Dot’s getting nerfed?

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2022

They needed buffing not nerfing. I can understand single target DoT’s not getting buffed per tick. But ground DoT’s? What is going on with this?
Seriously, DoT builds are wanted. If this goes through DoT builds are all hit dead, unless Deadly Strike and Thaumaturge get significant buffs to offset such a ridiculous change.

Are we just all meant to build around our spammable now?

WinterHeart626 · July 2022

I’m not sure it’s so much a nerf as all that.
If it’s going to make unstable wall go for 20 seconds instead of 10 and still deal the same dots over that time plus it’s usual explosion, I don’t see how that’s bad (please understand that’s what I’m reading into the notes).
I main a NB, so I’m more curious about the x2 duration on path. Depending on how that stacks out, I may just have a flex spot 😂

Degeneration on mages guild goes from 12 to 24 if the x2 duration sticks.

Dunno, I’m highly optimistic that perchance they’re going to be slightly better on timers. Otherwise I’m going to have to find some burst damage abilities or change over to an execution build with sheer venom 🤷🏻‍♂️

Edit: this does mean unstable wall might be replaced with its other morph (the unwanted stepchild) or not, because burst at the end, however the extra uptime = more procs of enchants just off those on enemies trapped within.

Thecompton73 · July 2022

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

They needed buffing not nerfing. I can understand single target DoT’s not getting buffed per tick. But ground DoT’s? What is going on with this?
Seriously, DoT builds are wanted. If this goes through DoT builds are all hit dead, unless Deadly Strike and Thaumaturge get significant buffs to offset such a ridiculous change.

Are we just all meant to build around our spammable now?

As is ground dots are pretty useless in PvP and single target are very close to useless as well with one HOT typically canceling the damage of three ST DOTS. None of them need to have the damage nerfed when it comes to PvP. As said, they could all use buffs to actually be relevant. A dot build is currently incredibly niche in PvP and will be completely destroyed by this change.

Ishtarknows · July 2022

WinterHeart626 wrote: »

I’m not sure it’s so much a nerf as all that.
If it’s going to make unstable wall go for 20 seconds instead of 10 and still deal the same dots over that time plus it’s usual explosion, I don’t see how that’s bad (please understand that’s what I’m reading into the notes).
I main a NB, so I’m more curious about the x2 duration on path. Depending on how that stacks out, I may just have a flex spot 😂

Degeneration on mages guild goes from 12 to 24 if the x2 duration sticks.

Dunno, I’m highly optimistic that perchance they’re going to be slightly better on timers. Otherwise I’m going to have to find some burst damage abilities or change over to an execution build with sheer venom 🤷🏻‍♂️

Edit: this does mean unstable wall might be replaced with its other morph (the unwanted stepchild) or not, because burst at the end, however the extra uptime = more procs of enchants just off those on enemies trapped within.

If unstable wall currently does, say 20k damage over 10 seconds that equals 2k damage per second but then if does that same 20k (or a little more as per the notes) over 20 seconds it'll only do 1k per second which is a damage nerf. Now, it will free up a single global cooldown which you might be able to fill with a harder hitting spammable and allow an overall damage status quo, but it's a nerf to damage nonetheless.

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2022

Ishtarknows wrote: »

WinterHeart626 wrote: »

I’m not sure it’s so much a nerf as all that.
If it’s going to make unstable wall go for 20 seconds instead of 10 and still deal the same dots over that time plus it’s usual explosion, I don’t see how that’s bad (please understand that’s what I’m reading into the notes).
I main a NB, so I’m more curious about the x2 duration on path. Depending on how that stacks out, I may just have a flex spot 😂

Degeneration on mages guild goes from 12 to 24 if the x2 duration sticks.

Dunno, I’m highly optimistic that perchance they’re going to be slightly better on timers. Otherwise I’m going to have to find some burst damage abilities or change over to an execution build with sheer venom 🤷🏻‍♂️

Edit: this does mean unstable wall might be replaced with its other morph (the unwanted stepchild) or not, because burst at the end, however the extra uptime = more procs of enchants just off those on enemies trapped within.

