Screenshot showcasing all of the ToT balance changes on PTS

PinkApple

At first glance looks like Prowling Shadow as well as the Hlaalu agents got the most love, while Scratch and some of the Saint Pelin cards got decently meaningful nerfs.

What do you guys think about the changes?

Psilent

Surprised Currency Exchange didn’t get nerfed. I feel that card is very powerful and has won me many games via patron victory.

Personofsecrets

Unfortunately, it looks like game data was used for these changes. Fine in some instances, but baffling for powerful cards that fewer players mistakenly don't take.

PinkApple

Psilent wrote: »

Surprised Currency Exchange didn’t get nerfed. I feel that card is very powerful and has won me many games via patron victory.

Yeah in my personal opinion Currency Exchange is the best card in the game! Definitely expect to see some nerfs to the card in future patches. Is possible it gets added to this patch even, this is all preliminary and subject to change anyways.

JJMaxx1980

I think there’s a lot of base four patron cards balances because we have a lot of data on those. I’m glad they didn’t touch Dreaming Cave, my favorite OP card.

Katheriah

Psilent wrote: »

Surprised Currency Exchange didn’t get nerfed. I feel that card is very powerful and has won me many games via patron victory.

That's a pretty good card.

I also somehow expected the Rally and Armory power to be split up and divided over combo's. Not sure if just making them a little bit more expensive is going to do the trick.

Oddemus

Are these live changes?

Woeler

Legions Arrival was also changed, this was not documented in the patch notes. The card now has the following:
Activation: 2 gold
Combo 2: 3 power

redspecter23

The most surprising thing to me was a lack of any mention of the Orgnum patron effect. There seems to be an attempt to slow down the game a bit, but with no changes to the Orgnum deck at all (maybe they are coming later?), I'm left a bit confused as that's a rather hot topic right now among players.

DinoZavr

Orgnum patron needs tuning.
Legion Arrival is not fixed.
we will see the effects in PTS.

AnduinTryggva

No Orgnum changes? This needed modification with highest priority.

Jaimeh

redspecter23 wrote: »

The most surprising thing to me was a lack of any mention of the Orgnum patron effect. There seems to be an attempt to slow down the game a bit, but with no changes to the Orgnum deck at all (maybe they are coming later?), I'm left a bit confused as that's a rather hot topic right now among players.

That was the change I was expecting to see the most, currently it's one of the most unbalanced things about the game, it's very odd they didn't address it.

PinkApple

Oddemus wrote: »

Are these live changes?

They are on live on PTS, but live servers will wait about 6 weeks before these ship!

Katheriah wrote: »

Psilent wrote: »

Surprised Currency Exchange didn’t get nerfed. I feel that card is very powerful and has won me many games via patron victory.

That's a pretty good card.

I also somehow expected the Rally and Armory power to be split up and divided over combo's. Not sure if just making them a little bit more expensive is going to do the trick.

I also would have preferred those style of nerfs to rally/armory.

sekou_trayvond

The additional cost to Armory is huge and sorely needed. At 5 gold it was just too easy to snatch this card in the first hand or two if it opens in the Tavern. Rally I understand increasing the cost as well, but the difference is if Rally starts in the Tavern it's going to sit there until someone is able to Barter/Celarus it out. Takes a few hands to get the necessary 7 gold.

Midnight Raid change is modest but reasonable. Now if you pull two of these monsters together u will only slap 10 power down instead of 12. Lol.

Scratch increase is curious. I mean, if you have a bunch of bird cards already, sure, super helpful. But as an early Crows buy? Chancey proposition, seems to me. But that increases strategery so that's a plus.

Orgnum needs a rework. Mashing a patron button (whether winning or losing) isn't enjoyable gameplay and doesn't provoke much strategy- more a game of chicken.

Tuonra2

Psilent wrote: »

Surprised Currency Exchange didn’t get nerfed. I feel that card is very powerful and has won me many games via patron victory.

This is a pretty great card yes, but at 7gold you have the time to manipulate the tavern and try to get rid of it if you fear your opponent will get 7 gold first, otherwise, I play a lot of Psijic and you can 100% deny patron victory by not playing/instaselling agents.

