Guide - for ZOS: "How to nerf others better"

JustAGoodPlayer

PLS read it first - it is complex solution that can really help. Sorry if i am to rude - but i try to tell like it really is - so sorry.

It is a lot of builds in current game. And when you make some change to even TOP DPS builds - you harm a lot of different players who do not have so much DPS. As example you make change in build for 140k dps - it now do 130k, but the same time builds who do 97k DPS now becomes do 50k.

People becomes angry on you - because you destroy game for them and take there favorite builds away.

First of ALL - i do not think about current "elit exp players = META" as about some thing special. I think that some self proclamed "guru" - just make for a lot of years comfortable balance for themselves, by nerfing other players favorite skills, builds and game stiles.

What i really want - game be really balanced and players be happy - not all META and self proclaimed elitists - but all good playing and casual players.

The same time i do not want it take to much work for you too - so it will be easy to make ! It will not take years and it will be easy to control.

So if you stop for some time with current PTS changes (better delete them ) - and if we take current LIVE situation - on servers - BALANCE IS NOT REALLY AS BAD !!!

It needs little fixes - that is ALL. If current PTS go live - it will have so much code mistakes that next year you will need to fix it - and balance in patch is only worse, so we wil not get better balance for about 1-2 years.

Lets decide a tasks what we really want to do - and focus on it.

1) We want good players have near the same DPS. The casual who just stand near boss - can not have the same DPS as really skillfull player. Because game becomes not interested to play.
But for good Players - it will be nice if damage will be + / - the same.

I played a lot of games and i can not say - that "wiwing" - is some thing really skillfull and some thing you need to be proud. It is such a small game expirience - that it is nothing to be proud.
But - is it harder than do no "wiwing" at all ? Yes it is !!! Thats why it must be revarded ! But not that much as it is now !

But you can not just nerf LA - because some builds who as example use only LA - lose 50+ % of damage. And if say trully - they do near the same as "wiwing" players do - they spam button - not skill+la, but LA+LA. So you punish them more ! They are the same players as all others ! But not META guys get hit - but they do !!! Meta do not really lose that much - you only empower it ! And nerf all other players !

To solve this problem lets look on game mechanics:

What is LA - it is free damage source. You can put it betwin skills - and it really is not bad. But some times game work really bad - it do not normally work - and game start to fell bad.
The same time a lot of players can perfectly do it - but for a long time you do it - if as example you work with PC 24*7 - your hand starts hurt. Such players can continue it with no problems - but game gives him no fun. He is concentreted - he do task - but it hurts - so you get no fun at all ! So it is no reason to force it all the time. But let it be like some small burst.

What you really need and can do is:
In a lot of game LA is auto - or is not used at all - only skills. Manual La in TESO is a really good thing ! It some times even fell good. But it do to much DPS for now - so you are forced to do it. If you nerf it - you destroy a lot of builds - so it is not even an option. But you can buff all other players. Who are other players - those who do not press LA.

So for not pressing a LA after skill you can give buff to players next skill or HA damage for 10% for 1 second. how will it work:

a) If players rotate perfectly - he will not get this buff at all. So his damage will be the same like it is now.
b) If he do mistakes - each time he lose to press LA - his other skill will do more damage so DELTA betwin more exp player and him will be smaller ! Exp player will be better but not that much.
c) For HA builds that use all LA/HA/Skills - HA is o loose of damage. We press less skills, but do more damage with HA - that is like spammable for us. So we try to get more slots on panel for support/controll and etc skills. Our rotations looks like 4-5 HA+5 skills from main bar - 3-4 skills from back bar with 4-LA. So we press 8+10 buttons in 14 seconds rotation. And i do not see any reason - our damage be less than a player who press just skills (10-14 buttons) - because we press even more ! Yes we get sustain from it - but we are more open to get damage in this moment (we do not block) - and we move slower ! So just buff all the damage after HA for 10% as example for 3-4 seconds. And such model be very balanced. Do not do any other changes for HA for now.

No builds get damage this way !

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Next problem will be - players do good damage ! They can easely pass some easy trials - what to do ?

Players damage is not itself to big ! Solo players is not a target for get nerfs ! The current problem is - that not about skilled players do much damage ! Solo players are OK - a lot of different builds are OK !

META - IS A PROBLEM !!! What is META - it is thing - that force players put on sets and skills they do not want ! Do not let you use your favorite builds and sets ! It is the thing that have to get nerf ! Really big nerf ! And it is a way to do it - but not to making players unhappy !!!

Because of it - just a NORMAL GOOD players get nerfs each update. And this is the thing that needs nerf - not players, not our DPS !

What is META and how it works - it is buff sets in game ! If it is 12 players with 12 buff sets that each gives 5% to damage = even if this players have each 80k DPS - this party will have 60% MORE DAMAGE !!! So the same skilled players will have 600k DPS on group or 900k DPS on group ! It force you put on sets you do not want - play the way you do not like !

And if OK for new trials (that only only enter the game and is not yet nerfed) - may be it is some thing OK - but for old trials - that was not designed for such big damage - it is a problem = becouse bosses can do nothing - they die before it appears !!!

