Exclusivity between PvP and PvE

drsalvation

Often times I've seen a lot of gear and skills that offer a fun way of playing, especially support-role type of gear, that gets nerfed to the ground because of how much they break PvP and vice-versa.
They said Mist Form was a disengaging tool so they took its more prominent feature away from PvE and now it only protects you against player dmg (I guess the release from traps also works, but race against time from psijic order does that too AND provides some crit bonus, so mist form is completely out of the question).

And there has been so many times where I've suggested some skill improvements that would make support roles a lot more fun to play (and actually keep playing in that role instead of just switching to DPS via armory once the dungeon is over), but the biggest backlash I get from most of you is that doing so would break PvP balance (especially since PvP'ers hate players that won't die).

Biggest example I'll always keep bringing up until it's made this way: Power Slam. I've been highly insistent that this skill should've been a tank skill.
The skill originally stacked 10 stacks of resentment when you blocked an attack, each increasing the power of the skill up to a total of 50%. Then it got buffed in terms that it no longer had a 0.5 second cooldown between each stack gain and you could get them all practically at once if surrounded by swarming mobs. All they had to do was make the damage scale off max health or armor and suddenly you'd have the best tank damage skill that could offer tanks a way to provide some more to DPS.
One of the alternative arguments is that tanks should stay in their lane and only provide support for DPS and be a punching meat bag (with that logic, DPS shouldn't block either), but the biggest counter-argument is that it would be an OP thing to do for PvP, being tanky, unkillable and still be able to defeat players (which to be fair, that's still a thing that happens a lot without power slam).

What the devs have done is that they removed any stack of resentment for power slam, now you only block once (because it makes sense: a DPS doesn't block as often as a tank does), and blocking will only grant you a 50% cost reduction. There's a CP perk that grants you a 33% buff by blocking once.
By doing that, now you have the best aspect of the power slam skill applying on ANY weapon, and the dmg still scales off your weapon damage, so it also takes away from what could've made tanking fun.

Don't get me wrong, it's nice that I can still do the block/counter thing, it just doesn't feel right to me to take away the only thing that made sword and shield interesting and give it to all other weapons and make it for DPS and not tanking.

But back to the main topic...
Every time I suggest something fun, it always gets shot down with PvP balance issues.

And considering what they did to Mist Form, and also based on my experience in Fallout 76's battle royale mode, I came to think and figured that the best way to fix most PvP/PvE balance issues while still allowing the game to be actually fun is to go the fallout 76 route: When you enter PvP, the ONLY thing that transfers to your character is the appearance.
I think AP should be used to get PvP only skills that won't work in PvE and vice-versa.

If People are only playing PvE, imagine a build where Harbinger (which I know is a PvP armor set from IC) and Resilient Yokeda would make for a tank build where blocking deals actual damage to all mobs and it's a fun way for tanks to deal damage while blocking, be effective at actually dealing that damage, and not have to worry about those sets ruining PvP since you won't be able to equip those sets in PvP.

It would also make it easier for people to get into PvP now that they know what type of skills and equipment is allowed and build based around it.
I know I've had many times where I tried making fun and interesting builds only to realize they're completely worthless and don't do you any favors at all in PvP. The idea of having to research what sets are better and more effective which eventually lead to meta builds is what's causing this constant shift in balance. I remember I became a master of PvP because my gear was carrying me with DC and Mechanical. And many others started doing the same, until both got nerfed and now there's probably another meta shift that will change for the same reasons.
By having PvP only gear and skills, many others won't have to do research on what's good and what isn't and would be easier for everybody to experiment with what they have available, and lowers the steep learning curve to get into PvP.


My other alternative for all balance issues is simply put hard caps on everything, and allow builds to be more of having to choose which flavor of particle effects you like more, and not which armor sets you need to be good at the game. (The way I worded it makes it seem like it's the worst approach, but I'm actually inclined to this approach too, with a cap, devs are free to do any sort of crazy sets without having to worry about balancing them out eventually and would make the game something fun and not a chore).


I guess I'm just tired of seeing these rebalances as a "this game has to be played this way" and not as a way to make things actually fun. I mean, they keep saying "play as you want" in every major update, only to have our hands slapped and be told "this isn't how you're supposed to play it, so now you can't do X and Y has been nerfed so you play it this other way we want you to play it"
At least having that separation of PvE and PvP would still allow us to be creative on how we want to approach stuff in our lanes without having to get slapped in the hand because the other group wanted to try something out of their lane.