If unstable wall currently does, say 20k damage over 10 seconds that equals 2k damage per second but then if does that same 20k (or a little more as per the notes) over 20 seconds it'll only do 1k per second which is a damage nerf. Now, it will free up a single global cooldown which you might be able to fill with a harder hitting spammable and allow an overall damage status quo, but it's a nerf to damage nonetheless.

In a nutshell, it’s like spreading too little butter on too much bread.

Faulgor · July 2022

So, as far as I understand it ...

Currently, DoTs deal 1.5 times the damage of a spammable over their duration - for a 10 second DoT, that's 0.15 Spam Equivalent, or SE, per second.
After the changes, this will change to 2 times the damage of a spammable, but over a longer duration, in the example given 20 seconds. This will actually lower the SE to 0.1, or a 33% nerf of DoT damage per second.

Comparing like to like, let's say we use one DoT and a spammable over 20 seconds.
On live, this means we cast the DoT 2 times , and the spammable 18.
18 + 2*1.5 = 18 + 3 = 21 SE

With the changes, we only have to cast the DoT once over 20 seconds, and thus can add another spammable.
19 + 1*2 = 19 + 2 = 21 SE

So, in the end, absolutely no change in DPS.

However, this is on the condition that a) you actually use a spammable, full DoT rotations are gonna suck and b), the fight lasts longer than 10 seconds. For many trash fights, putting down DoTs will be a damage loss.

ecru · July 2022

I agree, DOT builds have not been very useful in pvp or in pve outside of boss encounters for years, unless they were niche builds that took advantage of a broken set bonus or something. They basically destroyed my last very good dk dot build back in 2019 or something when they went through and nerfed all of them, but it was still never great because of one button purge-everything on a certain class. They've needed buffing for a long time, they're by far the weakest dots I've ever seen in any MMO. Now with dots being weaker, there is no good reason anyone would ever include them in their build.

WinterHeart626 · July 2022

Ishtarknows wrote: »

WinterHeart626 wrote: »

I’m not sure it’s so much a nerf as all that.
If it’s going to make unstable wall go for 20 seconds instead of 10 and still deal the same dots over that time plus it’s usual explosion, I don’t see how that’s bad (please understand that’s what I’m reading into the notes).
I main a NB, so I’m more curious about the x2 duration on path. Depending on how that stacks out, I may just have a flex spot 😂

Degeneration on mages guild goes from 12 to 24 if the x2 duration sticks.

Dunno, I’m highly optimistic that perchance they’re going to be slightly better on timers. Otherwise I’m going to have to find some burst damage abilities or change over to an execution build with sheer venom 🤷🏻‍♂️

Edit: this does mean unstable wall might be replaced with its other morph (the unwanted stepchild) or not, because burst at the end, however the extra uptime = more procs of enchants just off those on enemies trapped within.

If unstable wall currently does, say 20k damage over 10 seconds that equals 2k damage per second but then if does that same 20k (or a little more as per the notes) over 20 seconds it'll only do 1k per second which is a damage nerf. Now, it will free up a single global cooldown which you might be able to fill with a harder hitting spammable and allow an overall damage status quo, but it's a nerf to damage nonetheless.

I see your point, that’s something to think on for sure. I’m curious what that means for Twisting path on nightblades then, it’s only a 4 second speed boost or something (and the main reason I keep it slotted, secondary is the added dots), guess I’ll have to start looking into what other goodies can be slotted over dots for veteran trials.

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2022

WinterHeart626 wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

WinterHeart626 wrote: »

I’m not sure it’s so much a nerf as all that.
If it’s going to make unstable wall go for 20 seconds instead of 10 and still deal the same dots over that time plus it’s usual explosion, I don’t see how that’s bad (please understand that’s what I’m reading into the notes).
I main a NB, so I’m more curious about the x2 duration on path. Depending on how that stacks out, I may just have a flex spot 😂

Degeneration on mages guild goes from 12 to 24 if the x2 duration sticks.