Not because of damage - but because of tons of buffs. It was not to much buff sets before - so PLAYERS BUFF SUSTAIN - if we make builds like HA do normal damage it will not be META - it will be near the same game play. So it is healthy for the game - to make sustained buff sets not so usefull !

The same time it is to many buff sets already !!! In time when MOL exist - no such many buff sets ! Now it is tons of it.

And i do not say it is bad - it do not make much difference in dunguans as example. but in trial where 12 players can put it on and force you do the same ! it is overpowered - and make you unhappy - becouse you do not want to wear it !

Buff sets do not need to be nerfed - it is good as it is now.

BUT just add "Corruptor/deflect of Magic" buff to bosses already !

What is "Corruptor/deflect of Magic" - and how it works ? It punish to much buff and debuff sets. For each unique buff or debuff on the boss/group - it gives mitigation to boss.

As example - 5 buffs on party - boss is 10% more FAT (get less damage).
10 buffs = 20% more fat.
10 debuffs = + 20% more fat.

So buffs will be effective - but not as much to force people use such sets. You can desighn "Corruptor/deflect of Magic" for old trials - to make it more powerfull and remove it or make light fo some others - by just changing this % of damage reduction.

(Unique buff and debuff sets produced - do power of the "Corruptor/deflect of Magic" stronger, or may be some effects to then can be added to this list).

So you fix the real problem ! No one get nerfed - and content will be possible to pass !!!

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For PVP do not remake sets and skills for now too ! First look on healers sets ball group use ! There is the same bug in it as in azurblight before in 2021 year some where !
It will make skills press - and some sets will not even need to be fixed - becouse they are not much danger if game do not lags !!!

Then do nott nerf everything - but make it work more like LOR and real human logick ! just as example - if NB is not visible - his blood fall/burning and debuffs are. So let such enemy be traced by exp players by see some effects - and than expose them by direct AOE hit or detect skills as example.

Do not nerf a lot of class skills - but buff some of them instead - but give each class skill to easely counter it ! You make game only better by make counterplay not standartization and nerfing players !!!

Other way game becomes boring and unplayable. All you need to make it be fun for a different players. Now you nerf a lot of players but it is no need in it - the REAL PROBLEM IS DIFFERENT.

Androrix

Kudos to the OP for the detailed feedback.

What I take away from the post is a concern that the tail is wagging the dog. Changes that seem to target a small cadre of elite players can have very dramatic downstream affect on more casual players and crater all their hard work on builds. I am not smart enough to work out the overall player population impact, but that is certainly my own experience with recent/proposed patches.

Jpk0012

Simple solution to this dps creep would have been mitigating returns. Instead they decided to nuke everything.

Ratzkifal

Wow that's a lot of text.

Your suggestion of upping resistances depending on the number of buffs that are on the group/the boss is not going to work. We want anyone to be able to join trials, that means any class. If you add resistances for the number of buffs in the group or debuffs on the boss, it will essentially mean the fewer classes are present the better, because that would dramatically decrease the buffs and debuffs present. We really don't want raiding to devolve into "LF 7DD link achievement only Sorcs", do we? Because that is going to make it even harder to find groups.

I also get the feeling you do not know what "meta" is.

META - IS A PROBLEM !!! What is META - it is thing - that force players put on sets and skills they do not want !

Meta is actually the "most effective tactic available", at least that is what's generally understood. What that means is, meta can never go away. There will always be a meta. However, a meta can be healthy or unhealthy for the game and enjoyment. What we want is for the meta to become as open as possible, with many different options being comparable or exactly equally viable.
Getting rid of buff sets is not going to remove "meta" from the game and it's actually just going to make things harder for everyone unless you buff everyone as compensation.
Tangent:

As an example, if everyone already has Major Courage, nobody needs to wear Spell Power Cure anymore - that's part of the of what made Oakensoul so appealing and why it helped many people complete content they couldn't complete before. But you cannot simply increase everyone's numbers like that, because the best players will also receive that power, blaze through the game's most difficult content, complain that the game is too easy, get bored eventually and quit. That's the whole point to "raising the floor without raising the ceiling" - commonly referred to as "closing the skill gap" or as "reducing the delta", although these also apply to lowering the ceiling without lowering the floor, which is what ZOS is erroneously trying to do on the PTS right now, and failing as they are lowering the floor too...

Since many of these buffs can be taken advantage of by players of any skill level, buff sets are actually vital to the success of "low skill" players. The buffs that disproportionally favor the top players are things like Maelstrom staves, which require you to do as many light attacks as possible, offering players higher damage returns the more light attacks they can produce per second, but most buffs do not work that way. Relequen for example doesn't require much to deal its damage, but sets like Bahsei and Coral Riptide require you to manage your resources just right to be as effective with them as possible - which many players can not do to the same level of effectiveness as the best of the best.
It's these sets that ZOS should do something about if we want to target buff sets, not the ones that are easy to apply.
Nerfing all buff sets indiscriminately would just result in a situation where nobody would be able to complete the most difficult content anymore and that's not in anyone's interest.