VaranisArano

The fact that classes, skills, and gear get continually tweaked to continually rebalance PVE end game and PVP is by design; its how the Devs keep ESO's combat fresh without having to push out loads more content.

Take Oakensoul, for example.

When it inevitably gets nerfed, disappointed people are going to point their fingers at the PVP complainers or the PVE end game players complaining.

And in the process they'll forget that ZOS has a recurring habit of releasing powerful mythic items with new content, watching that item predictably be overused by the playerbase, and then going "Oh, dear, that item was overused, so now we're going to bring it more in line with how we want it to perform" an update or two later after the sales are made.

Thrassians Stranglers, Ring of the Pale Order, Malacath's Band of Brutality, and Harpooner's Wading Kilt all say hello.

At a certain point, you'll just have to accept that ESO's main form of progression is horizontal, and so the constantly changing meta is a design choice the Devs are actively creating, not a flaw they are going to fix. Separating PVE and PVP won't change that design choice - you'll still see constant meta churn in PVE and PVP because the last thing ZOS wants is for players to get bored and leave for other games.

drsalvation

Make gear and skills exclusive

Never quite thought about it that way... as a design choice instead of a flaw.

Mist form was taken away from PvE because of how effective it was from one specific PvE trial.
There's a constant battle between how designers want us to play something vs all the content they keep giving us. Why punish us for using something they gave us by taking it away from us in order to play something the way they intended us to do so? Why not design around what we have at our disposal in that regard?

As for the shift in meta, it might work, but it's also artificial retention. Ironically in a way to keep players "engaged" we're doing tasks that are in no way fun for something that will get nerfed soon anyway, and when players realize this, they'll move on to other games which offer engagement in a way that's actually fun and not a task.

I mean, remember pale-order ring and having to grind in that cave in glenumbra? It took me 3 days of just running around until I finally got it, it never felt satisfying, it felt like I was released from a prison and I almost quit the game when I started asking myself "why am I still doing this?"

Compare that to an idea:
Instead of depending on RNG for artificial retention, maybe we could get daily quests from NPCs in some zones, where they'll ask you to explore some dungeon or delve in the area, in there you can do an excavation minigame (even more interesting if in a group dungeon) where you can dig up a clue. After 5 clues, you will be revealed where to find a lead, then it takes you back to that glenumbra cave and there's still some RNG with a pity limit: If you haven't found the lead after like 100 mobs, or an hour, then the next mob will be a guaranteed drop, but you can still find it before the pity limit.

This sort of stuff is more engaging to players, now they have to actively work knowing there's some progress being made, the daily limit will still force some retention but it builds up for anticipation knowing you can find the next clue for the lead the next day. In the end, grinding for a mythic can still take about a month to find, but it would be better because now the players can work and build to that point instead of just mindlessly farming and going over and over through the same thing.
It took me 28 runs in falkreath hold just to get the lead for that minotaur ring.
That's not fun, I hate that dungeon and never plan on running it ever again even tho I learned how to do it in Veteran as a tank and I'm pretty good at it now. I just won't run it. I don't ever want to see it again.

(It's also why I'm no longer farming for mythics at all anymore, there's really no point on any of it, the only way to make the story interesting is to nerf yourself anyway)

_Zathras_

Make gear and skills exclusive

drsalvation wrote: »

At least having that separation of PvE and PvP would still allow us to be creative on how we want to approach stuff in our lanes without having to get slapped in the hand because the other group wanted to try something out of their lane.

While I don't think creativity is hampered by what you are mentioning, having a lack of separation of PvP and PvE has created problems over the years. Unfair nerfing of PvE sets and skills because of perceived imbalance in PvP.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Take Oakensoul, for example.

When it inevitably gets nerfed, disappointed people are going to point their fingers at the PVP complainers

Yes, we will. There is a raging thread on Oakensoul, and the only people opposed to it is the PvP crowd. That's how change happens in ESO: the vocal minority grabs a hold of that bone and doesn't let go until they relent and nerf something.

VaranisArano wrote: »

And in the process they'll forget that ZOS has a recurring habit of releasing powerful mythic items with new content, watching that item predictably be overused by the playerbase, and then going "Oh, dear, that item was overused, so now we're going to bring it more in line with how we want it to perform" an update or two later after the sales are made.