Dunno, I’m highly optimistic that perchance they’re going to be slightly better on timers. Otherwise I’m going to have to find some burst damage abilities or change over to an execution build with sheer venom 🤷🏻‍♂️

Edit: this does mean unstable wall might be replaced with its other morph (the unwanted stepchild) or not, because burst at the end, however the extra uptime = more procs of enchants just off those on enemies trapped within.

If unstable wall currently does, say 20k damage over 10 seconds that equals 2k damage per second but then if does that same 20k (or a little more as per the notes) over 20 seconds it'll only do 1k per second which is a damage nerf. Now, it will free up a single global cooldown which you might be able to fill with a harder hitting spammable and allow an overall damage status quo, but it's a nerf to damage nonetheless.

I see your point, that’s something to think on for sure. I’m curious what that means for Twisting path on nightblades then, it’s only a 4 second speed boost or something (and the main reason I keep it slotted, secondary is the added dots), guess I’ll have to start looking into what other goodies can be slotted over dots for veteran trials.

DoT’s that provide buffs will still be useful, Caltrops/Trap etc. but expecting to deal good DPS on DoT’s isn’t going to work at all.

Furthermore, I wonder if this will make Thaumaturge and Deadly Strike pointless or meta. And as said above 33% damage nerf to each tick is absurd.

DoT builds are my favourite build to play in most games as they differ from what most players go for, but with this change I’m seriously considering quitting ESO for good. There is little left. Each patch brings builds closer together and each build feels the same as a result. It’s taking variety out of the game and that just leads to boredom.

dmnqwk · July 2022

Let's assume a Spammable does 10k
The current belief is that a DoT lasts 10 seconds and does 1.5/second.
The plan is to re-design them to deal 1/second and last 20 seconds.

But the ramp up time for damage is....
1. First DoT applied - 1.5k damage applied over 1 second - 1.5k DPS
2. Second DoT - 4.5k damage applied (1 dot ticked twice, 1 has a single tick) over 2 seconds - 2.25k DPS
3. Third DoT - 9k damage applied over 3 seconds - 3k DPS
4. Fourth DoT - 15k over 4 seconds - 3.75k DPS
5. Spammable 1 - 31k over 5 seconds - 6.2k DPS
6. Spammable 2 - 47k over 6 seconds - 7.8k DPS
7. Spammable 3 - 63k over 7 seconds - 9k DPS
8. Spammable 4 - 79k over 8 seconds - 9.875k DPS
9. Spammable 5 - 95k over 9 seconds - 10.55k DPS
10. Spammable 6 - 111k over 10 seconds - 11.1k DPS
11. DoT 1 re-applied - 117k over 11 seconds - 10.63k DPS
12. DoT 2 re-applied - 123k over 12 seconds - 10.25k DPS
13. DoT 3 re-applied - 129k over 13 seconds - 9.92k DPS
14. DoT 4 re-applied - 135k over 14 seconds - 9.64k DPS
15. Spammable 1 - 151k over 15 seconds - 10.07k DPS
16. Spammable 2 - 167k over 16 seconds - 10.44k DPS
17. Spammable 3 - 183k over 17 seconds - 10.76k DPS
18. Spammable 4 - 199k over 18 seconds - 11.05k DPS
19. Spammable 6 - 215k over 19 seconds - 11.32k DPS
20. Spammable 7 - 231k over 20 seconds - 11.55k DPS
21. DoT 1 re-applied - 237k over 21 seconds - 11.29k DPS
22. DoT 2 re-applied - 244k over 22 seconds - 11.09k DPS
23. DoT 3 re-applied - 250k over 23 seconds - 10.87k DPS
24. DoT 4 re-applied 256k over 24 seconds - 10.67k DPS

