely explored.

I suspect that's why some of the older, extremely imaginative, written lore for TES has fallen by the wayside over the years as the Devs have moved from "This is lore we added to give flavor and depth to the background because we're years from really exploring this area in detail. Make it wacky, cool, and unique." to "Hey, we finally get to see what this area looks like! What can we do with $X budget, Y time, and Z direction from Bethesda?"

See also: Cyrodiil isn't a jungle.

I'll never understand the idea that these are budget restraints. Cyrodiil didnt change because of the budget. If they didnt have the technology to make a super dense jungle...just make it less dense? The Great Forest and Blackwood are dense enough. Just change the trees and the ambience? This argument makes zero sense.

Especially when you consider the bloated budgets of games these days, most of which is spent on inflated unessesary graphical fidelity (which ES games dont even have) and executive salaries, it should be obvious that these are choices being made, not requirements.

You proved my point here when you brought up Morrowind. That game is from 2002. They pulled it off. No excuses.

They choose where to place their resources, and those choices compromise the very things that set ES apart from any other generic fantasy world.