It's more like, predictably releasing an OP set with a new Chapter, using it as a selling feature, then dialing it back 2 months later to where it should be. Also, sets get dialed back because of "over performance" in PvP all the time. Look at what happened to Sloads. It was fine for PvE, awesome in fact. But in PvP people were slaughtering the masses with it. If PvE and PvP were separate, that wouldn't have happened.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Separating PVE and PVP won't change that design choice - you'll still see constant meta churn in PVE and PVP because the last thing ZOS wants is for players to get bored and leave for other games.

There is always tuning. But don't confuse the ebb and flow of balance with the nuking of abilities/sets because the PvP crowd set the forums on fire. I can't even count the times I've read the patch notes over the years and seen my class abilities dialed back in some fashion because in PvP it was causing too many complaints. Years ago Rune Cage was 5(?) seconds, then got nuked to 3 because of PvP. In PvE there was nothing wrong with it.

So, absolutely YES they should be separated. It's been a complaint for years. Unfortunately it is highly unlikely 8 years in that they will have the capacity or drive to do that. Most other MMOs out there that have PvE and PvP separate them into servers, so you either sign up for one, or the other. There is none of this nonsense that ESO has that has caused absurd "rebalancing" since launch.

AcadianPaladin

Make gear and skills exclusive

@VaranisArano while I don't dispute most of your analysis, it does beg the question rather 'tis better for players to get bored or constantly angry due to frustrating and frequent nerfs.

Disclaimer: I've long been a proponent of balancing PvE and PvP separately.

Necrotech_Master

I got my own suggestion on this comment:

there are already gear sets which only say work in pvp

rallying cry for example requires battle spirit to be active (effectively making the proc pvp only)

many other sets from cyrodiil have lines of "reduce dmg from siege" or "reduce dmg from players" which wont ever happen outside of pvp

if they wanted to make a pve set that they DONT want to work in pvp they could just add a line like rallying cry and say "if battle spirit is NOT active"...

so they already have the ability to do these checks, i dont see anything wrong with them making some pve gear pve only if they think it would present a pvp balance problem (i mean they already have that extremely ambiguous "no proc" rule for some of the cyro campaigns, at least if a gear set explicitly stated "no battle spirit active" it would be a lot more obvious it would not work in cyrodiil)

drsalvation

Make gear and skills exclusive

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

there are already gear sets which only say work in pvp

rallying cry for example requires battle spirit to be active (effectively making the proc pvp only)

many other sets from cyrodiil have lines of "reduce dmg from siege" or "reduce dmg from players" which wont ever happen outside of pvp

if they wanted to make a pve set that they DONT want to work in pvp they could just add a line like rallying cry and say "if battle spirit is NOT active"...

so they already have the ability to do these checks, i dont see anything wrong with them making some pve gear pve only if they think it would present a pvp balance problem (i mean they already have that extremely ambiguous "no proc" rule for some of the cyro campaigns, at least if a gear set explicitly stated "no battle spirit active" it would be a lot more obvious it would not work in cyrodiil)

This is what I meant by the whole rant I made, just make some gear sets exclusive to PvE/PvP by a check like that, not in a complete overhaul/rework/redesign.

Not long ago I saw someone complaining that they couldn't do the crafting writ because they had to take a town in Cyrodiil (I also had a similar issue, but fortunately my main does everything, so I could solo takeover the town and do my crafting writs)
They wanted a PvE Cyrodiil, but I think just making PvE activities exclusive to PvE zones would suffice (no more crafting writs in cyrodiil, and no more PvP gear in dungeons and trials)

colossalvoids

Make gear and skills exclusive

I and a ton of people always advocate for separation of sorts but it's sadly not the direction they've chosen, it was a deliberate decision to have "seamless" modes but every time it leads to failures in both modes. At least that's their free content each patch, only hope it's good at times and not destructive as always.

