The Real Solution to Lowering the Skill Gap. Super Simple. Lets Make ESO Good Again TOGETHER

iPeriphery

*I'll keep this civil and straight to the point. There is no intention of bashing ZoS within this post just to make myself clear.

Lets start with what we can do to fix the game we all love.

Instead of gutting the game completely, the solution is very VERY simple.
So simple, that I don't understand why they HAVENT done it already????? It shouldn't take 8 years to figure this out.

First you start with Reverting the changes that made Animation Canceling Ultimates not possible, and then you add Bash Canceling viability back. Because those changes just Gutted the core combat mechanics that actually make the game fun and different from other MMO's out there.

You don't just take the CORE MECHANICS that make this game unique and differentiated from other MMO's (which is the only thing you've got going for your game) and just throw it in the trash. Whether they were intentionally supposed to be there or not is IRRELEVANT, they've been here for 8 years and made the game better than it would have been without them.

I mean... unless you're intentionally trying to kill your game; then by all means go ahead, that's your decision.

Secondly what you do is make A Tutorial that properly teaches new players how to Animation Cancel/Weave/Bash Cancel/Block Cancel/Dodge Cancel/Weapon Swap Cancel.

The ONLY SOLUTION to lowering the "Skill Gap", is by Players Learning how to, in MMO terms they say... "GIT GUD".

Making the game into a Hello Kitty Online braindead simplified Easiness isn't going to be fun for anyone in the Long or Short Term. If we wanted to play "spam the same skill while applying 50 DoT's Simulator", we could just go bash our heads against a tree IRL instead; because that would be way more entertaining.

No matter how "Hip" and "Inclusive" You want to be, you have to accept the reality that there is always going to be someone who excels at a skill over others. Save your virtue signaling for someone who cares, because that isn't going to make the game "better".

People aren't all the same, they have different levels of comprehension and that is totally fine. If we were all the same, the world would never get anything innovative done. Being stuck inside a vacuum of only the same few thoughts never accomplishes anything except a self-perpetuating cycle of delusion.

Stop trying to get rid of the Skill Gap, and try and provide the player base with the resources and tools they need to actually improve. What's the point of a game if you have 0 challenge and have everything handed to you?

It gets boring really quick playing any game with cheat codes on. Sure it's amusing at first, but it gets stale really quickly.

You know what to do now. The rest is in your hands ZoS. I can only hope you make the correct decision, because it would be a shame to see this game and all the work put into it be for naught when it inevitably dies from changes like what U35 proposes, alongside already awful unasked for changes in past updates.

Everything is cumulating to a boiling point, and it wont be long before the water boils over the pot into the burner.

iPeriphery

Before anyone even says anything let's just make sure we give Only Constructive Feedback for ZoS. And that's saying something coming from me; that just goes to show how desperate things have gotten.

Let's not Derail this thread and get it deleted. ZoS Asked for Constructive Feedback, and we should give it to them.

ZoS Determines the Fate of this Game. We only have a limited chance to get them to listen, and time is of the essence boi's.

Mr_Stach

iPeriphery wrote: »

Constructive Feedback for ZoS Only people. Let's not Derail this thread and get it deleted. ZoS Asked for Constructive Feedback, and we should give it to them.

ZoS Determines the Fate of this Game. We only have a limited chance to get them to listen, and time is of the essence boi's.

Well now you've done it, you've assumed people would come in and derail your post and argue, which is fair, it's like asking them to come in with the most baseless nonsense possible.

But you make good points, you don't make players better by reducing their damage by 25% in the name of Accessibility.

You make players better by providing a ramp of both content and mechanical teachers to give people the tools.

If someone needs to watch a YouTube video on how to do a Rotation, the Ramp has Failed, Full Stop.

I think part of the reason things don't ramp well is there isn't a set progression, with either skills or with content and I'm sick of using FF14 as an example but they have the quintessential experience for teaching people their roles and class in general. Not only that but by the time the game REALLY opens up, the players have been introduced to Dungeon and Raid Mechanics to basically have them set for the rest of the game.

Now don't get me wrong the ESO Onboarding experience as it is, is probably the best it's been. But it's doesn't nearly prepare players for end-game roles as it should.

iPeriphery

Mr_Stach wrote: »

iPeriphery wrote: »

Constructive Feedback for ZoS Only people. Let's not Derail this thread and get it deleted. ZoS Asked for Constructive Feedback, and we should give it to them.

ZoS Determines the Fate of this Game. We only have a limited chance to get them to listen, and time is of the essence boi's.

Well now you've done it, you've assumed people would come in and derail your post and argue, which is fair, it's like asking them to come in with the most baseless nonsense possible.

But you make good points, you don't make players better by reducing their damage by 25% in the name of Accessibility.

