Goodbye, Heavy Attack Builds

merpins

EDIT: also...


So yup, heavy attack builds are dead.

spartaxoxo

With this adjustment, we’ll also be making a significant number of changes to item sets, passives, and buffs to ensure classes remain balanced in damage production, while also trying to do a better job allowing builds to amplify these actions (we’ve heard your cries, Heavy Attack build lovers, and we want better for you) without introducing unhealthy gameplay between PvE and PvP.

I mean this was also said. Let's see how to play out on pts first, no?

merpins

spartaxoxo wrote: »

With this adjustment, we’ll also be making a significant number of changes to item sets, passives, and buffs to ensure classes remain balanced in damage production, while also trying to do a better job allowing builds to amplify these actions (we’ve heard your cries, Heavy Attack build lovers, and we want better for you) without introducing unhealthy gameplay between PvE and PvP.

I mean this was also said. Let's see how to play out on pts first, no?

True. But if the damage of heavy attacks is a flat number, then heavy attack builds will either; 1. not work, or 2. be buffed and be op next patch.
It's more likely to be 1 than 2. If all your damage comes from sets and skills that aren't heavy attacks, then you're not a heavy attack build.

Unknown_Redemption

Pretty sure they are doing something cool for HA builds.

Austinseph1

Considering the fact that they believe heavy attack builds to be a low apm/skill alternative to solely LA builds, I can't see why they wouldn't make a competitive option for it. Probably a new set available in the new dungeons to give people a reason to buy it until they inevitably change it again.

Katlefiya

They say heavy AND light attacks! Aren't light attacks also a non-trivial part of the damage of any build that is not a heavy attack build?

EnerG

Katlefiya wrote: »

They say heavy AND light attacks! Aren't light attacks also a non-trivial part of the damage of any build that is not a heavy attack build?

It is a significant source of dmg, which is exaclty why this change is needed, la should not be out preforming half your skillbar, its a way to pad dmg without using resources, nothing else

merpins

Katlefiya wrote: »

They say heavy AND light attacks! Aren't light attacks also a non-trivial part of the damage of any build that is not a heavy attack build?

LA ususally does 15-20% of your damage if you're able to LA weave correctly. They want to lower it to 10%, or cut it in half. I don't think it's necessary and will only do more harm than good, what with the other changes. I don't really see how they'll balance it properly unless they balance PVE and PVP separately.

Didgerion

Unknown_Redemption wrote: »

Pretty sure they are doing something cool for HA builds.

Yes like adding a farting sound when you heavy attack

Dragonlord573

I like how they said they're going to buff the HA sets right after nerfing the HA sets

Necrotech_Master

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

I like how they said they're going to buff the HA sets right after nerfing the HA sets

this is what i find almost bizarre, they literally nerfed heavy attack sets from added dmg to +weapon/spell dmg and now they are likely just going to straight up revert that 2 patches after ascending tide when it was added lol

Wolfpaw

Next big change, all skills will be magicka, & stamina will be just for core combat abilities

Alinhbo_Tyaka

spartaxoxo wrote: »

- snip -

without introducing unhealthy gameplay between PvE and PvP.

I think this is the key statement from ZOS. Their obstinacy at splitting the skill damage tables into one for PvP and one for PvE setup a situation where both will suffer. If there was open world PvP then one could make the argument for the current design but with PvP being isolated there is no excuse for not loading PvP tables when entering a PvP instance.

Holycannoli

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

I like how they said they're going to buff the HA sets right after nerfing the HA sets

this is what i find almost bizarre, they literally nerfed heavy attack sets from added dmg to +weapon/spell dmg and now they are likely just going to straight up revert that 2 patches after ascending tide when it was added lol

Do you remember in 2018 when they buffed DoTs in August, then not only reverted the changes in September but nerfed some of the DoTs to be even worse than before the August buffs?

Sometimes they just throw stuff against the wall and see what sticks.

WinterHeart626

Didgerion wrote: »

Unknown_Redemption wrote: »

Pretty sure they are doing something cool for HA builds.

Yes like adding a farting sound when you heavy attack

“Bring me….. the Whoopie Staff”

I’d totes run it for gags 😂

Didgerion

EnerG wrote: »

Katlefiya wrote: »

They say heavy AND light attacks! Aren't light attacks also a non-trivial part of the damage of any build that is not a heavy attack build?

It is a significant source of dmg, which is exaclty why this change is needed, la should not be out preforming half your skill bar, its a way to pad dmg without using resources, nothing else

Well and the next patch the spamable will be 50% of the whole damage, what's next? nerf spamables based on the dummy parsing that top players can pull off?

BTW even after the nerfs LA will have a higher DPS than any dot out there, because dots will be 20 seconds long now and you will do 20 light attacks for the duration of one cycle and about 10 spamables attacks.

Telling ya the next nerf is the spamables.

How does a spamable that doesn't scale up of your max stats sound like? Sounds pretty cool!

ccfeeling

From what Gilliam said .

With this adjustment, we’ll also be making a significant number of changes to item sets, passives, and buffs to ensure classes remain balanced in damage production, while also trying to do a better job allowing builds to amplify these actions (we’ve heard your cries, Heavy Attack build lovers, and we want better for you) without introducing unhealthy gameplay between PvE and PvP.