Necrotech_Master

I got my own suggestion on this comment:

drsalvation wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

there are already gear sets which only say work in pvp

rallying cry for example requires battle spirit to be active (effectively making the proc pvp only)

many other sets from cyrodiil have lines of "reduce dmg from siege" or "reduce dmg from players" which wont ever happen outside of pvp

if they wanted to make a pve set that they DONT want to work in pvp they could just add a line like rallying cry and say "if battle spirit is NOT active"...

so they already have the ability to do these checks, i dont see anything wrong with them making some pve gear pve only if they think it would present a pvp balance problem (i mean they already have that extremely ambiguous "no proc" rule for some of the cyro campaigns, at least if a gear set explicitly stated "no battle spirit active" it would be a lot more obvious it would not work in cyrodiil)

This is what I meant by the whole rant I made, just make some gear sets exclusive to PvE/PvP by a check like that, not in a complete overhaul/rework/redesign.

Not long ago I saw someone complaining that they couldn't do the crafting writ because they had to take a town in Cyrodiil (I also had a similar issue, but fortunately my main does everything, so I could solo takeover the town and do my crafting writs)
They wanted a PvE Cyrodiil, but I think just making PvE activities exclusive to PvE zones would suffice (no more crafting writs in cyrodiil, and no more PvP gear in dungeons and trials)

skills are a little bit of a different question i think

in the mist form example, i think that the change for pve was a complete over-nerf, but if they did a reduced value like 30% dmg reduction, it wouldnt even be useful in pvp at all

i think skill wise, any skill should be able to be used in any content and does require a delicate balance, but we have several hundred gear sets, some of those can definitely be more exclusive

Sylosi

drsalvation wrote: »

Often times I've seen a lot of gear and skills that offer a fun way of playing, especially support-role type of gear, that gets nerfed to the ground because of how much they break PvP and vice-versa.

They said Mist Form was a disengaging tool so they took its more prominent feature away from PvE...

The Mist Form change had nothing to do with PvP, it got changed in PvE because people were using it to cheese mechanics in PvE.

drsalvation

Make gear and skills exclusive

Sylosi wrote: »

drsalvation wrote: »

Often times I've seen a lot of gear and skills that offer a fun way of playing, especially support-role type of gear, that gets nerfed to the ground because of how much they break PvP and vice-versa.

They said Mist Form was a disengaging tool so they took its more prominent feature away from PvE...

The Mist Form change had nothing to do with PvP, it got changed in PvE because people were using it to cheese mechanics in PvE.

fair enough, but I meant to use it as having a separation of PvE and PvP skills, considering how mist form made it possible, the counter-argument for my power slam rework idea is always shot down by PvP'ers.

Wolfpaw

I got my own suggestion on this comment:

It's not just a pve and pvp problem as cp pvp/pve tend to be hit because of no-cp small scale BG. Balancing around a game mode that doesn't even have 12 player groups like PvE/Cyrodiil, & combat that was never intended, really is terrible.

The best system I have seen is GW2 arena (BG) system as it has no impact at all on PvE or WvWvW (GW2 version of Cyrodiil).

Adding BG's as ZOS has done has had a terrible impact on the game as a whole.

Make BG's & Ravenwatch both No CP/ProcSet/Mythic, more emphasis on gear<skill.

Let PvE & BR/GH have fun.

doesurmindglow

Allow a mix of PvE and PvP skills and gear (nothing changes)

VaranisArano wrote: »

The fact that classes, skills, and gear get continually tweaked to continually rebalance PVE end game and PVP is by design; its how the Devs keep ESO's combat fresh without having to push out loads more content.

Take Oakensoul, for example.

When it inevitably gets nerfed, disappointed people are going to point their fingers at the PVP complainers or the PVE end game players complaining.

And in the process they'll forget that ZOS has a recurring habit of releasing powerful mythic items with new content, watching that item predictably be overused by the playerbase, and then going "Oh, dear, that item was overused, so now we're going to bring it more in line with how we want it to perform" an update or two later after the sales are made.

Thrassians Stranglers, Ring of the Pale Order, Malacath's Band of Brutality, and Harpooner's Wading Kilt all say hello.

At a certain point, you'll just have to accept that ESO's main form of progression is horizontal, and so the constantly changing meta is a design choice the Devs are actively creating, not a flaw they are going to fix. Separating PVE and PVP won't change that design choice - you'll still see constant meta churn in PVE and PVP because the last thing ZOS wants is for players to get bored and leave for other games.

I actually voted for a mix but what I really want is more along the lines of "something somewhere in between" where there isn't total overlap, attention to edge cases, and room for flexibility in the boundary between the game modes; I think there should be enough overlap that they aren't two totally separate games but not so much that you can't make any balance adjustments without totally screwing over the other, which is kinda how it is now.