You make players better by providing a ramp of both content and mechanical teachers to give people the tools.

If someone needs to watch a YouTube video on how to do a Rotation, the Ramp has Failed, Full Stop.

I think part of the reason things don't ramp well is there isn't a set progression, with either skills or with content and I'm sick of using FF14 as an example but they have the quintessential experience for teaching people their roles and class in general. Not only that but by the time the game REALLY opens up, the players have been introduced to Dungeon and Raid Mechanics to basically have them set for the rest of the game.

Now don't get me wrong the ESO Onboarding experience as it is, is probably the best it's been. But it's doesn't nearly prepare players for end-game roles as it should.

Hopefully this thread can get some of the much needed feedback actually through and the changes we really need made.

RedFireDisco

Ironically, by reducing net damage the tank meta becomes more tanky.

Spammables should have had a increase commensurate with the decrease in light attack damage.

iPeriphery

RedFireDisco wrote: »

Ironically, by reducing net damage the tank meta becomes more tanky.

Spammables should have had a increase commensurate with the decrease in light attack damage.

I agree. You can't just cut out a large chunk of damage and not adjust either the Content itself or the skills to make up for it.

If they weren't gonna increase spammable damage, at least make the content easier to compensate for the difference in damage now.

Although hopefully the changes for U35 just don't go through at all, because they are horrendous.

Tannus15

I just find it hilarious that they don't want to create a tutorial because they know they keep changing the game so much that it'll be a hassle to keep the tutorial relevant.

Toxic_Hemlock

Tannus15 wrote: »

I just find it hilarious that they don't want to create a tutorial because they know they keep changing the game so much that it'll be a hassle to keep the tutorial relevant.

This is what taking a "bug" and making it into a feature will get you...

You never know what bug you may want to keep next!

iPeriphery

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

I just find it hilarious that they don't want to create a tutorial because they know they keep changing the game so much that it'll be a hassle to keep the tutorial relevant.

This is what taking a "bug" and making it into a feature will get you...

You never know what bug you may want to keep next!

[snip] The game wouldn't be as fun combat wise without the "Bug".

Also it wouldn't be hard to make a tutorial that stays relevant the whole time. Ani canceling never really changes as far as technique goes so it would be a one and done deal.

[edited for baiting]

Toxic_Hemlock

iPeriphery wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

I just find it hilarious that they don't want to create a tutorial because they know they keep changing the game so much that it'll be a hassle to keep the tutorial relevant.

This is what taking a "bug" and making it into a feature will get you...

You never know what bug you may want to keep next!

[snip] The game wouldn't be as fun combat wise without the "Bug".

Also it wouldn't be hard to make a tutorial that stays relevant the whole time. Ani canceling never really changes as far as technique goes so it would be a one and done deal.

Not salty at all. I don't use animation canceling, nor will I ever. I am among the 1% of players that only do overland/crafting and maybe the occasional normal dungeon so I have no skin in the game. Except the dev time being wasted instead of being prioritized for other content I do use.

My point was and is only, if they make a tutorial for this "feature" when will another come along they need to make a new tutorial around?

[edited to remove quote]

Paralyse

Or they could just get rid of a broken, glitchy system that is counterintuitive, difficult to master, and outright inaccessible for some players with disabilities.

It might also be helpful to realize that a vast majority of ESO's players don't give a hoot about the "endgame." ZOS cannot, and should not, focus the majority of their development efforts on a minority of the playerbase.

Now that I've got that out of the way, let's proceed.

One of the most egregious misconceptions being perpetrated about the changes to U35 is that they are being implemented to get more players to participate in group content. That is not ZOS's goal here. Instead, their goal is to make group content more accessible for those players who DO wish to participate.

What I mean by that is that as endgame player damage and healing have continued to creep upward over the last 4-5 years, ZOS has had to design their trials and vet DLC bosses with that in mind. In order to keep, say, vDSR fun and challenging, they have to design the encounters so that they will feel fulfilling and interesting to players who are all parsing over 100k on 21m trial dummies. However, while the performance of endgame players has steadily grown by leaps and bounds, the performance of non-endgame players has not grown at all. The end result is that current group content is becoming more and more inaccessible to players who might wish to participate.

In other words, a player who is not weaving, using only the most basic skills and random gear, will not usually parse above 10-20k on a 21m dummy. That has been constant for many years. However, a fully optimized player minmaxing and fully set up for their current DPS meta can hit 120-130k, but 4 years ago that number was 60-80k. If ZOS kept on building trial encounters based on that 60-80k maximum 21m parse, many of the encounters could have mechanics skipped entirely by simply out-damaging or out-healing them. This is also one reason why new trials such as vDSR are very mechanics heavy -- it is an attempt to solve a deep-rooted problem (DPS gap and power creep) by simply making encounter mechanics where players literally cannot DPS for periods of time. (A great example is last boss in Shipwright.)