I think they buff HA

Necrotech_Master

Holycannoli wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

I like how they said they're going to buff the HA sets right after nerfing the HA sets

this is what i find almost bizarre, they literally nerfed heavy attack sets from added dmg to +weapon/spell dmg and now they are likely just going to straight up revert that 2 patches after ascending tide when it was added lol

Do you remember in 2018 when they buffed DoTs in August, then not only reverted the changes in September but nerfed some of the DoTs to be even worse than before the August buffs?

Sometimes they just throw stuff against the wall and see what sticks.

yeah i remember that, it all happened so fast lol

Lapin_Logic

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

With this adjustment, we’ll also be making a significant number of changes to item sets, passives, and buffs to ensure classes remain balanced in damage production, while also trying to do a better job allowing builds to amplify these actions (we’ve heard your cries, Heavy Attack build lovers, and we want better for you) without introducing unhealthy gameplay between PvE and PvP.

I mean this was also said. Let's see how to play out on pts first, no?

True. But if the damage of heavy attacks is a flat number, then heavy attack builds will either; 1. not work, or 2. be buffed and be op next patch.
It's more likely to be 1 than 2. If all your damage comes from sets and skills that aren't heavy attacks, then you're not a heavy attack build.

InB4 "Queens Elegance, 5k Proc damage on Light attacks, can occur once every 1 second and 10k on a Fully charged Heavy attack, This scales with the higher of your Weapon or Spell damage"

... knowing ZOS that last line would more likely be "Scales with your Max health/Resistances" because they be like that sometimes.

Basically Heavy builds are going nowhere, it's literally the most "accessible" build, and a build that I never use, and as we know ZOS only destroys obscure styles I use or any gear I'm currently farming for. 😉

Holycannoli

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

yeah i remember that, it all happened so fast lol

I actually wound up leaving the game for a while because of that, I was so frustrated, then in early 2019 uninstalled lol. It really got on my nerves.

Necrotech_Master

Holycannoli wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

yeah i remember that, it all happened so fast lol

I actually wound up leaving the game for a while because of that, I was so frustrated, then in early 2019 uninstalled lol. It really got on my nerves.

i just dont change my builds that often, since i tend to play off-meta anyway in vast majority of cases 50% of the time it doesnt impact my build or 50% of the time i actually ends up buffing my build lol

my main has been using the same tank build for almost 5 years now lol

Holycannoli

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i just dont change my builds that often, since i tend to play off-meta anyway in vast majority of cases 50% of the time it doesnt impact my build or 50% of the time i actually ends up buffing my build lol

my main has been using the same tank build for almost 5 years now lol

Well in my case my main's build got buffed in August, then nerfed in September to worse than it was before the August buff. Not reverted back to where it was before August which I would have been fine with.

etchedpixels

HA is mostly only useful for getting resources back anyway.

If all the buffs last longer you've got time for everyone to be using their own personal elemental drain instead and to just use class skills. So the folks who use HA for control/disability reasons are just going to become ele drain, class spammable, and if solo tape down the block button.

merpins

yup.

Dalsinthus

RIP. This was a fun play style while it lasted. It was never OP in pve, but it's simply not viable now.

merpins

Dalsinthus wrote: »

RIP. This was a fun play style while it lasted. It was never OP in pve, but it's simply not viable now.

Gotta love how ZoS refuses to balance PVE and PVP separately, am I right?

Dalsinthus

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

RIP. This was a fun play style while it lasted. It was never OP in pve, but it's simply not viable now.

Gotta love how ZoS refuses to balance PVE and PVP separately, am I right?

Yes. But I don't think that this can even be blamed on PVP. It's just a casualty of this new direction they are going.

The devs talk about accessibility but one of the more accessibility increasing things they could do is offer a few viable options for heavy attack builds. I'm not talking end game trial trifecta competitive, but just enough to be successful in vet DLC dungeons and the like. Instead it has been steady nerfs to these options for the past few years.

I used to have a heavy attack sorc that was solid for any dungeon content but now I can't make it work. And next patch - why even bother with it; it is dead.

EozZoe1989

well we will see if we like it or not then some one can make a poll and say no or yes to the changes and hope they take action ..
also hope these forms will be shown on socail media more people on there than here

Arato

Katlefiya wrote: »

They say heavy AND light attacks! Aren't light attacks also a non-trivial part of the damage of any build that is not a heavy attack build?

the problem is light attack animations can be canceled, while it's a nerf it doesn't outright break builds.
While you are heavy attacking you are unable to use skills or do anything else other than channel the heavy attack, so if your damage is based on heavy attacks like a build focused on them and using sets that benefit heavy attacks, making heavy attacks a flat damage amount effectively KILLS the build since the cornerstone of the build is reduced.
Light attacks even if flat damage, is always bonus damage weaved into skill use.

Dem_kitkats1

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

RIP. This was a fun play style while it lasted. It was never OP in pve, but it's simply not viable now.

Gotta love how ZoS refuses to balance PVE and PVP separately, am I right?

I don't see how any content needs a HA playstyle.

kindred

I just put together a heavy attack build like 3 weeks ago. Golded it out. Used a ton of transmute crystals and the time to farm it... You are burning me out zos