If we use the new DoTs instead then we're looking at...
1. First DoT - 1k over 1 second - 1k DPS
2. Second DoT - 3k over 2 seconds - 1.5k DPS
3. Third DoT - 6k over 3 seconds - 2k DPS
4. Fourth DoT - 10k over 4 seconds - 2.5k DPS
5. Spammable 1 - 24k over 5 seconds - 4.8k DPS
6. Spammable 2 - 38k over 6 seconds - 6.33k DPS
7. Spammable 3 - 52k over 7 seconds - 7.43k DPS
8. Spammable 4 - 66k over 8 seconds - 8.25k DPS
9. Spammable 5 - 80k over 9 seconds - 8.89k DPS
10. Spammable 6 - 94k over 10 seconds - 9.4k DPS
11. Spammable 7 - 108k over 11 seconds - 9.82k DPS
12. Spammable 8 - 122k over 12 seconds - 10.16k DPS
13. Spammable 9 - 136k over 13 seconds - 10.46k DPS
14. Spammable 10 - 150k over 14 seconds - 10.71k DPS
15. Spammable 11 - 164k over 15 seconds - 10.93k DPS
16. Spammable 12 - 178k over 16 seconds - 11.125k DPS
17. Spammable 13 - 192k over 17 seconds - 11.29k DPS
18. Spammable 14 - 206k over 18 seconds - 11.44k DPS
19. Spammable 15 - 220k over 19 seconds - 11.58k DPS
20. Spammable 16 - 236k over 20 seconds - 11.8k DPS
21. DoT 1 re-applied - 240k over 21 seconds - 11.43k DPS
22. DoT 2 re-applied - 244k over 22 seconds - 11.09k DPS
23. DoT 3 re-applied - 248k over 23 seconds - 10.78k DPS
24. DoT 4 re-applied - 252k over 24 seconds - 10.5k DPS

The current method means every 20 seconds you'll hit for 23.1 spammables
The new method means every 20 seconds you'll hit for 23.6 spammables
Up until 12 seconds, the current method is stronger - after 12 seconds the new method is stronger, except it then dips at 23 seconds.

Current method - It takes 9 seconds for four dots to be worth applying to targets.
New method - It takes 12 seconds for four dots to be worth applying to targets.
This means that in the current environment, wherein content barely lasts 10 seconds, you're going to see classes who don't use dots for their damage because ZoS has made their spammable much much much much stronger than necessary (Templar) become even more favoured. It's not a good thing.

If the ideology is to change DoTs from 1.5 spammables/10 seconds to 2 spammables/20 seconds it's actually going to weaken dots and create more Templars (Magplar or Stamplar since both can use daggers easily) and fewer Nightblades/Sorcs who rely on dots/combo damage.

They already have a DoT which would be a vast improvement in Carve - the dot that lasts 10 seconds, then 20 when re-applied before expiry then 30 seconds. I appreciate the concern that this will increase damage then reduce all spammables by 8% to counter the increase in their use in rotations from refreshing DoTs less.

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2022

I posted a solution for this in the combat preview.

divnyi · July 2022

DoTs are already easily outhealable in PvP, only viable dots being DKs class dots and set dots.

Tyrion87 · July 2022

WinterHeart626 wrote: »

I’m not sure it’s so much a nerf as all that.
If it’s going to make unstable wall go for 20 seconds instead of 10 and still deal the same dots over that time plus it’s usual explosion, I don’t see how that’s bad (please understand that’s what I’m reading into the notes).
I main a NB, so I’m more curious about the x2 duration on path. Depending on how that stacks out, I may just have a flex spot 😂

If this game wasn't so supercasual with trash fights lasting less than 10 (or even 5) seconds, this change could be considered good. After these changes I don't see any need to cast dots (other than backbar one to proc the enchant) if the fight ends much sooner than the dot itself.

For longer fights it's a cool change though.