If that gap can be narrowed -- if we can make it so that our most basic player can do 30-40k, but our top player can only do 60-80k -- then it becomes much easier to design trials so that players at all levels can join in and experience the content.

Now, I do not know how successful ZOS will be at achieving this goal. But it's better that they are at least making an attempt to solve it, instead of simply making every new update's trial and dungeon bosses "bigger, badder, and more powerful" so that upper echelon endgame players won't just come in and destroy everything on Day One without any sort of a challenge, while effectively barring a large chunk of the playerbase from ever experiencing the content, even if they wanted to.

Of course, we know what they say about good intentions and the paving of a certain road. There are still many other barriers to endgame content -- skill selection, gear sets, optimal CP and attribute distribution, positioning, awareness, an understanding of what each role brings to an encounter -- that have not been addressed. To that point I agree that there is a ton of room for improvement both in onboarding and player tutorials. That being said, ZOS also wants to encourage players to join guilds and such for grouping, and so they operate under the assumption that players who want to do Trials and other group content will engage with those guilds to learn how things work.

U35 is not about making the game easier or dumbing things down. It is about being a tentative first step towards removing some arbitrary, artificial and wholly unintended barriers to entry that have widely and unfairly blocked off large portions of the game for large portions of its playerbase.

iPeriphery

Paralyse wrote: »

Or they could just get rid of a broken, glitchy system that is counterintuitive, difficult to master, and outright inaccessible for some players with disabilities.

It might also be helpful to realize that a vast majority of ESO's players don't give a hoot about the "endgame." ZOS cannot, and should not, focus the majority of their development efforts on a minority of the playerbase.

Now that I've got that out of the way, let's proceed.

One of the most egregious misconceptions being perpetrated about the changes to U35 is that they are being implemented to get more players to participate in group content. That is not ZOS's goal here. Instead, their goal is to make group content more accessible for those players who DO wish to participate.

What I mean by that is that as endgame player damage and healing have continued to creep upward over the last 4-5 years, ZOS has had to design their trials and vet DLC bosses with that in mind. In order to keep, say, vDSR fun and challenging, they have to design the encounters so that they will feel fulfilling and interesting to players who are all parsing over 100k on 21m trial dummies. However, while the performance of endgame players has steadily grown by leaps and bounds, the performance of non-endgame players has not grown at all. The end result is that current group content is becoming more and more inaccessible to players who might wish to participate.

In other words, a player who is not weaving, using only the most basic skills and random gear, will not usually parse above 10-20k on a 21m dummy. That has been constant for many years. However, a fully optimized player minmaxing and fully set up for their current DPS meta can hit 120-130k, but 4 years ago that number was 60-80k. If ZOS kept on building trial encounters based on that 60-80k maximum 21m parse, many of the encounters could have mechanics skipped entirely by simply out-damaging or out-healing them. This is also one reason why new trials such as vDSR are very mechanics heavy -- it is an attempt to solve a deep-rooted problem (DPS gap and power creep) by simply making encounter mechanics where players literally cannot DPS for periods of time. (A great example is last boss in Shipwright.)

If that gap can be narrowed -- if we can make it so that our most basic player can do 30-40k, but our top player can only do 60-80k -- then it becomes much easier to design trials so that players at all levels can join in and experience the content.

Now, I do not know how successful ZOS will be at achieving this goal. But it's better that they are at least making an attempt to solve it, instead of simply making every new update's trial and dungeon bosses "bigger, badder, and more powerful" so that upper echelon endgame players won't just come in and destroy everything on Day One without any sort of a challenge, while effectively barring a large chunk of the playerbase from ever experiencing the content, even if they wanted to.

Of course, we know what they say about good intentions and the paving of a certain road. There are still many other barriers to endgame content -- skill selection, gear sets, optimal CP and attribute distribution, positioning, awareness, an understanding of what each role brings to an encounter -- that have not been addressed. To that point I agree that there is a ton of room for improvement both in onboarding and player tutorials. That being said, ZOS also wants to encourage players to join guilds and such for grouping, and so they operate under the assumption that players who want to do Trials and other group content will engage with those guilds to learn how things work.

U35 is not about making the game easier or dumbing things down. It is about being a tentative first step towards removing some arbitrary, artificial and wholly unintended barriers to entry that have widely and unfairly blocked off large portions of the game for large portions of its playerbase.

Animation canceling isn't a glitchy unnecessary system at all. The combat would feel like *** without it. Also Ani Canceling is easy as [snip] to master. It literally only takes 30 mins - an hour to master it. If you have a proper tutorial that shows you how to do it, it's super simple. [snip]

[edited for baiting & profanity bypass]

FluffWit

Eh never liked animation canceling. Or light track weaving.

shadyjane62

Cancel the new jabs animation and give Templars back everything you did to them.

