Is Magicka Sorcerer Bad in PvP ?

jaws343

Yes (Explain why)

olsborg wrote: »

wards and shields (damage shields) are just not that good anymore, they are ok , but the real winners is HoTs or good burst heals, magsorc (and stamsorc) need better selfhealing...however stamsorc first need a little nerf because crystal weapon is currently overtuned.

It really is the shield issue paired with how easily telegraphed a mag sorc combo is imo.

You either have to build for mag, to have stronger shields, to survive, but have a less impactful set of damage abilities. Or you have to ditch shields and go full glass cannon, and still have easily dodged burst damage.

Two things could happen that would put sorcs in a good spot, without going too far to the top.

The first would be to either: Make shields crit, or make shields scale by attackers. So, making shields crit is pretty straight forward, a 10K shield in PVP, may crit and become a 17K shield (depending on crit damage values). Would still have the crit damage cap to keep their top value in check, and would still have the crit chance (which is mostly super low on pvp sorcs anyways) to keep the baseline size more often than not. Or, somehow, they need to make shields scale to the number of players attacking them. Not sure how exactly, but right now, shields are mostly fine in 1v1 or 1v2, and then completely become useless in anything more than that, where you are using dodge roll because shields will kill you or run you out of mag. Maybe even adding some sort of ramping damage increase by the number of players who damaged your shield before it breaks. Like +2% damage, or +2% magicka, per player who attacked your shield before it broke. Have it refresh the next time a shield breaks. So, say I put up a shield, 5 players attack it, I gain 10% mag. I put up another shield, 1 player attacks it, I lose the 10% mag and get the 2% mag. Basically make my shield do more, the more players attacking it.

The second thing they need to do is remove some of the telegraphs for burst. For example, maybe make Haunting Curse only explode once, after like 5 seconds. But, add a second cast mechanic to it, that allows you to detonate it when you want. Make Crystal Frags hard cast un-interruptable. It is basically unusable in PVP as a competent spammable because other players will interrupt you. Make Fury undodeable again. Remove the stun from Streak and make Ruge Cage undodgeble again (just remove the damage, maybe add some other effect.) Essentially, make the burst less predictable. As it is now, the moment you get Curse on you, dodge roll, and you've just shut down a sorc's entire combo.

DaisyRay

No (Explain why)

I didn't read any of the previous comments because this is purely my opinion.

I think that mag sorc is the best class in the whole game, personally. Not only is it the most fun, there is a lot of risk vs reward for those who enjoy that kind of stuff. My sorc can do a lot of damage even though she can be a bit squishy at times. To me it's worth being squishy if you can kill someone before they even attack you or notice you. Streak and invisible pots are your friend and also that daedric bird has so much healing. If you maneuver everything perfectly, you escape a lot of deaths. There have been times where my whole group wiped and I'm the only one alive riding back to safety.

My favorite skill are the runes. It's one of the best skills I've ever used in this game. Streak is a second favorite, it has saved me more times than I can count. For third, I'd say crystal shards. That would be first, but it just takes so long to go off. Sometimes I don't even bother with it because my heavy attack is faster. Finally, I love the overload ult. It is fab and I use it almost all the time.

Stncold

Yes (Explain why)

I'm about 60% on "bad" and 40% on "not bad but needs a buff". It can work, but there are just so many outdated systems to magsorc. I refuse to use crystal weapon or any sort of hybrid stuff. I want the fantasy of playing a pure mage using purely magicka abilities and my stam for running/rolling/blocking. Not some hybrid mess.

The two biggest issues IMO are a lack of class spammable and shields being junk. Frags either needs its proc chance jacked way up or should just always be instant. Lower the damage and cost reduction just a tad if need be, but it would be nice if magsorcs were given a choice between the higher damage of frags or the interrupt of crushing shock. Increase the time of shields and what someone else said about making them scale off weap/spell damage sounds nice too.

Whyn Aurum

Its Not Bad But It Definitely Needs A Buff (Explain in what areas)

Hello,

I've noticed a large shift in power away from Magsorc. I'm playing this class since game release, together with MagBlade.

Oakensoul seems to have outclassed any other builds and make them feel inferior, additionally buffing several other classes who can abuse it's powers (looking at Corrosive Armor DK and MagPlar).

You can still be competitive by putting on loads of proc sets or an oakensoul build, but seasoned MagSorcs (or any seasoned player) find more pleasure in doing well without using meta items like abovementioned. At least that's how I've always felt.

The choice of going for a build without Oakensoul or proc sets basically means you're accepting to run an inferior build to the current meta and therefore should expect major difficulties when comparing yourself to the top shelf.