I think we can find a "better middle ground" than we have now without disposing of the ability to crossover sets, strategies, and skills entirely.

This all being said, I have to also concede and acknowledge your points that the core motivations here are likely to be financial, and that a constantly changing PVP meta seems to be a factor in how PVE products (ie. expansions, systems, even mounts lol) are sold, and to lesser extent vice-versa.

Necrotech_Master

I got my own suggestion on this comment:

Wolfpaw wrote: »

It's not just a pve and pvp problem as cp pvp/pve tend to be hit because of no-cp small scale BG. Balancing around a game mode that doesn't even have 12 player groups like PvE/Cyrodiil, & combat that was never intended, really is terrible.

The best system I have seen is GW2 arena (BG) system as it has no impact at all on PvE or WvWvW (GW2 version of Cyrodiil).

Adding BG's as ZOS has done has had a terrible impact on the game as a whole.

Make BG's & Ravenwatch both No CP/ProcSet/Mythic, more emphasis on gear<skill.

Let PvE & BR/GH have fun.

if you want more emphasis on skill instead of the gear, the pvp mode should realistically not allow ANY set bonuses, so just gear weight/trait/enchant are the only things taking into account

or if you wanted to go more extreme, absolutely no gear at all lol

chessalavakia_ESO

I got my own suggestion on this comment:

Personally, I think gear should be split into categories based on where it comes from and be nerfed in content that significantly differs.

Overland and Crafted gear should have no penalties anywhere.

Normal Dungeon gear and Normal Arena gear should take a 5% hit in all stats outside of Dungeons, Trials, and Arenas.

PvP Gear should take a 10% hit to all stats outside of PvP areas.

Veteran Dungeon Exclusive Gear, Veteran Arena Exclusive Gear, and items from Trials should take a 15% hit in all stats outside of Dungeons, Trials, and Arenas.

This allows players to use their existing gear while also somewhat incentivizing swapping to gear that matches the content type (It will also make Overland a little bit harder for people in gear that isn't from Overland or Crafted).

Skill wise, I think the passives in the Assault, Support, and Undaunted lines should only come into play in areas related to the actual skill line.

I think in the long term they might want to also make it so the actual skills only work in the relevant area as well if they add more generic skill lines in the future.

AdamLAD

Make gear and skills exclusive

The reason that they won't separate the two is because of 2 factors. Its more work. And because they can bring out items that are intended for PvE but broke for PvP. Which means they are selling to both audiences. Genius really.

ArcVelarian

Make gear and skills exclusive

PvP and PvE should be balanced separately. Full stop.

Wolfpaw

I got my own suggestion on this comment:

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

It's not just a pve and pvp problem as cp pvp/pve tend to be hit because of no-cp small scale BG. Balancing around a game mode that doesn't even have 12 player groups like PvE/Cyrodiil, & combat that was never intended, really is terrible.

The best system I have seen is GW2 arena (BG) system as it has no impact at all on PvE or WvWvW (GW2 version of Cyrodiil).

Adding BG's as ZOS has done has had a terrible impact on the game as a whole.

Make BG's & Ravenwatch both No CP/ProcSet/Mythic, more emphasis on gear<skill.

Let PvE & BR/GH have fun.

if you want more emphasis on skill instead of the gear, the pvp mode should realistically not allow ANY set bonuses, so just gear weight/trait/enchant are the only things taking into account

or if you wanted to go more extreme, absolutely no gear at all lol

GW2 Arena (BG) was awesome.

1. A pvp staging area with vendors, queue npc's, target dummy of all kind, siege weapon practice, etc...
2. At level 3 you could go there and automatically boosted to max level with all skills unlocked/max
3. Vendors had all "sets/enchants" at equal quality to test, use, & keep for Arena (BG) - couldn't use PvE land gear or your wvwvw (cyrodiil) setup.

Obviously nothing is perfect, but vastly better than ESO BG where the majority of imbalance & nerfs come from.

ESO balance...listen to a bunch of solo no-cp smallscale mini game players for a game built around CP 12players+ content, working great so far

VaranisArano

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

@VaranisArano while I don't dispute most of your analysis, it does beg the question rather 'tis better for players to get bored or constantly angry due to frustrating and frequent nerfs.

