This is getting outrageous

FantasticFreddie

As a side note: "skipping all the phases" is not a thing. There are only a handful of trials where that is 1) not the intended gameplay and 2) its even possible. For example, in vSS to get the speedrun you need to leave the statues alive. That is an intended mechanic.
VAS and vCR, you can skip minis if you have the dps, and vCR you can skip portals.
I would say there is fewer than 100 people on PC that can actually do those things, so if zos is balancing the game to prevent that, at the cost of tens of thousands, they fail the most basic cost vrs benefits analysis.

Gaebriel0410

No I am neither rude nor snarky, I just disagree with you and question that the sky is falling with every new patch.

I know how DPS checks work, and I know that you need decent damage to clear a vet trial. I am not inexperienced in raiding, I quite enjoy challenging group content.

But weren't those vet hardmode trials regularly cleared years ago when DPS was generally much, much lower? The devs addressing the power creep is a good thing imo. Like I said, they should definitely look at adjusting damage requirements if the newest trials require amounts that suddenly can't be reached. And I doubt that any game designer would treat player damage like it exists in a vacuum.

MindOfTheSwarm

Power creep has nothing to do with why people are upset. It’s because once more build diversity is being diluted. DoT builds are a staple of MMO’s and now it’s going to be impossible to make a meaningful DoT build and not be instantly rejected by raiding groups.

Pevey

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

But the dps checks in vMoL were for when 35k was the top figure……

So it would be interesting to ask the trial devs just what they consider minimum dps for each vet trial & achievements

@ZOS_Kevin could you do that please?

That was 35k on a 3m or 6m dummy, not the trial dummy. That would be like 90k on the new pts dummy.

francesinhalover

MoreTune wrote: »

I understand that ESO is catered towards the casual player and that 80-90% of players don’t care about optimization/end game meta builds. But the fact that 3 consecutive patches have made such drastic changes to the meta builds is honestly outrageous at this point.

We went from complete hybridization with ascending tide, to high isle and stamina dominance, and now with the change to light attacks — I am sure there is going to be yet another change to gear and builds.

How are we supposed to keep up with this? Wasted transmutations stones, wasted upgrade materials. Literally 3 patches in a row now.

I’m all for changing the meta, but this game literally deviates so hard EVERY SINGLE PATCH. How are we supposed to keep up?!

Thats why new dungeons even on normal diff have insta kills,
arenas have instakills,
trials are insanely hard for any casual up to impossible lvls also have instakills and dps checks,
and vet dlc dungeons even if a casual got carried all cosmetic rewards are locked behind no death runs also instakills and dps checks.
Whats that want to farm gear? Oh no its not perfected i bet that extra stat would help casual dmg!! ,
want dro m atrah skin? Too badd!

I legit fail to see how eso is catered towards casuals when 50% of the games content is impossible to do.

I know how to weave and cant even do 35%-40% of this games content, imagine full "casuals".

Sahidom

I honestly do not understand the Light and Heavy attack changes. I understand their "Hibernization" craze minimized the rote weapon choices, in favor of hybrid builds; but they scaled the damage on the highest Offense Resource pool. At this point, I strongly question the quantified value for having weapon and spell damage attributes on the character sheet. Aside from the coefficient variable in skill and determining item set proc damage performance, the developers are writing this attribute out of the game. The fixed Light and Heavy attack have basically nullified the purpose of those character attributes. Considering, an unarmed yokel will now do as much damage as the one who equipped v160 legendary weapon. To me, this makes no sense, and does not explain what their long-term play could possibly be, when such changes remove importance of certain characteristics from the character and the swath of item sets.

The only plausible explanation for the Light and Heavy attack is to introduce Unarmed Combat skill tree. Even still, the developers are still writing Weapon and Spell damage characteristic out of the game.

AvalonRanger

MoreTune wrote: »

I understand that ESO is catered towards the casual player and that 80-90% of players don’t care about optimization/end game meta builds...

