Why does the assassin class in this game underperform in single target?

spacefracking

Surely there is a way to improve nightblade thematically in pve without making it overpowered in pve?

The change to blood mist or whatnot that only works in pve is the easy way out, but there could be other ways.

I am unsure why an assassin would need to run a backbar entirely composed of AOE abilities, rather than single target dots buffed specifically for the class.

Holycannoli

They used to be great for it. I made a magblade many years ago for it and it's been gutted.

I got yelled at the other day for calling the assassin class an assassin class lol. Because apparently that's not what nightblades are all about, with their cloak-on-demand and single target debuff + damage abilities and the fact they're called nightblades and not nighthealers or nightknights.

Ok we need a nightknight class.

DrSlaughtr

They've whittled down NB damage to where we need proc sets while systematically changing sets we used to prevent us from using them. One reason is because despite the availability of over a dozen counters to the class in pvp, some players can't or won't use them, so those previously mentioned changes had to be made.

Stx

I thought stamblade dps was still competitive for single target? I know magblades are in the can

SeaUnicorn

Because Nighblade competitive advantage is Crit Chance + Crit Damage. With introduction of Crit Cap class got neutered and never got balanced to put its power back where it belongs.

spacefracking

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

Because Nighblade competitive advantage is Crit Chance + Crit Damage. With introduction of Crit Cap class got neutered and never got balanced to put its power back where it belongs.

I mean, the crit nerf didn't help, but this patch in particularly just dropped nb dps like 10%+. It's completely ridiculous. I'm lucky to have even gotten a 100k+ parse, when other classes doing 140k.

I've basically stopped doing trials because it's practically embarrassing how ridiculously the class performs.

The assassin deals the least single target damage, and thematically it fit perfectly with the cloak and dagger vibe of High Isle, just like the Deadlands fit with dragonknights' flame abilities (which were noted during their overhaul last year).

Basically broke the game for me gib nightblade ahug zos combat team pllzzz

AinSoph

Because it's barely been touched in the past couple of updates and the hybridization did not do it any favors. But hey, NB Healers are a thing because templars have 0 group utility

Everest_Lionheart

Meanwhile in vDSR while all my Necro buddies are dying on first boss after a few ticks holding fire or ice my Blade is barely feeling the damage between swallow soul, entropy and bow procs.

Guess that’s the price Cro pays for all that cleave damage. Weird that Blade used to be the squishy class, now it can outlast every other DPS if you play it right.

spacefracking

AinSoph wrote: »

Because it's barely been touched in the past couple of updates and the hybridization did not do it any favors. But hey, NB Healers are a thing because templars have 0 group utility

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Meanwhile in vDSR while all my Necro buddies are dying on first boss after a few ticks holding fire or ice my Blade is barely feeling the damage between swallow soul, entropy and bow procs.

Guess that’s the price Cro pays for all that cleave damage. Weird that Blade used to be the squishy class, now it can outlast every other DPS if you play it right.

Yeah, it can be argued that for solo-ing, it's still a (waning) performer. But to be totally frank, a lot of that is due to the soul harvest passive (if we're considering its previously overperforming vate scores). And except for this bizarre newfound healer strength, not much of this translates well to group or much other content (since overland is a *bit* of a joke, and soloing non-dlc vet dungeons is out of date by about 10 years of content).

It's just not good for single targeting assassination, and one of its skill trees is actually named "assassination".

But yeah, agreed, I feel your pain on classes that have had their long term roles made nearly obsolete.

I'm just particularly upset at nightblade cuz it just doesn't make any sense thematically, to the extent that it's the *worst* performing at the role it should be good at (and the methods by which it should be good at them, i.e., a backbar of aoes).

spacefracking

Stx wrote: »

I thought stamblade dps was still competitive for single target? I know magblades are in the can

Among stam classes its middling at best in the current meta. Comparing mag and stam performance right now is apples to oranges though.

spacefracking

Just as another example, on eso logs, the first entry for a magblade-ish build for the new twins fight in vDSR doesn't appear until 564th place for damage, and it's still leaning on deadly cloak and stampede.

Suligost

Holycannoli wrote: »

They used to be great for it. I made a magblade many years ago for it and it's been gutted.

I got yelled at the other day for calling the assassin class an assassin class lol. Because apparently that's not what nightblades are all about, with their cloak-on-demand and single target debuff + damage abilities and the fact they're called nightblades and not nighthealers or nightknights.

Ok we need a nightknight class.

I want nightknight. Begone with that shadow cloak working only in molesting lost newbies in Cyro. It holds back any buffs to this class.