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2022

Tyrion87 wrote: »

WinterHeart626 wrote: »

I’m not sure it’s so much a nerf as all that.
If it’s going to make unstable wall go for 20 seconds instead of 10 and still deal the same dots over that time plus it’s usual explosion, I don’t see how that’s bad (please understand that’s what I’m reading into the notes).
I main a NB, so I’m more curious about the x2 duration on path. Depending on how that stacks out, I may just have a flex spot 😂

If this game wasn't so supercasual with trash fights lasting less than 10 (or even 5) seconds, this change could be considered good. After these changes I don't see any need to cast dots (other than backbar one to proc the enchant) if the fight ends much sooner than the dot itself.

For longer fights it's a cool change though.

But it isn't though. It will still end up a net dps loss. total damage on a DoT does not matter. Imagine you had a DoT hypothetically that dealt a million damage but it lasted a million seconds. It would never get used despite its total damage.

If that is a silly example then think of it like this,

10 second DoT deals 1000 Damage total. 100 per tick.

20 second DoT deals 1500 Damage total. 75 per tick.

The first option is more favorable as after 10 seconds you cast it again, ending up with 2000 damage total.

This extended duration on DoT's is a stealth nerf to global damage and everyone's parses are going down by about 33% when you include the Light Attack nerf. This means if before you were dealing 70k, now you'll be dealing 46k. This is a huge nerf.

WinterHeart626 · July 2022

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

WinterHeart626 wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

WinterHeart626 wrote: »

I’m not sure it’s so much a nerf as all that.
If it’s going to make unstable wall go for 20 seconds instead of 10 and still deal the same dots over that time plus it’s usual explosion, I don’t see how that’s bad (please understand that’s what I’m reading into the notes).
I main a NB, so I’m more curious about the x2 duration on path. Depending on how that stacks out, I may just have a flex spot 😂

Degeneration on mages guild goes from 12 to 24 if the x2 duration sticks.

Dunno, I’m highly optimistic that perchance they’re going to be slightly better on timers. Otherwise I’m going to have to find some burst damage abilities or change over to an execution build with sheer venom 🤷🏻‍♂️

Edit: this does mean unstable wall might be replaced with its other morph (the unwanted stepchild) or not, because burst at the end, however the extra uptime = more procs of enchants just off those on enemies trapped within.

If unstable wall currently does, say 20k damage over 10 seconds that equals 2k damage per second but then if does that same 20k (or a little more as per the notes) over 20 seconds it'll only do 1k per second which is a damage nerf. Now, it will free up a single global cooldown which you might be able to fill with a harder hitting spammable and allow an overall damage status quo, but it's a nerf to damage nonetheless.

I see your point, that’s something to think on for sure. I’m curious what that means for Twisting path on nightblades then, it’s only a 4 second speed boost or something (and the main reason I keep it slotted, secondary is the added dots), guess I’ll have to start looking into what other goodies can be slotted over dots for veteran trials.

DoT’s that provide buffs will still be useful, Caltrops/Trap etc. but expecting to deal good DPS on DoT’s isn’t going to work at all.

Furthermore, I wonder if this will make Thaumaturge and Deadly Strike pointless or meta. And as said above 33% damage nerf to each tick is absurd.

DoT builds are my favourite build to play in most games as they differ from what most players go for, but with this change I’m seriously considering quitting ESO for good. There is little left. Each patch brings builds closer together and each build feels the same as a result. It’s taking variety out of the game and that just leads to boredom.

Well, if it doesn’t work out to be a good option, guess it’s back to breaking out the gimmick builds (the ones people dislike seeing in vet content) ergo- plaguebreak + other assorted shenanigans. I don’t have the patience to line up shots with ranged AoE bursts, so I’ll just turn them into walking grenades 🫠

Tyrion87 · July 2022

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Tyrion87 wrote: »

WinterHeart626 wrote: »

I’m not sure it’s so much a nerf as all that.
If it’s going to make unstable wall go for 20 seconds instead of 10 and still deal the same dots over that time plus it’s usual explosion, I don’t see how that’s bad (please understand that’s what I’m reading into the notes).
I main a NB, so I’m more curious about the x2 duration on path. Depending on how that stacks out, I may just have a flex spot 😂

If this game wasn't so supercasual with trash fights lasting less than 10 (or even 5) seconds, this change could be considered good. After these changes I don't see any need to cast dots (other than backbar one to proc the enchant) if the fight ends much sooner than the dot itself.