Oakensoul in my opinion doesn't belong in PvP in its current state and should be redesigned into a purely PvE item or nerfed heavily.

MagBlade has been a bottom PvP tier for years and MagSorc is falling rapidly towards the same lows.

PhoenixGrey

Yes (Explain why)

divnyi wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

Go ahead, by all means, show me your biggest 1vX on one.

Ah, 1vX as the measurement of success again *facepalms*

1vx is a sure shot measure of defensive capabilities of a class while also having decent damage.

Sorc shields need to scale with spell damage to make up for its non existent defense

Cadbury

Its Not Bad But It Definitely Needs A Buff (Explain in what areas)

MetallicMonk wrote: »

^ The poster above me has stated publicly that corrosive armor is the LEAST used and worst DK ultimate so take what they say with a grain of salt.

Maybe they meant in PvE?

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.

If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Metemsycosis

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

Go ahead, by all means, show me your biggest 1vX on one.

Ah, 1vX as the measurement of success again *facepalms*

1vx is a sure shot measure of defensive capabilities of a class while also having decent damage.

Sorc shields need to scale with spell damage to make up for its non existent defense

I'd say maybe even effective spell damage.

Brrrofski

Its Not Bad But It Definitely Needs A Buff (Explain in what areas)

Ok, so I've been playing around more with mag sorc.

It's bad.

I've tried a traditional max mag build. Shields get shredded.

I've tried tanky with a shield and sea-serpent for my damage. I can't heal enough to ever be at 100% health to even proc it.... And if I do proc it, it's too hard to build tanky enough to stand and fight because of the snare. Tried swift jewellery, but lost too much mag so there's no point even using a shield.

I've tried no shield and stacking healing, but that's terrible too. Matriarch takes up too many bar spots and gets obligated. Combat prayer is way too expensive for how much it heals, which is bad.

Mag sorc is in a real bad place at the moment.

PhoenixGrey

Yes (Explain why)

Brrrofski wrote: »

Ok, so I've been playing around more with mag sorc.

It's bad.

I've tried a traditional max mag build. Shields get shredded.

I've tried tanky with a shield and sea-serpent for my damage. I can't heal enough to ever be at 100% health to even proc it.... And if I do proc it, it's too hard to build tanky enough to stand and fight because of the snare. Tried swift jewellery, but lost too much mag so there's no point even using a shield.

I've tried no shield and stacking healing, but that's terrible too. Matriarch takes up too many bar spots and gets obligated. Combat prayer is way too expensive for how much it heals, which is bad.

Mag sorc is in a real bad place at the moment.

I am too lazy to farm, but i beleive Ironblood and sithis will help you out here defensively. Then you stack some max mag on front bar and your ward is better

This build will be good only in cp though but you will struggle to burst down anything which heals well. In no cp bgs its best to play like a stamblade except your burst combo will do as much damage as a surprise attack

malistorr

Mag Sorc skills that someone would want to use in PVP like Haunting Curse, Crystal Fragments, or Structured Entropy are single-target and hard to aim. The skills are too expensive and too slow to cast. All mag sorc skills should have almost instant cast times because the class is so gimped in the defense department. The class needs a decent damage spammable. Templars have the best in the game and it not only does a lot of damage but it heals as well. What does the Sorc have that competes... Nothing.
Healing on the Sorc is below average. Again well below that of Templar. Shields take too much time to cast, use too many resources, and when you're trying to keep them up you're not doing any damage, you're wasting resources because shields are cut in half in PVP and ineffective. They're basically a useless waste of mag without having their life increased and cost decreased. They block so little damage with the PVP nerf. why bother?
Recovery is not great and you have to sacrifice a lot of damage to make recovery decent. Mag Sorc gets most of their offensive buffs from using light armor and therefore you're much less protected vs. other classes. You can go 3 heavy and maybe a medium to get the undaunted passive and increase your stats but your damage will suffer greatly. You're already squishy and the only thing you can rely on is streak or an expensive under-powered shield to try and stay alive.
If you go into the needed speed to avoid most players lately you're sacrificing even more sustain and damage.
You can go into stacking max mag and your damage will be underwhelming and you'll still not have good sustain, speed, or damage.
But in this spell/weapon damage meta if you go that route you have very little max resources. Cast a few Sorc skills and you're tapped out and don't have recovery to come back. You can heavy attack on a staff sure. But since shields stink and armor stinks you'll be dead before you can finish even 2 of these and that's if you're lucky. I'd say mag sorc is a jack of all trades and master of none type. But it is really a jack of no trades, master of none class at the moment. It really does nothing very well.