Every ESO combat is casual contents, because marketing image of this game is not hardcore combat game.
So, 90% of ESO player is causal, neither MMO zealot and PVPver. People just want to play all Tamriel version
of "Skyrim".

I love public dungeon rather than group dungeon. Because, no one complain against my behavior,
and can do it by very slow pacing. (pick up book, pick up crafting material, or just take a picture of landscape)


ESO combat is old simulation game rather than pure combat game from action game fan view point.(Imao)
Simply say it's a boring. Time wasting contents, or just decoration for RPG experience.

As a one of action game fan, I feel the character building matter of ESO and all of combat gimmick of this game
is hilariously joke. There're no such mechanic in contemporary cut edge action game anymore. The node
unlock style skill tree is still popular, but not like ESO. It's not just simple damage mitigation or damage burst
like ESO. But more symbiotic mechanics with complex environment design.

I hate every combat of ESO...but it's OK. My biggest interest against ESO is not combat at all.

ZOS showed us each race's culture, homeland, or mysterious argonian's life cycle. It's a good enough.
I respect environment artist of ZOS, especially in DLC zone. When I was playing Skyrim, I wanted to see
cat people's homeland. The warm sand Khajiit's homeland. And, finally I met them.

I just don't want to bind myself by MMO limitation.

sbam66

i have played this game since launch & that’s how it’s always been. it’s pretty normal, you gear up for the meta gear & a few months later the meta will shift & you will have to adapt or be left behind. experienced players however find it much easier to adapt to these changes, they can use less than optimal setups & do just fine in pvp. also another advantage is that experienced players know how to make gold fast & have gold available for new patches.

I can definitely see how this game can sometimes be discouraging to players. I have went through that myself, a year break here, a year break there helped me & I enjoy the game more now bc of that.

Holycannoli

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

But weren't those vet hardmode trials regularly cleared years ago when DPS was generally much, much lower?

Yes, by a select few players.

They claim they want to increase accessibility and yet it's a more accessible game right now than it will be with this PTS patch.

If they truly want to increase accessibility and lower the ceiling without also lowering the floor they have to stick to just the LA + HA nerf and that's it. No other nerfs. The average player does not weave perfectly or probably even often, so boom it's done, you've successfully increased accessibility and lowered the ceiling without nerfing the average player.

starkerealm

Pevey wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

But the dps checks in vMoL were for when 35k was the top figure……

So it would be interesting to ask the trial devs just what they consider minimum dps for each vet trial & achievements

@ZOS_Kevin could you do that please?

That was 35k on a 3m or 6m dummy, not the trial dummy. That would be like 90k on the new pts dummy.

Technically, it would have been about 55k - 60k on a trial dummy, if they'd existed back then. But, your point stands.

MidniteOwl1913

Holycannoli wrote: »

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

But weren't those vet hardmode trials regularly cleared years ago when DPS was generally much, much lower?

Yes, by a select few players.

They claim they want to increase accessibility and yet it's a more accessible game right now than it will be with this PTS patch.

If they truly want to increase accessibility and lower the ceiling without also lowering the floor they have to stick to just the LA + HA nerf and that's it. No other nerfs. The average player does not weave perfectly or probably even often, so boom it's done, you've successfully increased accessibility and lowered the ceiling without nerfing the average player.

Yes the stated goals don't match the proposed solution, at all. Until someone at ZOS explains exactly how nerfing damage across the board like this makes vet content more available to an average player like me I won't believe that that is what the changes are about.

Krayl

I don't have an opinion on the upcoming changes yet; I'll wait and see how the pts notes go.

That being said, it's completely absurd that this game changes it's combat system as often as what seems like twice a year. Other MMO's have sweeping overhauls of course, to streamline things based on new information and changing expectations, but this is the only game I've played where the devs never seem to be happy and area constantly tinkering with everything as if this game were still in beta.