BlueRaven

Paralyse wrote: »

Or they could just get rid of a broken, glitchy system that is counterintuitive, difficult to master, and outright inaccessible for some players with disabilities.

It might also be helpful to realize that a vast majority of ESO's players don't give a hoot about the "endgame." ZOS cannot, and should not, focus the majority of their development efforts on a minority of the playerbase.

Now that I've got that out of the way, let's proceed.

One of the most egregious misconceptions being perpetrated about the changes to U35 is that they are being implemented to get more players to participate in group content. That is not ZOS's goal here. Instead, their goal is to make group content more accessible for those players who DO wish to participate.

What I mean by that is that as endgame player damage and healing have continued to creep upward over the last 4-5 years, ZOS has had to design their trials and vet DLC bosses with that in mind. In order to keep, say, vDSR fun and challenging, they have to design the encounters so that they will feel fulfilling and interesting to players who are all parsing over 100k on 21m trial dummies. However, while the performance of endgame players has steadily grown by leaps and bounds, the performance of non-endgame players has not grown at all. The end result is that current group content is becoming more and more inaccessible to players who might wish to participate.

In other words, a player who is not weaving, using only the most basic skills and random gear, will not usually parse above 10-20k on a 21m dummy. That has been constant for many years. However, a fully optimized player minmaxing and fully set up for their current DPS meta can hit 120-130k, but 4 years ago that number was 60-80k. If ZOS kept on building trial encounters based on that 60-80k maximum 21m parse, many of the encounters could have mechanics skipped entirely by simply out-damaging or out-healing them. This is also one reason why new trials such as vDSR are very mechanics heavy -- it is an attempt to solve a deep-rooted problem (DPS gap and power creep) by simply making encounter mechanics where players literally cannot DPS for periods of time. (A great example is last boss in Shipwright.)

If that gap can be narrowed -- if we can make it so that our most basic player can do 30-40k, but our top player can only do 60-80k -- then it becomes much easier to design trials so that players at all levels can join in and experience the content.

Now, I do not know how successful ZOS will be at achieving this goal. But it's better that they are at least making an attempt to solve it, instead of simply making every new update's trial and dungeon bosses "bigger, badder, and more powerful" so that upper echelon endgame players won't just come in and destroy everything on Day One without any sort of a challenge, while effectively barring a large chunk of the playerbase from ever experiencing the content, even if they wanted to.

Of course, we know what they say about good intentions and the paving of a certain road. There are still many other barriers to endgame content -- skill selection, gear sets, optimal CP and attribute distribution, positioning, awareness, an understanding of what each role brings to an encounter -- that have not been addressed. To that point I agree that there is a ton of room for improvement both in onboarding and player tutorials. That being said, ZOS also wants to encourage players to join guilds and such for grouping, and so they operate under the assumption that players who want to do Trials and other group content will engage with those guilds to learn how things work.

U35 is not about making the game easier or dumbing things down. It is about being a tentative first step towards removing some arbitrary, artificial and wholly unintended barriers to entry that have widely and unfairly blocked off large portions of the game for large portions of its playerbase.

This is really well written. Bravo.

iPeriphery

The only problem with Paralyses idea is that Everyone gets *** by the nerf bat. It doesn't help any of the people ZoS Intended to help. Now the newer players with bad damage are going to be even worse and not able to do the content they might have been able to do before.

iPeriphery

shadyjane62 wrote: »

Cancel the new jabs animation and give Templars back everything you did to them.

Sadly It's doubtful that they will cancel any of the changes. Usually the PTS is 90% what the launch patch will be like

Darkstorne

iPeriphery wrote: »

Animation canceling isn't a glitchy unnecessary system at all. The combat would feel like *** without it.

But it is glitchy. There are games that handle animation cancelling incredibly well (For Honor, New World for an MMO example), there are games that don't have it at all which is a problem imo (Souls games), and then there's ESO which has an accidental animation cancelling system.

In games with good animation cancelling systems, you can cancel an attack during the wind up phase, and the recovery phase, but not during the actual attack phase (because physics don't let you stop swinging a greatsword mid-swing). If you cancel during the wind-up no damage is dealt because no attack connected, but you can utilize this to feint your opponent into thinking a specific kind of attack is coming before cancelling into a different attack. If you cancel during the recovery phase you can gain extra mobility.

In ESO, the game wasn't programmed to properly support animation cancelling. You can cancel an attack at literally any point, physics be damned, and even if you animation cancel during the wind up portion of an attack, before your attack has had any chance to actually connect with an opponent, you still deal damage as if the attack was both executed and had successfully connected.

