We need better anti gank options

chrisub17_ESO104

I'm actually loving the higher burst meta in pvp now. But with the way the game is designed high burst meta's make ganking hugely efficient without enough counters.

Having to build tanky is a counter, but that forces design choices that impact the larger meta, just to solve ganking. I think a better solution is something more anti gank specific.

Just an example of what I mean off the top of my head. A mythic that lets you see stealthed, and while stealthed they can't see you. And maybe the mythic has some other big downside attached.

Or maybe something like mage light but also gives huge damage vs stealthed.

Anti gank should be highly effective vs stealth, but like gankers you give up other play styles to get there. Maybe you are just as squishy as gankers, or get a huge movement penalty, etc..

Udrath

Revealing flare is what they gave lol... if anything it could silence or causes all attacks to miss for 3 seconds after being caught, instead of stun. And it already provides major protection at all times so it’d be worth slotting.

chrisub17_ESO104

I like the idea of an item vs a skill because because you sacrifice more to get it. I'd like to see the solution be very powerful but with a big downside. That just seems like it would be more fun.

DrSlaughtr

Might as well just ask for the class to be deleted. There are more counter plays to nightblades than any other class. They're adding them constantly because people poo poo the existing options for not being automatic kills on NBs.

Most NBs are not good. Think about that for a second.

EF321

You have sentry, sea serpent coil, zoal, reactive armor, juggernaut, phoenix, sentry, death's wind and like 5 other sets with similar proc.


For "and while stealthed they can't see you", you can proc sentry while cloaked yourself.

Brrrofski

It can't be a NB change.

Plenty of people play NB with stealth who aren't gankers. It's a huge defence tool for th class as well as being offensive.

But, ganking can be pretty cracked. I don't know what the fix is though without hurting NB.

divnyi

Brrrofski wrote: »

But, ganking can be pretty cracked. I don't know what the fix is though without hurting NB.

*yawn*

Reduce the damage via battle spirit over the board, let's say, by 20%. Assuming Nb did 30k burst, it will now be 24k.

Reduce the healing via battle spirit over the board, let's say, by 33%. Let the initial damage of the gank be just initial damage of the gank. Opponent won't have ability to easily restore health to full.

Cuddlypuff

1 shot ganking is perfectly fine but it should be restricted to melee playstyles only. Frankly nobody cares about the skill floor required to play a class - if people find 1 or 2 button gank combos engaging that's their call to make. I don't even care about the direct "counterplay" as such, but every build should have some type of flaw.

For example, most oakenblades have ~20K hp right now and live inside zergs. This is enabling bombers to kill 10+ regularly on every zerg bomb attempt. Yesterday during primetime, our bomb duo casually got 400+ kills in 3 hours while still practicing new builds. It reminds me of the previous crit/dmg meta where zone chat was filled with crying over squishy HP teammates.

katorga

divnyi wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

But, ganking can be pretty cracked. I don't know what the fix is though without hurting NB.

*yawn*

Reduce the damage via battle spirit over the board, let's say, by 20%. Assuming Nb did 30k burst, it will now be 24k.

Reduce the healing via battle spirit over the board, let's say, by 33%. Let the initial damage of the gank be just initial damage of the gank. Opponent won't have ability to easily restore health to full.

Doesn't that make it even easier to gank? So my damage is down 20%, but your ability to recover is even worse off, so my execute still gets you, or I add another proc.

At the same time it punishes everyone.

fwiw, I've had some ganks that even sea serpent coil didn't prevent the one shot from getting me. I don't think 20% reduction would do it.

divnyi

katorga wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

But, ganking can be pretty cracked. I don't know what the fix is though without hurting NB.

*yawn*

Reduce the damage via battle spirit over the board, let's say, by 20%. Assuming Nb did 30k burst, it will now be 24k.

Reduce the healing via battle spirit over the board, let's say, by 33%. Let the initial damage of the gank be just initial damage of the gank. Opponent won't have ability to easily restore health to full.

Doesn't that make it even easier to gank? So my damage is down 20%, but your ability to recover is even worse off, so my execute still gets you, or I add another proc.

You ignore the option of getting stunned by allies, rooted, distance change to target, LoS, dodge, block etc.

Besides, 30k I've mentioned includes execute. So if damage would be nerfed to the point where you don't even get to execute range, you will struggle, because you will need to win extra 1GCD of damage, that includes interaction.

DrSlaughtr

The only way to be effective as a NB is to kill before the enemy can actively defend because most classes can out heal and out sustain nightblades. That's by design. If more people paid more attention to their positioning and vulnerability, those not so great NBs wouldn't get easy kills and would go back to playing easy mode classes.

Stamicka

Invisibility and stealth need to be removed from PvP. It would be for the best.

Wolfpaw

idk, the only time I get ganked is afk, locked on siege, or rez'n a player...typical gank setup on death recap, it actually doesn't bother me because the playstyle takes no skill.