Brrrofski

Its Not Bad But It Definitely Needs A Buff (Explain in what areas)

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Ok, so I've been playing around more with mag sorc.

It's bad.

I've tried a traditional max mag build. Shields get shredded.

I've tried tanky with a shield and sea-serpent for my damage. I can't heal enough to ever be at 100% health to even proc it.... And if I do proc it, it's too hard to build tanky enough to stand and fight because of the snare. Tried swift jewellery, but lost too much mag so there's no point even using a shield.

I've tried no shield and stacking healing, but that's terrible too. Matriarch takes up too many bar spots and gets obligated. Combat prayer is way too expensive for how much it heals, which is bad.

Mag sorc is in a real bad place at the moment.

I am too lazy to farm, but i beleive Ironblood and sithis will help you out here defensively. Then you stack some max mag on front bar and your ward is better

This build will be good only in cp though but you will struggle to burst down anything which heals well. In no cp bgs its best to play like a stamblade except your burst combo will do as much damage as a surprise attack

I tried Ironblood. It didn't really make that much difference to be honest. Just having it backbar and the low proc chance means you eat crazy damage before it even proceed half the time.

Only thing I haven't tried is oaken. My Templar and nightblade are crazy with it. But I feel magsorc needs more skills. Plus I'm stuck with bird as heal and I hate it so much.

Tsunahmie

Yes (Explain why)

The multiple bird and shield nerfs really made sorc a bad a class. When crit surge and a passive are our only forms of reliable in-class healing (bird is 2shot in pvp) why are we nerfing bird to *bring it more in line with other classes burst heals*?
2 Skillslots, killable, expensive (u can't really run an extra HoT due to barspace) just doesn't make it in anyway viable unless you play a sorc healer.
The other 2 in-class heals are really bad lol.

Theignson

I am really bad with magsorc. Of my 8 PvP characters, I am worst at Magsorc.

However, since I've been playing around with Brokensoul, I slapped it on my Magsorc. It was the ninth build I've tried with the ring.

With the right sets, and adding swift and well fitted, bear haunch food, and with crystal weapons, bound armaments, Curse, and Ice comet, I did pretty well and actually had fun. Yes, it is a hybrid build. I blew up a lot of people. Just streak, hardened ward and potions for defense, yes very squishy. But with 65% crit chance, 116% crit damage, 6500 spell damage and rapid ulti's you can use offense as a defense.

But again I'm not a mag sorc expert

Stncold

Yes (Explain why)

Theignson wrote: »

I am really bad with magsorc. Of my 8 PvP characters, I am worst at Magsorc.

However, since I've been playing around with Brokensoul, I slapped it on my Magsorc. It was the ninth build I've tried with the ring.

With the right sets, and adding swift and well fitted, bear haunch food, and with crystal weapons, bound armaments, Curse, and Ice comet, I did pretty well and actually had fun. Yes, it is a hybrid build. I blew up a lot of people. Just streak, hardened ward and potions for defense, yes very squishy. But with 65% crit chance, 116% crit damage, 6500 spell damage and rapid ulti's you can use offense as a defense.

But again I'm not a mag sorc expert

Nobody is debating hybrids. Hybrid sorcs are in a decent spot. The topic is about the state of magsorcs, which are in a bad spot.
Anybody who says magsorcs are good right now is either using some super secret build they aren't sharing or playing hybrid and calling it mag. Which it's not. Mag would be using primarily mag abilities to do your damage or healing.

Caribou77

Yes (Explain why)

My main is a PVP magsorc for the past ~1+ year.

My PVP learning curve has been primarily figuring out which skills/classes work best in lag conditions.

Whirling blades is the winner, but pretty much any instant stamina based ability is far more reliable and effective than a ranged magicka ability, in common lag conditions.

Crystal frags are slow and awkward and EXTREMELY DODGEABLE. I’ve dropped them for crushing shock, which does minimal damage, but at least sometimes hits and interrupts.

Shields feel pointless unless I’m returning a relic flag or carrying the chaos ball. In combat they just suck resources and postpone death by a couple seconds.

Endless fury only kills inexperienced players with low resistance who aren’t running undeath.

My magsorc is pretty tanky bc I hardly use shields and is designed. to rely on streak and power overload. If either of these skills are nerfed my magsorc will have nothing.

malistorr

Agree with the last poster that mag sorc is aweful in PVP. I barely ever seen any of them in CP PVP. I wonder why?