For longer fights it's a cool change though.

But it isn't though. It will still end up a net dps loss. total damage on a DoT does not matter. Imagine you had a DoT hypothetically that dealt a million damage but it lasted a million seconds. It would never get used despite its total damage.

If that is a silly example then think of it like this,

10 second DoT deals 1000 Damage total. 100 per tick.

20 second DoT deals 1500 Damage total. 75 per tick.

The first option is more favorable as after 10 seconds you cast it again, ending up with 2000 damage total.

This extended duration on DoT's is a stealth nerf to global damage and everyone's parses are going down by about 33% when you include the Light Attack nerf. This means if before you were dealing 70k, now you'll be dealing 46k. This is a huge nerf.

Agree but we should look at the bigger picture here. Longer dots mean that we can spend more time on front bars using spammables or semispammables (one more cast in your example) while also having better uptimes on front bar sets (on messy encounters players tend to lose stacks quickly). It all needs testing on the PTS though.

But again, for me it might look good on paper and in theory, but in practice most fights in the game are either trash packs or bosses where fights are constantly interrupted by other mechanics where we need to relocate our dots. Not mentioning dot builds - these are gonna be simply dead.

MudcrabAttack · July 2022

They would deal more damage per cast, though you wait longer to reapply them. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if people still find a way to raise the ceiling in PVE

Urzigurumash · July 2022

dmnqwk wrote: »

I appreciate the concern that this will increase damage then reduce all spammables by 8% to counter the increase in their use in rotations from refreshing DoTs less.

Seems like sound logic to me if DoTs cannot have their damage buffed.

How did you arrive at 8% though @dmnqwk ?

dmnqwk · July 2022

Urzigurumash wrote: »

dmnqwk wrote: »

I appreciate the concern that this will increase damage then reduce all spammables by 8% to counter the increase in their use in rotations from refreshing DoTs less.

Seems like sound logic to me if DoTs cannot have their damage buffed.

How did you arrive at 8% though @dmnqwk ?

Random number generator.

No, in all seriousness if you consider a boss fight to be 3 minutes then we get 180 ability uses in that time.
With 4 DoTs lasting 10 seconds each that's 72 DoT GCDs and 108 Spammable GCDs
With the new application we'd only require 28 DoT GCDs leaving us 152 Spammable GCDs
Old Method: 72 full dots at 1.5 spammable damage + 108 spammables spammed = 216 spammables damage
New Method: Same dot damage of 108 + 152 spammables used = 260 spammables damage
So it'd end up being 260/216 or a 20% increase, which means a 16% reduction would be required. Only then we have to remember Light Attacks are going to be 10% worse off (as in going from 20% of total damage to 10%), apparently, which means the 8% reduction in spammable would keep us approximately at the same level of damage output. (since they design dots to be 150% over 10 of the spammable)

Faulgor · July 2022

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Furthermore, I wonder if this will make Thaumaturge and Deadly Strike pointless or meta. And as said above 33% damage nerf to each tick is absurd.

This should "buff" Draugrkin, Dragon's Appetite and Stagger, relatively, as their damage bonus will make up a larger percentage of DoT damage per second.

So expect those effects to get nerfed, lol.

Urzigurumash · July 2022

dmnqwk wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

dmnqwk wrote: »

I appreciate the concern that this will increase damage then reduce all spammables by 8% to counter the increase in their use in rotations from refreshing DoTs less.

Seems like sound logic to me if DoTs cannot have their damage buffed.

How did you arrive at 8% though @dmnqwk ?

Random number generator.