That's why so many people hate ESO's version of animation cancelling. Because it is objectively trash.

dmnqwk

iPeriphery wrote: »

Lets start with what we can do to fix the game we all love.

First you start with Reverting the changes
Secondly what you do is make A Tutorial

Making the game into a Hello Kitty Online braindead simplified Easiness isn't going to be fun .

People aren't all the same,

Stop trying to get rid of the Skill Gap

It gets boring really quick playing any game with cheat codes on. Sure it's amusing at first, but it gets stale really quickly.

You know what to do now.

Hello!
I specifically quoted only part of the post so you can see why people (or ZOS) may react unfairly to your posts. Having an idea of how to fix the game is a positive step, but sometimes it's important not to overextend your passion by being mean.

Your point of 'revert changes, make tutorial' is very clear.
Having said that, I'm not sure I see how making a tutorial will fix anything. I've said in other places, it's very obvious how few people are capable of judging their own ability - they always make assumptions that 'well it's easy for me, it must be easy for everyone' and it's never quite true.
If you are personally capable of parsing 100k+ (I mean, I can only do 104k, DPS has never been my speciality) then yay! But if you're getting frustrated by others, understand it's your frustration and not their ability that's the issue.

The skill gap in this game is too big - going from 10k to 100k is too big. Getting that 10k to 20k and that 100k to 80k is enough of a skill gap that good play is rewarded. Being four times stronger than someone else should absolutely be enough to make progress clear and make people feel accomplished.

Personally, I'd like to see Sustain improved by way of spammables reduced in cost 70% (meaning they design it so the layers you add to your spammable will force you to build for it, but the spammable itself is so cheap you dont. That would be a good design move).

gusthermopyle

Paralyse wrote: »

Or they could just get rid of a broken, glitchy system that is counterintuitive, difficult to master, and outright inaccessible for some players with disabilities.

It might also be helpful to realize that a vast majority of ESO's players don't give a hoot about the "endgame." ZOS cannot, and should not, focus the majority of their development efforts on a minority of the playerbase.

Now that I've got that out of the way, let's proceed.

One of the most egregious misconceptions being perpetrated about the changes to U35 is that they are being implemented to get more players to participate in group content. That is not ZOS's goal here. Instead, their goal is to make group content more accessible for those players who DO wish to participate.

What I mean by that is that as endgame player damage and healing have continued to creep upward over the last 4-5 years, ZOS has had to design their trials and vet DLC bosses with that in mind. In order to keep, say, vDSR fun and challenging, they have to design the encounters so that they will feel fulfilling and interesting to players who are all parsing over 100k on 21m trial dummies. However, while the performance of endgame players has steadily grown by leaps and bounds, the performance of non-endgame players has not grown at all. The end result is that current group content is becoming more and more inaccessible to players who might wish to participate.

In other words, a player who is not weaving, using only the most basic skills and random gear, will not usually parse above 10-20k on a 21m dummy. That has been constant for many years. However, a fully optimized player minmaxing and fully set up for their current DPS meta can hit 120-130k, but 4 years ago that number was 60-80k. If ZOS kept on building trial encounters based on that 60-80k maximum 21m parse, many of the encounters could have mechanics skipped entirely by simply out-damaging or out-healing them. This is also one reason why new trials such as vDSR are very mechanics heavy -- it is an attempt to solve a deep-rooted problem (DPS gap and power creep) by simply making encounter mechanics where players literally cannot DPS for periods of time. (A great example is last boss in Shipwright.)

If that gap can be narrowed -- if we can make it so that our most basic player can do 30-40k, but our top player can only do 60-80k -- then it becomes much easier to design trials so that players at all levels can join in and experience the content.

Now, I do not know how successful ZOS will be at achieving this goal. But it's better that they are at least making an attempt to solve it, instead of simply making every new update's trial and dungeon bosses "bigger, badder, and more powerful" so that upper echelon endgame players won't just come in and destroy everything on Day One without any sort of a challenge, while effectively barring a large chunk of the playerbase from ever experiencing the content, even if they wanted to.

Of course, we know what they say about good intentions and the paving of a certain road. There are still many other barriers to endgame content -- skill selection, gear sets, optimal CP and attribute distribution, positioning, awareness, an understanding of what each role brings to an encounter -- that have not been addressed. To that point I agree that there is a ton of room for improvement both in onboarding and player tutorials. That being said, ZOS also wants to encourage players to join guilds and such for grouping, and so they operate under the assumption that players who want to do Trials and other group content will engage with those guilds to learn how things work.

U35 is not about making the game easier or dumbing things down. It is about being a tentative first step towards removing some arbitrary, artificial and wholly unintended barriers to entry that have widely and unfairly blocked off large portions of the game for large portions of its playerbase.

That's the best thing I have seen anyone say about any of this debacle. Shame that ZoS themselves couldn't have put it quite so eloquently, but hey ***.