Didgerion

Yes (Explain why)

It looks like ZOS forgot about Mag Sorcs class.
They somehow believe that sorc is in a good spot and never look at it.

We all know that mag sorc needs to stack max magica for defense and offence. When was the last time you've seen a new 5pc set introduced that buffs max magica? Necropotence is the strongest set to date that focuses on max magica and that set pales in comparison when you compare it with Weapon and Spell damage sets.
For example where is the clever alchemist - max magica equivalent set?. A set that would provide 7000 max magica on drinking a potion?

Problem of the magica sorcerer is that it is stuck in time. Everything else evolves but magica sorcerer.

malistorr

Shields damage is so nerfed in PVP and they don't last long enough that they are effectively useless. Any time I've played sorc in PVP I never use any shields. Your only chance to survive is speed and streak put together. Sorc is alreayd disadvantaged in defense by needing to wear light armor. Unless you make shields better and buff the damage skills the class just can't compete. It's been that way for a while and that's why there aren't many being played.

Sindrik8x

No (Explain why)

My son mains one in PC-NA in Ravenwatch and frequently goes 40 - 50 plus kills with 20 - 30 killing blows and minimal deaths (a handful or so) per night. He's on Rattlecage 5 hvy, 2 light (mage tank), and uses Spinners as second set for the pen. Between the light and class passives, sharpened staff on front bar and understanding combo mechs with streak, curse, frag, wrath, and crushing, he barely even needs an ult to finish people off. He understands engaging, choosing fights, when to go off, and just generally nukes people. Forget what two pieces hes using, but think one skoria and one slimecraw maybe...

In any sense, it's his favorite to play. He's really good at it. But, it may be a maturation thing and having played it forever. Generally he out does my stamblade running a mythic, even though im full gank. He's just more versatile and well rounded.

sbam66

Its Not Bad But It Definitely Needs A Buff (Explain in what areas)

let’s just put it this way, it’s a class that has an extremely high learning curve & nowhere near as easy as a dk or magplar. You have to be a very experienced player to play magsorc well. Two experienced magsorcs in group can be a lot of fun, key word experienced.

Anyone new to the class or inexperienced will probably get 2 shot & not know how to react to situations quick enough😂😂it is a very unforgiving class with not a lot of room for error

Aquelarre

Its Not Bad But It Definitely Needs A Buff (Explain in what areas)

Limited tools for burst dmg
Telegraphed combo

With Crystal Weapon in current state, Sorcs have a chance. Without it and without good tweaks, only DKs and Templars are powerful in PvP without specific or niche builds.

In my opinion, every class needs tools to be able to kill everything. We need variety, or every patch would be the same... just use the broken class, or compete against it with a subpar one.

lockesty

Its Not Bad But It Definitely Needs A Buff (Explain in what areas)

Magsorc with shields is usually weaker when heals are strong and vice versa.

Its always been a kiting type of a class, it cant compete in dmg with dk and templar in melee for ex and the more dmg you try to get, the more you lose on defenses but kiting with streak eats your mana really fast so its not that sustainable.

It seems to me that the class has been designed to lose in melee by default but gaining the mobility of streak in return, which is somewhat of a fair trade

There are some small improvements zos could do but overall the class is not that bad, just that a lot of other things are out of line

Hots are somewhat nerfed next patch, which might make shields a bit more viable altho the power creep has been def in a bad state after the 1k spell wep dmg buff

Udrath

Things might be different next patch since light attack damage and heavy will be really low. Shields might work again.... but haven’t tested this yet.

DizzyMac

mag sorc hasnt received an actual buff in over 2 years. sure it got a micro increase from the hybridization, but since it copped a massive nerf 2 years ago with everything else, it is the only class not to get any buffs since

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Yes (Explain why)

I certainly have more play time on mag sorc then any other class in PVP, but I have played them all. Call me biased if you want to. I recently started dusting mine off for Mayhem, haven't really PVPed in a few patches. Holy cow are they bad right now. This is probably the weakest I have ever felt on any class that I have put serious effort into playing. I may just end up OakenGanking on my NB all week. LOL

They certainly still make good pug nukers, sure they can provide utility to a group as a negate BOT, and they are better than most at running from a fight, but that is really about it.

I don't claim to be god tier, but I know how to play sorc. You simply cant kill good players with a classic mag sorc build any longer. One roll dodge is a 100% hard counter to any burst, and shields are bottom tier defense.

Things I would do in no particular order:

1. Sorcs need better heals to compete in the current meta.

-Twilight is on par with other bursts heals on paper, but the fact that its killable and takes two bar slots makes it a deal breaker most of the time. It needs to be one slot, and the matriarch morph needs to be MUCH harder to kill. Take the damage away for balance if needed.