This game has been out for over 8 years and we are still dealing with light attacks and dot times? Really?

If DPS is too high, reduce overall damage by a certain % and call it good and leave us along so we can play our freaking characters instead of reinventing the wheel every 6 months. All these changes do is sow division in the community and cause guilds to regress as people get frustrated and play less.

Leave us alone!

EmEm_Oh

MoreTune wrote: »

I understand that ESO is catered towards the casual player and that 80-90% of players don’t care about optimization/end game meta builds. But the fact that 3 consecutive patches have made such drastic changes to the meta builds is honestly outrageous at this point.

We went from complete hybridization with ascending tide, to high isle and stamina dominance, and now with the change to light attacks — I am sure there is going to be yet another change to gear and builds.

How are we supposed to keep up with this? Wasted transmutations stones, wasted upgrade materials. Literally 3 patches in a row now.

I’m all for changing the meta, but this game literally deviates so hard EVERY SINGLE PATCH. How are we supposed to keep up?!

Yup, that's why mythics are not worth grinding. This happens all the time. New DLC or chapter comes out, buffed mythics and sets, then 3wks, on schedule...they get changed so drastically, the grinding time was just a waste of time.

Xinihp

Ittrix wrote: »

Ironically multiple of my off-meta builds have been or will be completed gutted in the future.

I had a vampire tank that would use vampiric frenzy to get a bit more damage and be able to parse decently while still being a tank with 40k HP and heavy armor on. Because the skill would drain my HP so drastically the heal was very strong too. It's effectively been cut into a third now and the heal is potato since it doesn't stack now. RIP vamp tank.

This is precisely why I no longer have ANY faith in this design team.

That build you describe sounds really fun! What seems to be happening, is instead of buffing up the low end, ZOS is deliberately targeting fun builds and things that work and DESTROYING them as some misguided idea of balance.

I am convinced this current team are not qualified to work at a AAA studio. No offense, I'm sure they're decent people. But a business is not a charity. Someone should remind Microsoft of this. I would not hire this team to work on a Kickstarter indie game I was planning let alone an industry leading franchise product.

These are just amateur decisions. That isn't bashing it is objective fact backed by DECADES of research into what works in this industry (and what doesn't). Pros don't look at the data on what works and what doesn't and go with what doesn't because it's easier. It will ALWAYS end badly.

Balancing by constantly beating down the top fun and effective builds instead of fixing what is wrong with the lower tier is EASIER, but it is TERRIBLE for the game, for fun, and for customer retention.

I'm sure out in the lobby there's a subscription to "MMO Monthly" where they discuss these fundamental principles of consumer psychology in gaming. But I would expect anyone working for a AAA multi billion studio not to need a refresher course on this stuff.

Necrotech_Master

Ittrix wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

light and heavy changes i could see

not a fan of the dot or some of the class skill changes though, although some others are good

personally i usually play a little off meta, so my builds dont change all that much between patches unless i feel like overhauling a character that, to me, is underperforming lol

several of my toons havent changed builds in years, i maybe change 1 build per year at best out of my 10 toons

Ironically multiple of my off-meta builds have been or will be completed gutted in the future.

I had a vampire tank that would use vampiric frenzy to get a bit more damage and be able to parse decently while still being a tank with 40k HP and heavy armor on. Because the skill would drain my HP so drastically the heal was very strong too. It's effectively been cut into a third now and the heal is potato since it doesn't stack now. RIP vamp tank.