No, in all seriousness if you consider a boss fight to be 3 minutes then we get 180 ability uses in that time.
With 4 DoTs lasting 10 seconds each that's 72 DoT GCDs and 108 Spammable GCDs
With the new application we'd only require 28 DoT GCDs leaving us 152 Spammable GCDs
Old Method: 72 full dots at 1.5 spammable damage + 108 spammables spammed = 216 spammables damage
New Method: Same dot damage of 108 + 152 spammables used = 260 spammables damage
So it'd end up being 260/216 or a 20% increase, which means a 16% reduction would be required. Only then we have to remember Light Attacks are going to be 10% worse off (as in going from 20% of total damage to 10%), apparently, which means the 8% reduction in spammable would keep us approximately at the same level of damage output. (since they design dots to be 150% over 10 of the spammable)

Thanks for that, nice to see some actual quantitative analysis.

For PvP a differential of 16% sounds much better, but even that might be insufficient to make more DoTs worth slotting.

I did enjoy Carve in PvP for those several patches where its damage stacked.

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2022

Its honestl

Urzigurumash wrote: »

dmnqwk wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

dmnqwk wrote: »

I appreciate the concern that this will increase damage then reduce all spammables by 8% to counter the increase in their use in rotations from refreshing DoTs less.

Seems like sound logic to me if DoTs cannot have their damage buffed.

How did you arrive at 8% though @dmnqwk ?

Random number generator.

No, in all seriousness if you consider a boss fight to be 3 minutes then we get 180 ability uses in that time.
With 4 DoTs lasting 10 seconds each that's 72 DoT GCDs and 108 Spammable GCDs
With the new application we'd only require 28 DoT GCDs leaving us 152 Spammable GCDs
Old Method: 72 full dots at 1.5 spammable damage + 108 spammables spammed = 216 spammables damage
New Method: Same dot damage of 108 + 152 spammables used = 260 spammables damage
So it'd end up being 260/216 or a 20% increase, which means a 16% reduction would be required. Only then we have to remember Light Attacks are going to be 10% worse off (as in going from 20% of total damage to 10%), apparently, which means the 8% reduction in spammable would keep us approximately at the same level of damage output. (since they design dots to be 150% over 10 of the spammable)

Thanks for that, nice to see some actual quantitative analysis.

For PvP a differential of 16% sounds much better, but even that might be insufficient to make more DoTs worth slotting.

I did enjoy Carve in PvP for those several patches where its damage stacked.

Total damage increase means nothing. Damsge per tick is only what matters when it comes to DoT’s. Especially when they can be purged by clicking one button.

Urzigurumash · July 2022

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Its honestl

Urzigurumash wrote: »

dmnqwk wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

dmnqwk wrote: »

I appreciate the concern that this will increase damage then reduce all spammables by 8% to counter the increase in their use in rotations from refreshing DoTs less.

Seems like sound logic to me if DoTs cannot have their damage buffed.

How did you arrive at 8% though @dmnqwk ?

Random number generator.

No, in all seriousness if you consider a boss fight to be 3 minutes then we get 180 ability uses in that time.
With 4 DoTs lasting 10 seconds each that's 72 DoT GCDs and 108 Spammable GCDs
With the new application we'd only require 28 DoT GCDs leaving us 152 Spammable GCDs
Old Method: 72 full dots at 1.5 spammable damage + 108 spammables spammed = 216 spammables damage
New Method: Same dot damage of 108 + 152 spammables used = 260 spammables damage
So it'd end up being 260/216 or a 20% increase, which means a 16% reduction would be required. Only then we have to remember Light Attacks are going to be 10% worse off (as in going from 20% of total damage to 10%), apparently, which means the 8% reduction in spammable would keep us approximately at the same level of damage output. (since they design dots to be 150% over 10 of the spammable)

Thanks for that, nice to see some actual quantitative analysis.

For PvP a differential of 16% sounds much better, but even that might be insufficient to make more DoTs worth slotting.

I did enjoy Carve in PvP for those several patches where its damage stacked.

Total damage increase means nothing. Damsge per tick is only what matters when it comes to DoT’s. Especially when they can be purged by clicking one button.

Yes but it's much easier to compare DoTs to Direct Damage by Total Damage since some tick at different frequencies and/or have ramping damage like Venomous Claw

Urzigurumash · July 2022

@MindOfTheSwarm Copy and paste your suggestion from the Combat Preview here?