Katheriah wrote: »

I also somehow expected the Rally and Armory power to be split up and divided over combo's. Not sure if just making them a little bit more expensive is going to do the trick.

The armoury change is huuuuge, now it rewards better early gold game, as it is impossible for player 1 to buy turn1. Rally at 8 will also significantly delay the first rally which is huge as making a writ on turns 1 and 2 was enough to get a lucky 7g draw on turn 3 and snatch a rally.

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

No Orgnum changes? This needed modification with highest priority.

To be honest, I don't play Orgnum, and I win most of my games vs Orgnum players. Yes the gameplay is boring, but if you know the counter it's easy to force the Orgnum player into a position where they can't just continue the patron spam strategy. If they do so anyway you win, and if they abandon it then you get an interesting game again or maybe you just take the patron and start spamming yourself.

Tuonra2

Holy crap tho a buff to Oathman is not what I expected, and buffs to Rahjin .
Rahjin was already really powerful and it was the gold cards and the agents that made it powerful, yet they decide those are what needed buffs??
The psijic changes are cool, and those cards did need help.
Raid change is welcome, this will slow a '1 raid turn 1' victory down by at least a turn. As before 7 power per combo meant victory in at most 6 draws of raid, and with deck thinning that could be really quick. Now it'll take at least 7 draws of raid which is a good buffer for the opponent to match the prestige, but still powerful enough repeated pressure to force a response.

DewiMorgan

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Unfortunately, it looks like game data was used for these changes. Fine in some instances, but baffling for powerful cards that fewer players mistakenly don't take.

To me, this is the only thing that can explain the nerf to Scratch - the most useless card in the Crow deck, but crow-heavy players are 1) very likely to win unless their opponent dominates with power cards, and 2) VERY likely to have picked this up early on unless they were deliberately avoiding it.

So, from game data, it'll look like this card is associated with many wins, when in fact it may have made very little difference to the outcome of any of those games: if it added 8 power from successful combos through the game, it'll also have prevented other cards being drawn, which in a well-curated deck would most likely have been more useful than this one.

Personofsecrets

DewiMorgan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Unfortunately, it looks like game data was used for these changes. Fine in some instances, but baffling for powerful cards that fewer players mistakenly don't take.

To me, this is the only thing that can explain the nerf to Scratch - the most useless card in the Crow deck, but crow-heavy players are 1) very likely to win unless their opponent dominates with power cards, and 2) VERY likely to have picked this up early on unless they were deliberately avoiding it.

So, from game data, it'll look like this card is associated with many wins, when in fact it may have made very little difference to the outcome of any of those games: if it added 8 power from successful combos through the game, it'll also have prevented other cards being drawn, which in a well-curated deck would most likely have been more useful than this one.

It would seem to explain a number of other buffs and nerfs too. Data can be good to use, but has to be married with other logic/feelings as to help form the most educated choice.

A number of fields work this way. It isn't only data fed through a software that makes the best choice. It's such data, but also human judgement as an added layer.

Oathman doesn't get picked up that much, but the card is very good. So it get's buffed. Luxury exports and currency exchange may be too good, but they aren't always picked up by opponents who prefer a combo card or power generating card. So they don't get nerfed.

Midnight raid get nerfed and that's fine. Everyone takes it and tries to abuse the card! On the other hand, imperial spoils is a very good card and still get's buffed.

Ogrum I can imagine going untouched since it is relatively difficult to obtain. But this development is despite Ogrum play patterns being not the most fun even though there may not be a ton of people who have that deck.

DewiMorgan

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Ogrum I can imagine going untouched since it is relatively difficult to obtain. But this development is despite Ogrum play patterns being not the most fun even though there may not be a ton of people who have that deck.

Oh, good call - this may well explain the lack of movement on that deck. Hopefully that'll change as they get more data, and more people get the deck: it's early days yet.

Thinking forward, I'm kinda excited to see what new decks or card upgrades they bring in future DLC. And wondering how the UI will have to change to handle that.

Hawkeye

I am so glad they are not bowing to the Orgnum haters. The deck is fun. All the decks are fun.