Same goes for my cutting dive stamden. If the PTS notes go through, she will have to unslot the skill and rework her rotation entirely.

based on what ive read on the pts, im fully expecting a dps loss on most of my toons, even my tanks that were able to squeeze out 8-12k dps

one of those tanks gets most of his dmg from cleave with the masters 2h, so i dont expect that to change very much at all for him (blastbones and masters 2h were his staple dps rotation)

my main being a DK was barely hitting 8k-10k dps because of how proc sets mostly scaled off dmg, he lost almost 50% of the dps from the valkyn skoria set he was using back when they did that change, with the current changes, i dont know if he will even hit 6-8k dps and i might have to look into adjusting his entire backbar

my main point in my post was using off meta builds in the past generally helped me steer clear of a lot of the meta nerfs, but in this case U35 PTS is basically a wonton across the board dmg nerf, and even more punishing for DoT builds with the 2 sec delay between ticks

ArcVelarian

It's either this or vertical progression. At this rate I'd prefer vertical progression.

carlos424

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

But weren't those vet hardmode trials regularly cleared years ago when DPS was generally much, much lower?

Yes, by a select few players.

They claim they want to increase accessibility and yet it's a more accessible game right now than it will be with this PTS patch.

If they truly want to increase accessibility and lower the ceiling without also lowering the floor they have to stick to just the LA + HA nerf and that's it. No other nerfs. The average player does not weave perfectly or probably even often, so boom it's done, you've successfully increased accessibility and lowered the ceiling without nerfing the average player.

Yes the stated goals don't match the proposed solution, at all. Until someone at ZOS explains exactly how nerfing damage across the board like this makes vet content more available to an average player like me I won't believe that that is what the changes are about.

It’s assumed that the average player is bad, does not know how to light attack weave, and cannot keep up with 10 second damage over time skills. Therefore, nerfing these skills, which they were not performing efficiently in the first place, will have a greater effect on players who do it better, and a lesser effect on players who do them poorly. Sounds bad when you hear it like that, right? But that is it in a nutshell.
So rather than try to make people better, the plan is to make the top end worse, hopefully, not effect the bottom end too much. I guess the damage over time (dumb down) is designed to help the lower end get better. Not sure that was the problem though.
Sure, top end damage needs to be controlled better. Nerf light attack damage, sure, needs it. Nerf a few skills that are way overperforming (crystal weapon), sure. Maybe nerf some of the top end sets that end gamers use, and that require more skill to get the most benefit (relequen, coral riptide, etc.), sure. That alone brings damage down 10k+. Then continue to tweak from there. Why so much at once? That’s the real problem. I think they plan to hit it hard now, not have to deal with it for a while, let the power creep back up, and hit it again every couple of years. But that’s just my opinion.

Ragnarok0130

ArcVelarian wrote: »

It's either this or vertical progression. At this rate I'd prefer vertical progression.

No there is a third option they could always make no changes and stick to what they committed to earlier and the player base would have been quite happy about that since it's exactly what we expected at this point after the chapter release.

The dev team's all over the board about the changes too. The changes are for "accessibility" and then the accessibility changes dramatically lower the damage for the players it was supposed to help get into vet content. Then we have the dev team previously saying they were done with sweeping changes and that the future was buffing and nerfing things gradually and then we get them shaking up the etcha sketch yet again. All of the saying one thing and doing something quite different (not to mention the recurring frequency of said sweeping changes) is the driving force behind the monumental amount of negativity we're seeing across all of social media to this round of PTS changes not just the changes themselves - although the changes are quite objectionable. The community's hit a boiling point due to the long term behavior and inconsistency of the dev team, and some of their personal social media responses have just added fuel to the fires of discontent.

Pevey

starkerealm wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

But the dps checks in vMoL were for when 35k was the top figure……

So it would be interesting to ask the trial devs just what they consider minimum dps for each vet trial & achievements

@ZOS_Kevin could you do that please?

That was 35k on a 3m or 6m dummy, not the trial dummy. That would be like 90k on the new pts dummy.

Technically, it would have been about 55k - 60k on a trial dummy, if they'd existed back then. But, your point stands.