We've previously discussed your ideas about light and heavy attacks already in that other thread of yours and my opinion on that still stands. Increasing the damage of your next skill whenever you haven't used a light attack is unnecessarily complicated and vulnerable to exploits. A good player would then withhold their light attack right before ulting to deal even more damage. It's not a good idea and we can already do a lot better with simpler solutions.
For example, if we reduce light attack damage by 50%, we know that for the best players this would be, hypothetically, 2000 damage per second less. All we then have to do is raise the standard spammable damage by another 2000 and thus the floor would be raised while the ceiling remains the same, while everyone in between receives a slight buff. For the niche dot heavy builds that are only using light or heavy attacks instead of a spammable, the CP slottable that increases LA and HA damage could then be buffed without issue, as light attacks are not as relevant to the top players anymore, which would still reduce the damage for the best players by forcing them to choose between old light attack damage levels and slotting another CP instead, while allowing for the option to optimize into LA and HA damage for those niche builds. That way everyone can enjoy something they like while also reducing the gap and without breaking anything for anyone.

JustAGoodPlayer

It will work and worked already in a lot of games - where developers need to make DPS of players lower.

A lot of players do not interested to play in buff sets by the way - you force them to put it on.

If players can walk in favorite sets and builds - it will be only better.

To say that i do not know - is strange to say - i know perfectly - why you are so sure you know ? Do not you think about yourself to high ? )

Do you play other games do you see any examples ?

With out your buff sets you will not have a lot of DPS - if restrict it in old trial - you could not do to much damage. It is understandable logick - you can not do 120 k dps on not trial dummy - as example on 6 kk dummy you may be do 60 k DPS max.

So content than do not need tons of damage to skip it will be more helthy again.

Now all you think is EXP play - is overdamage the bosses - i already tired from it - in as example PW we prebuffed 5 minutes and kill boss in 5 seconds. may be it is some thing so cool and new for you, but i as a player already tired from such game play.

I want normal long fights. Not skip/skip/skip. A lot of players are interested this the same.

carlos424

Nerf some of the skills that buff groups, and for which really good groups keep high up times. Things like brittle, major force, major slayer, put a cooldown on elemental catalyst, etc. Even implementing a couple of these would decrease top end group damage, and have a lesser effect on mid-tier and small groups. Also, these would have very little, if any, effect on solo play.

JustAGoodPlayer

carlos424 wrote: »

Nerf some of the skills that buff groups, and for which really good groups keep high up times. Things like brittle, major force, major slayer, put a cooldown on elemental catalyst, etc. Even implementing a couple of these would decrease top end group damage, and have a lesser effect on mid-tier and small groups. Also, these would have very little, if any, effect on solo play.

True.

But the same i do not ask nerf sets.

Current buf set gives about from 2% to 5% to DPS, so if such sets will be buff boss for as exampke 2-3% to HP(mitigation that work as 2-3% hp add) - groups that do not use buff sets will not get hit.

Groups that are OP by to a lot of buffs get a big lose of damage - but sets will not become useless and it will be possible to pass a little more easy than with out such sets. Not 1.5-2 times easier, but on normal human difference ammount.

The same time it is even possible to not restrict all buffs/debuffs of such sets, as example - minor/major def debuff get no hit, but as example major courage get 2% boss upgrade too.

So it is very simple system with a lot of settingth for different trials, because you can do different % of buff and debuff decrease (boss empower) from 0 to 4-5 % as example.

And let some number of it with out penalty, as example 3 buffs/debuffs for free with no boss empower.

Boss empower per less than 2-3%is healthy, because you damage no sest user. Sets with buff that give about the same amount of DPS just will not give DPS real difference to group and lose of 2-3% ( empowering a boss for 2-3%) from other sets will not make them too much better than any other sets for trials.

So if now group get +50+30% to dps, with restriction they get about 20-to-40%

It is better than no sets, but not 80% difference in DPS !

For trials like MOL - biss buff can be about 3-4% as example.

You need not get 1kk DPS there.

Do mechanics !

There is no achivments that need hard time limit there.

And hard time limit is the worst thing for the game itself !

For new trials - they was made for current DPS levels, so boss empower = 0%.

But with some patches make HP of boss less, remove hard time limits and add this system too.

And do other trials based on this system - you will not have any problem than even if you make 100 new buff sets and any member would like to wear it or wear not.

Current DPS check in old trials are about 30-35k DPS.

With no builds nerf, sets nerf with such system you can do the same 30-35k dps check per DD.

They will run, do some thing so if they have about solo DPS in 3 kk as 40k they will pass it.

And it is OK if some DD has 50k+ dps because they can help players with lesser DPS to pass.

But current game is: they ask you yo have 100 k DPS to skip content. They will not even help to any body.

They already forgot how it is to pass honestly. All they can is overDPS ! They can not already do it any other way.

META for them is - can skip or can not pass.

It is not most effective, it is only possible option )))

JustAGoodPlayer

It looks like ZOS are not interested in players ideas ? ) You can at least say some thing - for example why do not you like such idea ?