I'm no endgamer. I can understand their perspective that having all your efforts over years of skill building and practice reduced to something simpler and less fulfilling is extremely frustrating, and may well lead some to move on from the game. Demonstrating skill is a valuable thing and people like it.

But if the overall result of U35 is as described above then I would hope that once the dust settles it can be seen as an improvement. I really hope so because none of us want the game to decline.

LordDragonMara

LA Weaving is a thing from day 1, and it doesn't matter if it was a bug, glitch or whatever. It could very well be a feature. Doesn't matter they will tell you the truth. They will tell you, what they want to tell you. Simple as that.

It's also not some rock hard science math, that you need a certain thinking or so to understand, it's a basic thing that exist in many games.
And yeah it's a skill. If you don't like you, don't use it, but don't complain then, that you are lacking DMG than.

CS:GO has animation canceling on reload. Apex Legends has animation canceling/fast weapon draw if you crouch when you swap weapons, and millions more game have such mechanics that awards players who explore and look for every bit of improvement in terms of APM, CPM and so on.
Paralyse suggestion is terrible. If you want DPS i have one word for you = optimization. It's one of the must thing in MMO.

Trying to turn ESO into potato it's a terrible thing, that will have destructive consequences.

And people should know what they are getting into it. I mean the genre. There is things that is required. IF you want to play the way you want to play and use certain skills and gear you like, than that's fine, you can do it, and there is normal content for you, you can still play the whole game.
If you want more, the way is given to you.
People that want to be good at something will always find a way.
They don't need extensive tutorials or someone to artificially pushing and babysitting them.


It's a proven million times already that a game is going to die without the hardcore community. A game can be alive and very healthy driven by hardcore community, POE is a good example of it. Almost 10 years, and the game is perfectly healthy and constantly progress. Even though engine is terrible, performance are meh, graphics was outdated even 10 years ago and so on. And on top of that this is the most unfriendly to a new player game that can be.
Hardcore community is pushing a game further and further, they make the game move and evolve. They are also the ones that gives you all the guides and makes everyone else life easier by already given the blueprint to pretty much everything.


Making a game potato it's going to kill it pretty quick, pretty fast. It's a proven way to kill a game.


Every game should and always be balanced towards the high end community, because that is the ceiling and how the game moves forward.


And yeah if you want something, just like in life, just "git gud".

Tra_Lalan

If they wanted to close the gap I think that the oaken soul ring was a step in a good direction.

The soulution should be like this: I am less skilled/less expierienced player, give me a guaranteed lvl of dps/buffs, with easier way of play, but in the same time more expierienced player should be able to perform better than me with his more difficult to manage build.
What was wrong with oaken soul is that the item was also disturbing balance to all other players (pvp). They could have just make it not work in pvp areas.

Other idea in the same direction:

Make a new skill line designed just for less expierienced players:
it should have a very good spammable (like current templars jabs, but it would be allowed for all classes, a spammable which would grant a decent level of dps even if the player only used this one skill all the time),
some easy to manage dots/hots (with same timers and some good buffs ) and while sloting a skill from this line, you would also have to use one bar or for example, only skills from this line.

As for the topic of learning the base combat mechanics, maybe implement those things (like interrupt/block/break free) to quests? If I wiped on a quest boss due to not interupting his spell, and the game would told me (or yeled to me using some npc) "you must bash!", in the same time showing me the regular information how to do it, I think I would eventualy learn that it is a thing, and from time to time you just have to do it or else somebody dies.

BXR_Lonestar

iPeriphery wrote: »

*I'll keep this civil and straight to the point. There is no intention of bashing ZoS within this post just to make myself clear.

Lets start with what we can do to fix the game we all love.

Instead of gutting the game completely, the solution is very VERY simple.
So simple, that I don't understand why they HAVENT done it already????? It shouldn't take 8 years to figure this out.

First you start with Reverting the changes that made Animation Canceling Ultimates not possible, and then you add Bash Canceling viability back. Because those changes just Gutted the core combat mechanics that actually make the game fun and different from other MMO's out there.

You don't just take the CORE MECHANICS that make this game unique and differentiated from other MMO's (which is the only thing you've got going for your game) and just throw it in the trash. Whether they were intentionally supposed to be there or not is IRRELEVANT, they've been here for 8 years and made the game better than it would have been without them.

I mean... unless you're intentionally trying to kill your game; then by all means go ahead, that's your decision.

Secondly what you do is make A Tutorial that properly teaches new players how to Animation Cancel/Weave/Bash Cancel/Block Cancel/Dodge Cancel/Weapon Swap Cancel.

The ONLY SOLUTION to lowering the "Skill Gap", is by Players Learning how to, in MMO terms they say... "GIT GUD".