I don’t think so. And definitely not on the pts dummy.

o_Primate_o

DOTs in a dd's perspective. ok, lay down this dot, that one, now this one, now this none, now this one, only 9 more to go then i can use spammable. dang it! boss moved. start over - lay down this dont, now that one...

o_Primate_o

^ (20-second dots) ^

starkerealm

Pevey wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

But the dps checks in vMoL were for when 35k was the top figure……

So it would be interesting to ask the trial devs just what they consider minimum dps for each vet trial & achievements

@ZOS_Kevin could you do that please?

That was 35k on a 3m or 6m dummy, not the trial dummy. That would be like 90k on the new pts dummy.

Technically, it would have been about 55k - 60k on a trial dummy, if they'd existed back then. But, your point stands.

I don’t think so. And definitely not on the pts dummy.

Oh, yeah, no. The PTS dummy would... I'm guessing here, but it would probably be ~70k. The comfortable would be to say 66k because, "lolz major slayer," but it's a bit higher than that. Unless there's more, "oddities," with the dummy than I've realized.

Androrix

MoreTune wrote: »

I understand that ESO is catered towards the casual player and that 80-90% of players don’t care about optimization/end game meta builds. But the fact that 3 consecutive patches have made such drastic changes to the meta builds is honestly outrageous at this point.

We went from complete hybridization with ascending tide, to high isle and stamina dominance, and now with the change to light attacks — I am sure there is going to be yet another change to gear and builds.

How are we supposed to keep up with this? Wasted transmutations stones, wasted upgrade materials. Literally 3 patches in a row now.

I’m all for changing the meta, but this game literally deviates so hard EVERY SINGLE PATCH. How are we supposed to keep up?!

Indeed.

I enjoy building a character. You work hard with the skill mixes/armor sets to achieve the best result for you. Why bother if they are just going to drag everyone to the same level except the exceptional players, and if that build is changed every few months by a patch? So many of the skills and armor buffs are redundant now (especially after oakensoul). Most armor sets were already redundant and nobody uses them.

One patch puts in a terrible power creep. The next tries a ham handed fix that then renders all your build efforts pointless, and that requires another artificial patch to correct again.

Sorry, none of this is fine tuning.

MidniteOwl1913

carlos424 wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

But weren't those vet hardmode trials regularly cleared years ago when DPS was generally much, much lower?

Yes, by a select few players.

They claim they want to increase accessibility and yet it's a more accessible game right now than it will be with this PTS patch.

If they truly want to increase accessibility and lower the ceiling without also lowering the floor they have to stick to just the LA + HA nerf and that's it. No other nerfs. The average player does not weave perfectly or probably even often, so boom it's done, you've successfully increased accessibility and lowered the ceiling without nerfing the average player.

Yes the stated goals don't match the proposed solution, at all. Until someone at ZOS explains exactly how nerfing damage across the board like this makes vet content more available to an average player like me I won't believe that that is what the changes are about.

It’s assumed that the average player is bad, does not know how to light attack weave, and cannot keep up with 10 second damage over time skills. Therefore, nerfing these skills, which they were not performing efficiently in the first place, will have a greater effect on players who do it better, and a lesser effect on players who do them poorly. Sounds bad when you hear it like that, right? But that is it in a nutshell.
So rather than try to make people better, the plan is to make the top end worse, hopefully, not effect the bottom end too much. I guess the damage over time (dumb down) is designed to help the lower end get better. Not sure that was the problem though.
Sure, top end damage needs to be controlled better. Nerf light attack damage, sure, needs it. Nerf a few skills that are way overperforming (crystal weapon), sure. Maybe nerf some of the top end sets that end gamers use, and that require more skill to get the most benefit (relequen, coral riptide, etc.), sure. That alone brings damage down 10k+. Then continue to tweak from there. Why so much at once? That’s the real problem. I think they plan to hit it hard now, not have to deal with it for a while, let the power creep back up, and hit it again every couple of years. But that’s just my opinion.

Yeah, something like that I guess. With a more though reading of the patch notes, it seems they really do think they can reduce damage "bloat" (their word not mine) and help lower-tier players at the same time.