DrSlaughtr

Stamicka wrote: »

Invisibility and stealth need to be removed from PvP. It wound be for the best.

I think every time someone says something like this they should list their builds so we can point out all the "unfair" aspects of those setups or the lack of counter play.

birdik

We need better antiheal and antiblock options..

sharquez

We need anti "nerf this" thread counterplay,

And for those that say ganking takes no skill... It usually takes the skills that show up on your death recap

Cuddlypuff

sharquez wrote: »

We need anti "nerf this" thread counterplay,

And for those that say ganking takes no skill... It usually takes the skills that show up on your death recap

Would it be pedantic to ask if "Heavy Attack (Inferno)" can even be classified as a skill, or is it simply a combat ability?

Cuddlypuff

birdik wrote: »

We need better antiheal and antiblock options..

Turn Evil from the Fighter's Guild skill tree is pretty good for both. Those who still have 2 skill bars may even find room to fit it in.

Wolfpaw

sharquez wrote: »

We need anti "nerf this" thread counterplay,

And for those that say ganking takes no skill... It usually takes the skills that show up on your death recap

Death recap the same. It's the no skill play of attacking a player locked on siege, rez animation, etc...not mutual combat. It's a playstyle that's not much different than fighting a target dummy.

At least bomblades have a risk/reward element to it.

Like I mentioned, it doesn't bother me. I get rezzed & gankblade withers away for another preoccupied target for an easy win.

birdik

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

birdik wrote: »

We need better antiheal and antiblock options..

Turn Evil from the Fighter's Guild skill tree is pretty good for both. Those who still have 2 skill bars may even find room to fit it in.

Meh

StarOfElyon

The Vampire skill line is basically an extension of the NB class with the way it synergizes. It gives nightblades a bonus for attacking from stealth. Always felt like a bit of favoritism to me. Those bonuses should be reworked.

Casul

My opinion is reflect sets like radiant bastion need better scaling, but make it so you have to reach a certain cap first.

Like return 75% unmitigated damage, but only after receiving 10,000 damage or higher.

birdik

StarOfElyon wrote: »

The Vampire skill line is basically an extension of the NB class with the way it synergizes. It gives nightblades a bonus for attacking from stealth. Always felt like a bit of favoritism to me. Those bonuses should be reworked.

Favouritism it s having good aoe/unblockable damage/cc and delayed burst with no cast animation, another 300 damage fo 5 sec is meh

fred4

Anti-gank sets and skills exist. You're probably just not using them:

1. Zoal. Most gankers are still melee and most do not run Immovability potions. The automatic counter-stun from Zoal and Slippery CP is very effective in practice. This set is universally useful as your main defense on squishy builds. It is not a sacrifice just to counter gankers.
2. Radiant Magelight. The traditional bow gank is a combination attack that relies on a stun to work reliably. Radiant Magelight passively inhibits that stun.
3. Juggernaut set. Very high damage can bypass it, but if the gank involves some sort of combo, this set is pretty good at saving your bacon. I suppose this falls under the heading of being tanky, but I mention it because it's back-barrable and of just how tanky it makes an otherwise squishy build.
4. Miat's PvP alerts (on PC). Once a new player attacks you, the addon makes a sound. This only happens as they are attacking you, but a dodge roll when you hear that sound will often save you.
5. Play with game sound on. Don't laugh. Some people listen to music or something else. This tip is for those people. You will hear nightblades cloaking, casting RAT, casting Siphoning Attacks, casting Grim Focus, if they are close. You can also hear and see artefacts of someone with Proxy Det active sometimes.
6. Sentry set. Similar to detection potions, but has unlimited range. I wouldn't recommend using either until a nightblade has already been spotted and you know where to look, but it should be mentioned. Combining potions with that set increases your detection uptime.
7. If you really want to hunt NBs: Potion duration extension or potion cooldown reduction glyphs on jewelry. IMO too much of a sacrifice in most builds, except "thirsty Argonian" builds.
8. When you're standing still, such as on a flag: Block or shield and don't stand too close to others. Actively use Magelight, Camou Hunter or Revealing Flare. If your stamina is down and you don't want to block yet, move around erratically.
9. DOT nightblades up when you can, especially with skills that have visual effects, such as Structured Entropy. Not that I particularly recommend that skill, but since ZOS have "fixed" stealth so you can now take damage, skills such as these point the way to the nightblade, e.g. by the little blue healing projectile in case of Structured Entropy. Also turn on ZOS' combat text and you'll probably see DOT ticks wherever the nightblade is.
10. Dodge roll after performing the killing blow on an IC boss.