Disclaimer: I've long been a proponent of balancing PvE and PvP separately.

As far as ZOS is concerned, we can see from updates over the years they've decided that its better for the majority of players to gradually get annoyed by a constantly changing meta rather than to let the game stagnant. Sure, players eventually get tired of the rat race, but its a long process, and in the meantime there's always fresh new players who will waste days farming for a brand new shiny mythic item that Vets know is gonna get nerfed. They get a lot more player engagement (and sales) from the players who chase the meta whether those players are happy or not, whereas they get little to no engagement from bored players who leave for another game.

I did find it funny that there's been a couple times ZOS has acknowledged that players may find the constant changes to combat exhaustings...and then I see a gem like this from the Update 32 Combat Preview.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

In the last Update, we tried to keep things simpler with the number of changes to help combat the change fatigue many have reported, but progress cannot sleep for long as we march ever forward to improving the game.

Yeah, ZOS knows all about Change Fatigue. Its a design choice, not a flaw.


I'm not a proponent of balancing PVP & PVE together or separately; I do think that balancing together (making changes that impact both at once) is far more convenient for ZOS given they've committed to horizontal progression as their primary means of player engagement. So I don't expect it to change.

francesinhalover

I got my own suggestion on this comment:

making skills exclusive would be a pain, because there's barely any.

they made some skills mostly pvp exclusive and i hated it.

francesinhalover

I got my own suggestion on this comment:

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

It's not just a pve and pvp problem as cp pvp/pve tend to be hit because of no-cp small scale BG. Balancing around a game mode that doesn't even have 12 player groups like PvE/Cyrodiil, & combat that was never intended, really is terrible.

The best system I have seen is GW2 arena (BG) system as it has no impact at all on PvE or WvWvW (GW2 version of Cyrodiil).

Adding BG's as ZOS has done has had a terrible impact on the game as a whole.

Make BG's & Ravenwatch both No CP/ProcSet/Mythic, more emphasis on gear<skill.

Let PvE & BR/GH have fun.

if you want more emphasis on skill instead of the gear, the pvp mode should realistically not allow ANY set bonuses, so just gear weight/trait/enchant are the only things taking into account

or if you wanted to go more extreme, absolutely no gear at all lol

GW2 Arena (BG) was awesome.

1. A pvp staging area with vendors, queue npc's, target dummy of all kind, siege weapon practice, etc...
2. At level 3 you could go there and automatically boosted to max level with all skills unlocked/max
3. Vendors had all "sets/enchants" at equal quality to test, use, & keep for Arena (BG) - couldn't use PvE land gear or your wvwvw (cyrodiil) setup.

Obviously nothing is perfect, but vastly better than ESO BG where the majority of imbalance & nerfs come from.

ESO balance...listen to a bunch of solo no-cp smallscale mini game players for a game built around CP 12players+ content, working great so far

Not sure where you got that, i have been on the forums for ages now same for reddit, and they balancing the game around no "cp smallscale mini game players" could be further from the truth.
I have given and seen many give feedback and it usually does nothing.
I wouldn't be surprised if there's private discords with streamers, class reps and other "pro, vet" players, where balance is discussed.

At least that's how it works on overwatch.

And maybe it's for the best.

drsalvation

Make gear and skills exclusive

francesinhalover wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

It's not just a pve and pvp problem as cp pvp/pve tend to be hit because of no-cp small scale BG. Balancing around a game mode that doesn't even have 12 player groups like PvE/Cyrodiil, & combat that was never intended, really is terrible.

The best system I have seen is GW2 arena (BG) system as it has no impact at all on PvE or WvWvW (GW2 version of Cyrodiil).

Adding BG's as ZOS has done has had a terrible impact on the game as a whole.

Make BG's & Ravenwatch both No CP/ProcSet/Mythic, more emphasis on gear<skill.

Let PvE & BR/GH have fun.

if you want more emphasis on skill instead of the gear, the pvp mode should realistically not allow ANY set bonuses, so just gear weight/trait/enchant are the only things taking into account

or if you wanted to go more extreme, absolutely no gear at all lol

GW2 Arena (BG) was awesome.

1. A pvp staging area with vendors, queue npc's, target dummy of all kind, siege weapon practice, etc...
2. At level 3 you could go there and automatically boosted to max level with all skills unlocked/max
3. Vendors had all "sets/enchants" at equal quality to test, use, & keep for Arena (BG) - couldn't use PvE land gear or your wvwvw (cyrodiil) setup.