TybaltKaine

Flanking matters. Nightblades get tons of benefits from flanking in combat, but hardly anyone ever considers this when playing PVE content and just kind of goes face to face with mobs instead of using tactics. Have a companion attack first and use stealth to get into position. If playing in a group, let someone else initiate combat and then flank. For solo play, try using more weapon skills instead of relying on class skills, as they aren't going to do a lot of good in a straight up fight.

Nightblades are assassins, play like an assassin.

spacefracking

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Flanking matters. Nightblades get tons of benefits from flanking in combat, but hardly anyone ever considers this when playing PVE content and just kind of goes face to face with mobs instead of using tactics. Have a companion attack first and use stealth to get into position. If playing in a group, let someone else initiate combat and then flank. For solo play, try using more weapon skills instead of relying on class skills, as they aren't going to do a lot of good in a straight up fight.

Nightblades are assassins, play like an assassin.

Nightblades get a single PVE benefit from flanking that is beneficial. An extra 2974 pen.

This is a paltry benefit. The best way it can be used is by using one of the nightblade's massively nerfed stuns, going and standing behind it, letting dots tick I guess? And then break the stun immediately with direct damage. Which really doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you consider the other tools in the nightblade's toolbelt, and their strength.

The other (kind of hilarious) way this (again, very minor) benefit can be used, is to run around large mobs that have abilities with unusually long cast times, via swift trait, the steed, or ring of the wild hunt (all of which require reducing damage potential), and then AT BEST get 1 or 2 ticks per dot, and if you're really on your game, somehow manage to line up an incap/soul harvest with an assassin's will bow proc, which... i mean, 99.9% of people can't do this reliably on dummies let alone in combat.

So, basically, no. Your first point regarding flanking ability is essentially invalid.

To address your second point regarding using companions to pull aggro, and then assassinate from stealth (which again, because of damage issues and basically everything else, is only suited for pvp):
1. Companions simply cannot handle mobs of any real significance or in numbers that allow a nightblade to perform well
2. I was going to write a second item for a rebuttal of this idea, but I really don't think it's worth the time analyzing the numerous other drawbacks of this strategy and the general weakness of companions in doing anything at more than what would best be described as "very middling" in a pve context.

Finally, the last point. In any group content, if the tank isn't properly managing penetration for the whole group, or all dps is magblades and losing group buffs, this, again, very paltry 2974 pen is essentially pointless

So, in conclusion. No, this is not in any way a valid rebuttal of nightblade thematic inconsistency in pve content of any sort.

spacefracking

Suligost wrote: »

I want nightknight. Begone with that shadow cloak working only in molesting lost newbies in Cyro. It holds back any buffs to this class.

Lol. Lmao xD yes

spacefracking

Really wish I'd bumped my thread before commenting on the necrotic resurrection of a four year old 45 page, unparseable, nightblade thread, but oh well. Wait...

TybaltKaine

Ignoring the benefit of stun and off balance which are guaranteed from flank is one way to make your point, I guess. I'm guessing you probably don't use Mark Target to start the fight either.

Mark Target, stealth, flank, sneak attack, fight over.

Play the assassin as an assassin and the "issues" go away.

spacefracking

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Ignoring the benefit of stun and off balance which are guaranteed from flank is one way to make your point, I guess. I'm guessing you probably don't use Mark Target to start the fight either.

Mark Target, stealth, flank, sneak attack, fight over.

Play the assassin as an assassin and the "issues" go away.

In what pve combat situation is this a valid strategy?

TybaltKaine

Here is an unedited capture of myself using this in overland PVE content. It's a 10-minute video, but I have jumped to the fun parts. Sorry for how long it takes me to fight things, I have severe arthritis in my hands and have to use a controller. There is a reason I main healer (as a NB if that matters).

Full video:
https://youtu.be/cxmy0yEGY7U

Here is a quicker version where I fight a River Troll with Ember, then a Minotaur Shaman without her: https://youtu.be/cxmy0yEGY7U?t=415

You can fight things just fine using these methods, it just takes a little longer and isn't as flashy. In dungeons you would focus on positioning and attacking from the flank and stealth to guarantee crits and set enemies off balance, allowing an advantage for the other DPS.

In Trials, you would likely want to do this from range in most boss fights as melee combat is too fluid to really this (at least for me and my hands, I dunno about younger/more dextrous folks). This even works great on non NB characters from range, I have a stealth Warden archer that I solo content with regularly. I imagine folks with better reflexes, rotations and parses can do this far more dynamically than I can demonstrate here.