-Our main HOT Crit surge, works fine in PVE with all your ground DOTs, but it is very sub optimal when trying to build for burst, which is what most sorcs have been doing since the dawn of time. Not sure the perfect change here, but something needs to happen if this is really the only class HOT.

-Dark Conversion is interruptible. Very useful skill, and really the only reason you can play sorc with otherwise terrible sustain, but a reliable heal it is not. Make the skill instant cast or non interuptable, adjust the resource numbers as needed, make it a strong short HOT to follow.

2. Dodge Roll is a hard counter to burst. You get cursed, you dodge roll, a sorc combo flies over your head. I think it would be really cool if the bread and butter sorc skills, frags, wrath, would be undodgable on a cursed target. So in other words, once cursed, you couldnt dodge those skills from the sorc that cast it. You could still block, etc. Might be OP, but it would encourage smart combos. Otherwise, make mages wrath and/or frags undogable.

- My perfect version of frags would be to remove the .8 second channel for the hard cast. Make it a true spammable, make it dodgeable if you want. When it procs, it hits harder, costs less, and CANT be dodged. You could even drop the proc chance to compensate.

3. Shields are trash. Scaling off spell damage would certainly be a start, but not even sure that is enough. I would simply revert the old shield changes TBH. Not only are shields poor defense in the current climate, they are expensive and are particularly impacted by lag. If you go for a shield and it doesnt timely cast, good night. HOTs are far superior in lag, and sorc simply doesnt have one.

4. We need another source of pressure than pets or procs. Pets are simply too cumbersome a lot of the time, but if you dont run pets, procs are really the only pressure option there is. You run both pets, and thats 4 bar slots gone for what most classes can do better with 2.

End of rant.

PhoenixGrey

Yes (Explain why)

The class has fallen so behind that it needs a *** ton of buffs to even be somewhere competitive

You can double shield size and have major protection on shields but I will still beat anyone on their mag sorc

xDeusEJRx

Yes (Explain why)

After the second round of class nerfs the class is hurting terribly. Not just mag sorc, stam sorc and hybrid too

Re-buff ball and make it absorb 3 projectiles per second instead of 1(1 makes no sense it provides basically no defense currently)

Revert crystal weapon back to pre-buff status with the 1 tick it had with its original damage

Re-buff atronach (atronach nerf was just a stupid change)

Revert daedric mines change (I dont even see why daedric mines change was made, the skill was only ever good for dark convergence pulling when DC always 1 shotted you in its 1st iteration)

Revert the changes to dark exchange, both skills should restore resources every 1 second not 2. Both morphs currently are not good. Both morphs now cost MORE resources to cast now. I do admit the resource restore being better is nice but it's not worth wasting more resources and getting it less frequently. Return it to restore every 1 second and increase the timer back to live and I think the cost increase will justify it.

Bound armaments didn't even need to change. Buff it back and change the unique light attack damage to like empower so it fits the new light attack changes

Buff shields slightly with the power creep in the damage, its silly how the shields are still so weak and don't align with how much damage can be pushed out. DKs who can hit 15k whips with ease will rip through your shields the way damage is right now.

Change elemental weapon to have 4 second timer instead of 2. Since crystal weapon and elemental weapon no longer stack. I think it makes sense to allow elemental weapon have a 4 second timer before disappearing.


I think if they make these changes that would help sorcerer a lot. Lets please not have a repeat of Scalebreaker Nightblade with sorcerer

#SaveSorcerer

Overamera

Yes (Explain why)

Magsorc used to be good in solo or grouped up with other sorcs for open world pvp, now that its one of the worst class for solo its pretty much useless. Since it was already bad for smallscale. It lacks in survivability and dmg wise compared to other classes. Every magsorc main pretty much quit the class. People say it has good mobility because of streak but everyone is so fast nowdays that they always catch up if you would try to streak away which is pretty much eveything sorc can try do now. People wanting to buff pet heals isnt really good for pvp imo since they can just kill your pet and you would be without a heal. I could talk all day about how and why magsorc is so trash now.

Only good thing would be that it works to zerg single players down since its a ranged class.

Overamera

Yes (Explain why)

Would be nice if they could buff shields somehow or give magsorc more heals/survivability while still be able to the same dmg that other classes can do.

I think the main problem is that shields are so weak right now, maybe because of all the new sets, more dmg now and other classes have much better healing. Since magsorc always depended on shields and now that its useless and dont have any good heals it just doesnt compete with other classes anymore.