Obviously nothing is perfect, but vastly better than ESO BG where the majority of imbalance & nerfs come from.

ESO balance...listen to a bunch of solo no-cp smallscale mini game players for a game built around CP 12players+ content, working great so far

Not sure where you got that, i have been on the forums for ages now same for reddit, and they balancing the game around no "cp smallscale mini game players" could be further from the truth.
I have given and seen many give feedback and it usually does nothing.
I wouldn't be surprised if there's private discords with streamers, class reps and other "pro, vet" players, where balance is discussed.

At least that's how it works on overwatch.

And maybe it's for the best.

If we're going with other games for juxtaposition, I have some samples of what makes combat fair and unfair and explain my reasoning for the other option of putting caps on everything...
Red Dead Online is an unfair PvP game. There's no way to avoid getting one-shot killed by some sniper UNLESS you have a specific perk that allows your hats to serve as headshot warnings.
A Fair game, despite all the complaints, is For Honor, because no matter how good the opponent is, there's still a chance for you to do something. You'll never get one-shot (at least without prior warning like an incoming catapult... just like ESO, get out of the red).

ESO surprisingly managed to do the worst of both: Because while the killing player doesn't have a one-shot kill skill/build available, the receiving player DOES get a one-shot kill event: The killer does all buffs, stealth, ambushes one player, and then proceeds with the finishing combo, it's a lot of things going on in there, so it's not a one-shot kill. The receiving player however is at one moment walking, the next moment CC'd and the ONLY thing they can do is break free, but by the time the break free animation ends, they're already dead.
It's fun for the killer, it's in no way fun for the victim.

This is why I suggested the third alternative which I'm also inclined towards to: Capping everything.
It shifts the style from Red Dead Online's unfair PvP to For Honor's fairness. It can still be challenging for newbies and veterans can still easily defeat others, it's just no longer a one-shot sequence for the victim where they'll be able to actually react and do anything... giving the player a chance to do anything means drastically improving the learning curve. The way it is now, it's basically RNG (where the number just happens to be guessing what kind of player will kill you eventually).
Anyone tried playing FarCry 5 on hard mode? The intro stage, where you're escaping on a truck, that's purely RNG based too, the player can't do anything about when or how they'll get shot even if inside the car, it's unfair, it's tedious and it's a luck-based challenge, not skill.
So being on the receiving end of a stealthy nightblade on ESO is pretty much the same, it's luck-based unless you're spamming flare over and over again... so good luck with that resource management.

By putting caps on everything you are more open to experiment with all sorts of builds while being effective.

And while I'm at it, I'm gonna add another option in the poll now that I'm talking about for honor:
Rework all active gear procs.

I don't think gear should be playing your game for you. Dark Convergence should've been a race ult skill with expensive costs, not a spell that your armor casts for you while you cast another OP ult.
We keep getting denied of new skill lines and ultimates and classes because of "balance" and whatnot, and yet we keep getting new skills and ultimates in the shape of gear.

This revolves around the fairness/unfairness of the game too. I'm bad at PvP, but before the DC nerfs, I realized I became pretty good at PvP letting dark convergence and mechanical acuity do the heavy lifting. I realized I wasn't doing anything wrong as a person with a gamepad, I was doing it wrong because I had the incorrect gear equipped, trying to be cool with sword and shield using knight-errant. Turns out that was the incorrect build. And when I finally started getting those high kills in battlegrounds and cyrodiil, I never once felt satisfied at all, because it wasn't me who was winning, it was my gear.

The gear you unlock in for honor grants you buffs and some perks, of course that game has small-scale roles and not much you can do in general other than just fight, but the perks the gear offers does not get in the way of your game. It does not cast spells for you for free, it just buffs some aspects.

So why not make things like dark convergence a race ultimate, and the DC gear set only buffs that ult to a pre-nerf version (or maybe reduce the skill cost, or slightly increase the damage dealt, or reduce the number of people caught to reach the max damage).

When gear works like that, then there won't be a need for a hard cap, or exclusivity between PvE and PvP, now everything is base-level, and your gear will mostly be used to buff up your favorite skill.

There are better ways to retain a player base, and RNG is definitely not a way to go.