I will grant you there are currently builds that may one shot you with a single flame heavy attack from range. Ironically the best spec for that is a DK.

fred4

I just want to add: Nightblades are not meta. Why are you looking for a cloak nerf at this time? If you're an Oakensoul Corrosive DK, you probably have little to fear from gankers. Cloak already got a nerf this patch that flew under the radar, because ZOS mentioned it as a stealth-mechanic bug fix rather than a nightblade class adjustment. Cloak has become more unreliable, prone to weird failures, because of it. In one case some DOT, from a proc set I think, flat out kept uncloaking me, which it's not supposed to do.

Until you've played a cloaking nightblade yourself for a while - and I mean one that leans on that skill - you don't know what hell it is when you're actually up against players who have mastered playing against it. The simple act of carrying detection potions and using common skills well, Streak, gap closers, AOE skills, Magelight or Camou Hunter - using those in combination and not clumsily - makes life almost impossible for the cloaking player.

These days, with Oakensoul, I am powerful enough that I may opt to not reset the fight, if it's 1v1. I think many stamblades have always been in that position, but I have not. I mention this because I'm a perma-cloaking nightblade and the arguments around Cloak often include suggestions of Cloak fatigue. No. If you are set up for perma-cloaking, you're already nerfed. You nerf your damage a lot for the sustain and speed you need to make that playstyle work. Oakensoul changes that a bit, but not fundamentally. I feel even squishier than before, if that was possible, but I also have the damage to win when cornered. Against some players. However Oakensoul has also lifted other specs, notably DK. There are still many players I don't have a chance against and specifically many DKs that I have to get away from - and probably shouldn't have attacked in the first place - as the advantage from my gank opener quickly fades away.

Minalan

Yet another chapter of “Gilliam’s Terrible Nightblade Simulator”.

The game is designed around one class and a couple of horribly broken sets, what in the hell do you expect?!

divnyi

StarOfElyon wrote: »

It gives nightblades a bonus for attacking from stealth. Always felt like a bit of favoritism to me.

Not only NBs can be stealth gankers

Digiman

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Might as well just ask for the class to be deleted. There are more counter plays to nightblades than any other class. They're adding them constantly because people poo poo the existing options for not being automatic kills on NBs.

Most NBs are not good. Think about that for a second.

That speaks volumes.... people say oakensoul gives a no skill playstyle. But Nightblades getting tonnes of ganking massacres with less skill, [snip]

[edited for profanity bypass]

DrSlaughtr

Digiman wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Might as well just ask for the class to be deleted. There are more counter plays to nightblades than any other class. They're adding them constantly because people poo poo the existing options for not being automatic kills on NBs.

Most NBs are not good. Think about that for a second.

That speaks volumes.... people say oakensoul gives a no skill playstyle. But Nightblades getting tonnes of ganking massacres with less skill, [snip]

[edited for profanity bypass]

That's because oakensoul takes away most of the work as a NB (or any other class, for that matter). Part of the hard part of running a stealth blade was managing your bars, buffs and sustain. Sustain is supposed to be our weakness, because it keeps us from repeatedly attacking targets. We eventually need a potion and a little time to fill back up simply because we do not have inherently good resource restore, unlike say DK, templar and sorc.

xiphactinus

Cloak is unreliable now. It seems like any damaging ability that hits me brings me out of stealth and I'm dead. It only truly works now if you maintain stealth 100% and are never seen. It has significantly reduced our target pool to a niche playstyle as we are so easily exposed now. Experiences may differ but this has been mine.

Saw a DK being parsed on by a dozen or so players in Cyrodiil last week, His/Her health never dipped below 80% until someone found the counter...Negate. DK died in seconds after that dropped. The counters are there, You just have to find them, Slot them and use them.

All the Nightblade counters work well and if I'm hit with Magelight I'm a dead kitty for sure. Not making yourself a target is the best defence and the best one to employ as it doesn't use a slot.

I don't agree that playing a Nightblade takes no skill either. Nightblade has been much more challenging than playing my DK in pvp. Everyone's experience differs I suppose.

DrSlaughtr

xiphactinus wrote: »

Cloak is unreliable now. It seems like any damaging ability that hits me brings me out of stealth and I'm dead. It only truly works now if you maintain stealth 100% and are never seen. It has significantly reduced our target pool to a niche playstyle as we are so easily exposed now. Experiences may differ but this has been mine.

Saw a DK being parsed on by a dozen or so players in Cyrodiil last week, His/Her health never dipped below 80% until someone found the counter...Negate. DK died in seconds after that dropped. The counters are there, You just have to find them, Slot them and use them.

All the Nightblade counters work well and if I'm hit with Magelight I'm a dead kitty for sure. Not making yourself a target is the best defence and the best one to employ as it doesn't use a slot.

I don't agree that playing a Nightblade takes no skill either. Nightblade has been much more challenging than playing my DK in pvp. Everyone's experience differs I suppose.

I can confirm that stealth and also cloak have been unreliable lately. It's almost like they ninja reverted the bug fixes to it by accident.