"The main reason for streamlining these values was to reduce the bloat of damage production they can provide at the high level, reinforcing an intense necessity to perfectly “light weave” to produce viable damage, while simultaneously retaining their damage levels at the low end for those who rely on them to not be negatively affected. In doing so, we’ve also been able to adjust item sets that augment these effects to be much more impactful without the concern of creating higher burst potential in PvP environments, helping accessibility in all environments."

But "adjust set that augment these effects", that seems to me that they are saying we have added ways to mitigate the pain of these changes with sets. The problem with that is the people who will figure out what sets, know how get the sets and know the best way to use them is not the causal low-level player. I don't know it just seems poorly thought out.

tactx

You know what I love about MMO's that fascinate me is how they NEVER listen to the players. No matter how many protests, how many people they ban, comments hidden, novels written about how it should be based on mathematical formulas far beyond what most people can comprehend, they still roll out the most idiotic patches ever. It's pretty impressive.

When I get excited to see the ZOS icon indicating they responded to a topic about something sensitive, it's never anything helpful. It's always

"We have recently removed some unnecessary back-and-forth and non-constructive posts from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding."

It's unfortunate there aren't other good mmos out currently so we either quit or just deal with it until something better comes along.

Kisakee

Calm down Anakin! No need to be upset absout not getting the rank of master, we all are nothing but disciples to the devs.

Amphithoe

I gave up on end game ESO a couple of years ago.

Now I play the game as a slightly sub-par single player TES game. Questing, reading lore books, furnishing my small home in Kragenmoor, talking to NPC's. Every now and then me and my friend do a normal dungeon just for the quest.

I run whatever gear I find fitting to my class and character background, these kinds of things are appealing to me, but will never permit me to hit high enough numbers to achieve and complete any veteran content beyond base game dungeons.

I get it, it's a MMO first and foremost, but to me the TES universe is what draws me to the game.

ESO is a game to play between SP BGS titles for me, and I'll drop it the moment Starfield releases, probably pick it up again some time after the release of Starfield, then drop it again when TES:6 releases.

shadyjane62

KnightsMentor wrote: »

I gave up on end game ESO a couple of years ago.

Now I play the game as a slightly sub-par single player TES game. Questing, reading lore books, furnishing my small home in Kragenmoor, talking to NPC's. Every now and then me and my friend do a normal dungeon just for the quest.

I run whatever gear I find fitting to my class and character background, these kinds of things are appealing to me, but will never permit me to hit high enough numbers to achieve and complete any veteran content beyond base game dungeons.

I get it, it's a MMO first and foremost, but to me the TES universe is what draws me to the game.

ESO is a game to play between SP BGS titles for me, and I'll drop it the moment Starfield releases, probably pick it up again some time after the release of Starfield, then drop it again when TES:6 releases.

To quote my husband. Eso is last Bethesda Game we will ever buy.

barney2525

I dunno. What's so " Horrible " about the crafted sets ? Why is it a directive that " the Best " gear MUST be farmed ?

Oh.... you can't hit that very top number for DPS ? ...

Who cares? You can do enough damage to kill the Boss. And That is all that is required in this game. Is it a little more work? Maybe. But I don't understand the arbitrary " We Must Have THIS gear or we Can't Play " mentality.

starkerealm

barney2525 wrote: »

I dunno. What's so " Horrible " about the crafted sets ? Why is it a directive that " the Best " gear MUST be farmed ?

Oh.... you can't hit that very top number for DPS ? ...

Who cares? You can do enough damage to kill the Boss. And That is all that is required in this game. Is it a little more work? Maybe. But I don't understand the arbitrary " We Must Have THIS gear or we Can't Play " mentality.

The PTS patch is pushing you in that direction, though. Sets led to power creep, so instead of bringing those sets into line, they nerfed the baseline for your character.