The full video has a quick look at my stats and gear, including my CP allocation if that matters. This is a level 8 toon, so no Oakensoul to help me here. In fact, this toon doesn't even have Mark Target unlocked yet.

Hope this visualization helps to make my point clearer. Play style matters.

EDIT: The second video should start at the 6:55 mark, if it doesn't sorry, I haven't used YouTube in almost a decade.

spacefracking

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Here is an unedited capture of myself using this in overland PVE content. It's a 10-minute video, but I have jumped to the fun parts. Sorry for how long it takes me to fight things, I have severe arthritis in my hands and have to use a controller. There is a reason I main healer (as a NB if that matters).

Full video:
https://youtu.be/cxmy0yEGY7U

Here is a quicker version where I fight a River Troll with Ember, then a Minotaur Shaman without her: https://youtu.be/cxmy0yEGY7U?t=415

You can fight things just fine using these methods, it just takes a little longer and isn't as flashy. In dungeons you would focus on positioning and attacking from the flank and stealth to guarantee crits and set enemies off balance, allowing an advantage for the other DPS.

In Trials, you would likely want to do this from range in most boss fights as melee combat is too fluid to really this (at least for me and my hands, I dunno about younger/more dextrous folks). This even works great on non NB characters from range, I have a stealth Warden archer that I solo content with regularly. I imagine folks with better reflexes, rotations and parses can do this far more dynamically than I can demonstrate here.

The full video has a quick look at my stats and gear, including my CP allocation if that matters. This is a level 8 toon, so no Oakensoul to help me here. In fact, this toon doesn't even have Mark Target unlocked yet.

Hope this visualization helps to make my point clearer. Play style matters.

EDIT: The second video should start at the 6:55 mark, if it doesn't sorry, I haven't used YouTube in almost a decade.

PREFACE: I am not some gamer troll forum jerk, I swear, and a point by point discussion can be had if you so wish.

However, references the specific encounters do not highly intersect with the topic at hand here.

I would be more than happy to demonstrate, show, or whatever you would like, the issues, and specifically, the relative issue regarding thematic consistency for the nightblade class.

AS AN IMPORTANT ADDENDUM I have read (and parsed) the reply, however these situations may not be the best representation of the issues underlying the discussion I was trying to elicit here.

I empathize with your passion regarding the nightblade class, and this discussion, demonstrated through your videos, but can not engage with this content as part of the larger discussion as it is a different matter at hand.

The nightblade class can be played as an assassin, but it is not performant in doing so. That is the basic gist of what I am trying to convey here.

Let me know if you ever want to hook up for in game discussion or in-game content. I'm on PC/NA, and my handle is @spacefracking

dmnqwk

One of the large issues for Nightblades is their passives all require you to have abilities from each line.

Magblades need a siphoning skill for the 8% magicka
All Nightblades need as many Assassination skills to function because of the crit passives
Shadow aides survival in terms of major resolve/max health

You have 6 skills and need 1 siphoning and as many Assassination skills on the front bar. Easy?
Well, when you look at options you're talking:
Death Stroke ult - Yes
Assassin's blade execute - Yes
Teleport Strike - No (you can, but i'll explain more later)
Blur - No
Mark Target - No

Two of the assassination skills are nothing to do with damage, nor are they really worthy of fitting onto the bar just to buff your crit chance. This puts you down versus a Warden who will happily fit up to 5 animal companion abilities on frontbar (until u35 of course). If you choose to put Teleport Strike front you then can't put it backbar, meaning your ult spot is taken up by Death Stroke.

The Siphoning slotting issue means each bar really wants to have an ability slotted:
Soul Shred ult - ONLY if you need to slot the ability and can afford not to have a good ult here
Strife - Forcing you to use as your spammable even though it's almost 10% lower than it needs to be.
Malevolent Offering - No
Cripple - No
Siphoning Strikes - Maybe
Drain Power - Yes

Cripple is just such a poor choice due to high cost low damage and pointless magickasteal (considering you PAY all of that magicka up front just to try and get it back if the mob lives 10 seconds and you're attacking it)
Siphoning Strikes is an option of course, helping with regen and such... but the SHORT timer makes it a huge damage loss (if it lasts 60 seconds it would be decent) so having this is simply the siphoning ability you must have

Because it's viewed as utility, Drain Power has no damage bonus, causing it to spam maybe 10k per mob (very low compared to spin to win). Coupled with the best damage support coming from the Shadow Tree (Shade and Path) it seems as though the main problems occur from ESO not fixing the Nightblade passives.