Arthtur · July 2022

There is so many problems with those changes...

dmnqwk wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

dmnqwk wrote: »

I appreciate the concern that this will increase damage then reduce all spammables by 8% to counter the increase in their use in rotations from refreshing DoTs less.

Seems like sound logic to me if DoTs cannot have their damage buffed.

How did you arrive at 8% though @dmnqwk ?

Random number generator.

No, in all seriousness if you consider a boss fight to be 3 minutes then we get 180 ability uses in that time.
With 4 DoTs lasting 10 seconds each that's 72 DoT GCDs and 108 Spammable GCDs
With the new application we'd only require 28 DoT GCDs leaving us 152 Spammable GCDs
Old Method: 72 full dots at 1.5 spammable damage + 108 spammables spammed = 216 spammables damage
New Method: Same dot damage of 108 + 152 spammables used = 260 spammables damage
So it'd end up being 260/216 or a 20% increase, which means a 16% reduction would be required. Only then we have to remember Light Attacks are going to be 10% worse off (as in going from 20% of total damage to 10%), apparently, which means the 8% reduction in spammable would keep us approximately at the same level of damage output. (since they design dots to be 150% over 10 of the spammable)

Your math is off. A lot.

Old method - Dots last 10s, each deals 1.5x damage of spammable:
180s fight
18x we use each dot so 72x casts total. 72 x 1.5= 108 spammables
In addition we use 180 - 72 = 108 spammables.
Total 108(from Dots) + 108(spamambles) = 216 spammables.

New method - Dots last 20s, each deals 2x damage of spamamble
180s fight
9x we use each dot so 36 casts total. 36 x 2 = 72 spamambles
In addition we use 180 - 36 = 144 spammables
Total 72(dots) + 144(spamambles) = 216

Overall damage doesnt change in this situation. But damage of DoTs went down by around 33%. We make up for this with amount of spammables but... DoT are a lot weaker. So sets that buff spammables (for example Point Blank Shot for Snipe) will become stronger while sets that buff DoTs will become... well... useless.

dmnqwk · July 2022

Arthtur wrote: »

There is so many problems with those changes...

Overall damage doesnt change in this situation. But damage of DoTs went down by around 33%. We make up for this with amount of spammables but... DoT are a lot weaker. So sets that buff spammables (for example Point Blank Shot for Snipe) will become stronger while sets that buff DoTs will become... well... useless.

Just to clarify I wasn't referring to 'if they used the new damage calculation of 0.1 spammable /s for 20 but continued to remain at the 0.15 spammable / second just with the added carve extension situation' as described. I was offering an alternate method by having DoTs remaining at the current power level but extending in the same way as Carve, thus maintaining the damage level but being easier to re-apply. If they used the new method, then the damage gained over 20 seconds was shown in the first post as being negligible and wouldn't require any alterations (since 13-22 seconds it's better off while 1-12 and 23-24 it's worse.)

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2022

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@MindOfTheSwarm Copy and paste your suggestion from the Combat Preview here?

Add this as a slotted CP star next to the resource nodes on the blue tree:

Cost: Make it cheap for disabled players. Say about 30 CP. Not sure what it would be called. Maybe, Master of Decay or something.

“Increases the damage of your ground damage over time effects by 75% and your single target damage over time effects by 20% and increase their duration by 10 seconds, but reduce the damage of all non-status effect Direct Damage by 75%. This star does not affect Ultimate abilities.”

No stages, an all in star designed to make the game easier for slower players or those with disabilities, negating the need for weaving or repeatedly clicking, while allowing them to get good parses without it being meta due to the huge direct damage loss.

With such a star, this entire combat change that is planned is no longer necessary and everyone wins. If super high damage is still a concern, then nerf Light Attacks but not to the degree you have done. Maybe a 25% nerf. Also, it might be wise to reduce base Critical Damage to 25% instead of 50%.