Making the game into a Hello Kitty Online braindead simplified Easiness isn't going to be fun for anyone in the Long or Short Term. If we wanted to play "spam the same skill while applying 50 DoT's Simulator", we could just go bash our heads against a tree IRL instead; because that would be way more entertaining.

No matter how "Hip" and "Inclusive" You want to be, you have to accept the reality that there is always going to be someone who excels at a skill over others. Save your virtue signaling for someone who cares, because that isn't going to make the game "better".

People aren't all the same, they have different levels of comprehension and that is totally fine. If we were all the same, the world would never get anything innovative done. Being stuck inside a vacuum of only the same few thoughts never accomplishes anything except a self-perpetuating cycle of delusion.

Stop trying to get rid of the Skill Gap, and try and provide the player base with the resources and tools they need to actually improve. What's the point of a game if you have 0 challenge and have everything handed to you?

It gets boring really quick playing any game with cheat codes on. Sure it's amusing at first, but it gets stale really quickly.

You know what to do now. The rest is in your hands ZoS. I can only hope you make the correct decision, because it would be a shame to see this game and all the work put into it be for naught when it inevitably dies from changes like what U35 proposes, alongside already awful unasked for changes in past updates.

Everything is cumulating to a boiling point, and it wont be long before the water boils over the pot into the burner.

You are assuming that weaving/animation cancelling is what makes this game enjoyable for ALL people. It's not. The combat IMO is the least favorite part of the game for me, so I'm open to changes that will eliminate it. But if people DO find that style of combat enjoyable, perhaps they can fully eliminate it, and then add sets back in that will allow them to bypass the GCD through animation cancelling/weaving, but will come with its own set of stats that will allow them to adjust combat effectiveness of those builds that utilize that mechanic so that its not such a huge combat advantage.

Remathilis

The irony of adding "together" on your title and then telling a large chunk of the playerbase to "get gud" is Alanis Morrisette worthy. I guess by "together" you mean the tryhards, score-pushers and Twitch streamers, right?

Fwiw, I dislike the current changes proposed on the pts, but if the alternative is "add more invisible mechanics and dummy hump until you learn to play", I'll take U35 AS IS.

Agenericname

Remathilis wrote: »

The irony of adding "together" on your title and then telling a large chunk of the playerbase to "get gud" is Alanis Morrisette worthy. I guess by "together" you mean the tryhards, score-pushers and Twitch streamers, right?

Fwiw, I dislike the current changes proposed on the pts, but if the alternative is "add more invisible mechanics and dummy hump until you learn to play", I'll take U35 AS IS.

I always wondered if it was intentional or not, but, a black fly in your chardonnay isn't ironic, its unfortunate. Unless the irony was in fact irony itself. Thats a high bar. I dont think this meets thats standard.

I dont think that tutorials would really matter. The reason why the gap has grown, as Paralyze noted, is because the power in the sets, especially those depedent on weaving, have grown faster than the characters power. In some cases they replace that power.

Remathilis

Agenericname wrote: »

Remathilis wrote: »

The irony of adding "together" on your title and then telling a large chunk of the playerbase to "get gud" is Alanis Morrisette worthy. I guess by "together" you mean the tryhards, score-pushers and Twitch streamers, right?

Fwiw, I dislike the current changes proposed on the pts, but if the alternative is "add more invisible mechanics and dummy hump until you learn to play", I'll take U35 AS IS.

I always wondered if it was intentional or not, but, a black fly in your chardonnay isn't ironic, its unfortunate. Unless the irony was in fact irony itself. Thats a high bar. I dont think this meets thats standard.

I dont think that tutorials would really matter. The reason why the gap has grown, as Paralyze noted, is because the power in the sets, especially those depedent on weaving, have grown faster than the characters power. In some cases they replace that power.

I always felt it was intentional none of Alanis's examples are actually ironic.

That said, ZoS has been all over the map regarding weaving. All the best sets now (Relequin, Kinras, etc) are "light weave" triggered and limiting for those who can't reliability hit that weave due to lag, medical issues, or similar. I'd like to see more sets that just do things rather then jump though hoops to get Major Berserk.

iPeriphery

Remathilis wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Remathilis wrote: »

The irony of adding "together" on your title and then telling a large chunk of the playerbase to "get gud" is Alanis Morrisette worthy. I guess by "together" you mean the tryhards, score-pushers and Twitch streamers, right?

Fwiw, I dislike the current changes proposed on the pts, but if the alternative is "add more invisible mechanics and dummy hump until you learn to play", I'll take U35 AS IS.

I always wondered if it was intentional or not, but, a black fly in your chardonnay isn't ironic, its unfortunate. Unless the irony was in fact irony itself. Thats a high bar. I dont think this meets thats standard.