Were I to offer a suggestion it would be something like:
Pressure Points changed to offer 876/1752 crit (4/8% instead of 2% per ability)
Drain Power to deal 50% more damage to enemies inflicted with 1 or more negative status
Change Cripple to provide an actual damage over time buff worthy of it being used (no baseline slow) then have 1 morph magicksteal and the other a stamina-based slow (with 15m range)
Allow Grim Focus to stack up to 6 times, so that you don't get screwed trying to use it on 4 charges, only for the light attack to fail due to latency or whatever and you simply refresh the ability (obviously this wont happen but eh, it'd be nice) and it still only uses 5 charges to fire.
Buff Teleport Strike so it's a full DoT (having class abilities suffer as horrible damage because they buff other things is just such a poor design. Class abilities shouldn't be so easily overshadowed by weapon/guild lines simply because they have a shiny extra... I mean you don't see Degeneration doing 10k/10 seconds just because it also has a 20 second buff!)

If this wont happen, the least they could do is put Concealed Weapon as an assassination ability and switch it with Blur - I mean surely Blur is shadowy while conceal weapons are used to... assassinate?

spacefracking

dmnqwk wrote: »

One of the large issues for Nightblades is their passives all require you to have abilities from each line.

Magblades need a siphoning skill for the 8% magicka
All Nightblades need as many Assassination skills to function because of the crit passives
Shadow aides survival in terms of major resolve/max health

You have 6 skills and need 1 siphoning and as many Assassination skills on the front bar. Easy?
Well, when you look at options you're talking:
Death Stroke ult - Yes
Assassin's blade execute - Yes
Teleport Strike - No (you can, but i'll explain more later)
Blur - No
Mark Target - No

Two of the assassination skills are nothing to do with damage, nor are they really worthy of fitting onto the bar just to buff your crit chance. This puts you down versus a Warden who will happily fit up to 5 animal companion abilities on frontbar (until u35 of course). If you choose to put Teleport Strike front you then can't put it backbar, meaning your ult spot is taken up by Death Stroke.

The Siphoning slotting issue means each bar really wants to have an ability slotted:
Soul Shred ult - ONLY if you need to slot the ability and can afford not to have a good ult here
Strife - Forcing you to use as your spammable even though it's almost 10% lower than it needs to be.
Malevolent Offering - No
Cripple - No
Siphoning Strikes - Maybe
Drain Power - Yes

Cripple is just such a poor choice due to high cost low damage and pointless magickasteal (considering you PAY all of that magicka up front just to try and get it back if the mob lives 10 seconds and you're attacking it)
Siphoning Strikes is an option of course, helping with regen and such... but the SHORT timer makes it a huge damage loss (if it lasts 60 seconds it would be decent) so having this is simply the siphoning ability you must have

Because it's viewed as utility, Drain Power has no damage bonus, causing it to spam maybe 10k per mob (very low compared to spin to win). Coupled with the best damage support coming from the Shadow Tree (Shade and Path) it seems as though the main problems occur from ESO not fixing the Nightblade passives.

Were I to offer a suggestion it would be something like:
Pressure Points changed to offer 876/1752 crit (4/8% instead of 2% per ability)
Drain Power to deal 50% more damage to enemies inflicted with 1 or more negative status
Change Cripple to provide an actual damage over time buff worthy of it being used (no baseline slow) then have 1 morph magicksteal and the other a stamina-based slow (with 15m range)
Allow Grim Focus to stack up to 6 times, so that you don't get screwed trying to use it on 4 charges, only for the light attack to fail due to latency or whatever and you simply refresh the ability (obviously this wont happen but eh, it'd be nice) and it still only uses 5 charges to fire.
Buff Teleport Strike so it's a full DoT (having class abilities suffer as horrible damage because they buff other things is just such a poor design. Class abilities shouldn't be so easily overshadowed by weapon/guild lines simply because they have a shiny extra... I mean you don't see Degeneration doing 10k/10 seconds just because it also has a 20 second buff!)

If this wont happen, the least they could do is put Concealed Weapon as an assassination ability and switch it with Blur - I mean surely Blur is shadowy while conceal weapons are used to... assassinate?

Yeah, this is definitely true, as it affects frontbar flexibility for ideal setups (swallow soul has historically underperformed ranged spammables, but seems to be brought in line with this realignment of melee damage, vs ranged damage varying by ability and class.

This realignment probably removes a lot of variables from future balancings, as the overhead of that many ability variables must have been a total headache (and cumulative convoluted nature of these different tweaks over the years)