I dont think that tutorials would really matter. The reason why the gap has grown, as Paralyze noted, is because the power in the sets, especially those depedent on weaving, have grown faster than the characters power. In some cases they replace that power.

I always felt it was intentional none of Alanis's examples are actually ironic.

That said, ZoS has been all over the map regarding weaving. All the best sets now (Relequin, Kinras, etc) are "light weave" triggered and limiting for those who can't reliability hit that weave due to lag, medical issues, or similar. I'd like to see more sets that just do things rather then jump though hoops to get Major Berserk.

Exactly, the problem isn't the player bases fault. If they want to make the game "More Accessible" they should stop adding game breaking sets and start adding things that can help different playstyles for people who are either too unskilled, or not physically capable; like how Oakensoul did. And if those sets become too powerful in PVP, simply reduce their power through Battle Spirit to make them balanced in both PVP and PVE. It's super simple.

Agenericname

Remathilis wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Remathilis wrote: »

The irony of adding "together" on your title and then telling a large chunk of the playerbase to "get gud" is Alanis Morrisette worthy. I guess by "together" you mean the tryhards, score-pushers and Twitch streamers, right?

Fwiw, I dislike the current changes proposed on the pts, but if the alternative is "add more invisible mechanics and dummy hump until you learn to play", I'll take U35 AS IS.

I always wondered if it was intentional or not, but, a black fly in your chardonnay isn't ironic, its unfortunate. Unless the irony was in fact irony itself. Thats a high bar. I dont think this meets thats standard.

I dont think that tutorials would really matter. The reason why the gap has grown, as Paralyze noted, is because the power in the sets, especially those depedent on weaving, have grown faster than the characters power. In some cases they replace that power.

I always felt it was intentional none of Alanis's examples are actually ironic.

That said, ZoS has been all over the map regarding weaving. All the best sets now (Relequin, Kinras, etc) are "light weave" triggered and limiting for those who can't reliability hit that weave due to lag, medical issues, or similar. I'd like to see more sets that just do things rather then jump though hoops to get Major Berserk.

If by more sets you mean make that the standard, the yes, I agree. I dont really want to see Relequen's power put into a set with no conditions though. If they want to reduce this gap, give it back to the characters/classes. Then virtually everyone's damage is raised, except the top's.

Lowering the damage this way will just put more emphasis on weaving. I don't mind weaving, I simply dont think it should be necessary. There should be a reward for the extra effort, sure, but not a mandate. This change feels like its leaning into it more than away from it.

I tend to think it was intentional.

boi_anachronism_

I've made this comparison before and I'll say it again:

If a school is underfunded and folks do not have good opportunities as a result you don't defund all other schools, you fund the lower performing ones more thereby giving students more chances to excell. Then they can make the decision as to whether they want to take advantage of those new opportunities or not.

iPeriphery

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I've made this comparison before and I'll say it again:

If a school is underfunded and folks do not have good opportunities as a result you don't defund all other schools, you fund the lower performing ones more thereby giving students more chances to excell. Then they can make the decision as to whether they want to take advantage of those new opportunities or not.

Exactly. It's better to Buff the Low and Mid end, rather than nerf everyone across the board for no reason.

LordDragonMara

Yeah i wanna ask the DEVS is this how they handle their employees for example ?
Are they trying to bring the programmers/devs that are on top a level down, because they are too good, and the rest can't keep with them ? And they punish them by lowering their salary for example? Does anyone will actually stay in the company if they act that way? Of course not, but that won't happen as well !!! If someone is underachieving the problem is in him. You may try to help him, by teaching him what to do, and how to improve, but you won't bring the others down to his level, cause this is a self-destructing. And it's up to him to bring his game up.

This is a MMORPG game with a lot of complexity and depths. All you need is to learn the basics/fundamentals and to build on after that. The gap is huge because people don't learn the basics things, and then someone is start complaining, and bring all the excuses in the world.

When i was in the Private Software University SoftUni, if you struggle with the Basics for example you need to repeat the course again. No one is going to let you go into the next course, if you not learn the very Basics for example.

The guys that are performing the best gets applauded, not penalized, because someone is struggle for whatever reason.;


It's the same in life.

You can't go to the gym and start complaining that the experience people in there are lifting 100+ kgs and you can't hit even 50 on the bench ? Or that, they shouldn't be allowed to do certain exercise, because you can't do them.

So what, the GYM owners should go and tell the experience lifters to not weight that much or not do certain exercise, because some people are lazy and refusing to learn ? The GYM going to lose all of it's people if they do that.
Guess what it's the same in the game.


It's proven time after time, that a hardcore community can keep a game alive and very healthy - POE is a perfect example, but Casual(there is good and bad casuals, that need to be said), just can't, they eventually get bored and move. They care about themselves, not about the game.