Bow+Oakensoul has ruined any semblance of game balance.

acastanza_ESO

There is literally no reason to use an inferno staff anymore, Stamina builds with a bow are outperforming Magicka builds with a staff substantial margins not only in AOE but also in single target damage. And OakenSoul has only exacerbated the problem.
This is glaringly apparent with the comparison of magicka and stamina stacking sorcerers.
Something needs to be done ASAP, this absolutely stupid meta can't be allowed to persist for months and months.

MudcrabAttack

Whatever the problem is, it’s not a bow problem. You mentioned stamsorc (crystal weapon) and oakensoul, but bows are the game’s underdog weapon.

Try Master destruction staff - destructive reach works incredibly well every 4th cast between crystal weapon and bound armaments

Thecompton73

Not getting this one, why does a ring you can wear with a bow or a destruction staff equipped give one an advantage over the other?

TheDarkRuler

Not in PVE, it is (again) a PVP issue. PVP in this game will never be 100% balanced and that is a state to accept.

grapedog

I think stam should out perform magicka builds in damage aspects....

Magicka have the benefits of staying at range, better shields, usually better heals, more escape options.

Hybridization evened the field, but magicka is still overall usually a better all around choice for all content.

JobooAGS

Not sure where the problem of bow comes into play? The only passives that would work with crystal weapon/sorc abilities is… accuracy… the rest:
Longshots: up to 12% more damage based on positioning on…bow abilities only
Hawk eye: up to 25% when you weave properly based on…. Bow abilities only
Ranger: 15% cost reduction on…. Stamina costing bow abilities only…

But there is

Hasty retreat: major expedition on dodge, which I’ll admit is useful.

Now compare it with fire staff


Tri focus: 12% more damage on heavies. Literal more burst when combined with crystal weapon with no set up or positioning requires

Penetrating magic: 10% more pen on destro abilities. You can argue it is a bit of a dead passive unless you are using clench, and like longshot/hawkeye it would only affect your weaves.

Elemental force: Increases your chance to apply status effects by 100%. Always useful, especially when proccing sundered

Ancient knowledge: Equipping an Inferno Staff increases your damage done with single target abilities by 10%. No brainer the best passive. Literal more damage on crystal weapon, bound arraments, weaving, and more.

Destruction expert: When you kill an enemy with a Destruction Staff ability, you restore 3600 Magicka. Effect occurs once every 10 seconds Im omiting the dmg shield portion as we’re using an inferno, but more mag = more streaks.


Bow is far behind destro since hybridization. I dare say it needs a buff or rework.

TechMaybeHic

I too am curious why bow as most passives buffs bow abilities. Only thing I can think of is major expedition on roll dodge.

But I have seen it. Bow sorcs everywhere.

Ragnaroek93

More like crystal weapon and proc sets than bow. Agree on Oakensoul tho, the item is dumb.

Lailaamell

grapedog wrote: »

I think stam should out perform magicka builds in damage aspects....

Magicka have the benefits of staying at range, better shields, usually better heals, more escape options.

Hybridization evened the field, but magicka is still overall usually a better all around choice for all content.

I think stam should have better sustained dmg and magicka should be burst based who deal high dmg in short time but long time deals less than stam

lPeacekeeperl

I trully belive that problem is not in ring itself, and not in some specific tipe of weapon, the real problem is in tremendows disbalance in classes, where some of them hawe 3+ "effects" in single ability and some passives directly affecting this ability.
like manaplar with jabs, (damage, heal, slowingdown, nd additional shot from passive)
like sorc with streak (stan, engage|dissengage, damage) and cristal frags (hage damage, low relative cost, heal from passive)

In other words:
There is no balance when 1-2 class can be locked in one bar yet still have all ever needed to do anithing and other classes can not.
Also there is no balance when "glass-canon" can be virtualy or realy unkillable. Like dk under "corrosive blood" - whype full stuck and limits all incomig damage, or sorc|nb (out of range if you have no owh charge in case of corc or some good dot"aoe in case of NB)

Ring just showed scale of problems and makes some of them more harsh.

So, there is no need in "fixing" the ring. Need fix to some op skills/classes.

jecks33

grapedog wrote: »

I think stam should out perform magicka builds in damage aspects....

Magicka have the benefits of staying at range, better shields, usually better heals, more escape options.

Hybridization evened the field, but magicka is still overall usually a better all around choice for all content.

seems like you are playing the 2017 version of Eso

MacRibs

O

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

There is literally no reason to use an inferno staff anymore, Stamina builds with a bow are outperforming Magicka builds with a staff substantial margins not only in AOE but also in single target damage. And OakenSoul has only exacerbated the problem.
This is glaringly apparent with the comparison of magicka and stamina stacking sorcerers.
Something needs to be done ASAP, this absolutely stupid meta can't be allowed to persist for months and months.

Oh boy wait until you start facing the stamina, inferno staff + savage werewolf wielding sorcs.

TechMaybeHic

lPeacekeeperl wrote: »

I trully belive that problem is not in ring itself, and not in some specific tipe of weapon, the real problem is in tremendows disbalance in classes, where some of them hawe 3+ "effects" in single ability and some passives directly affecting this ability.
like manaplar with jabs, (damage, heal, slowingdown, nd additional shot from passive)
like sorc with streak (stan, engage|dissengage, damage) and cristal frags (hage damage, low relative cost, heal from passive)

In other words:
There is no balance when 1-2 class can be locked in one bar yet still have all ever needed to do anithing and other classes can not.
Also there is no balance when "glass-canon" can be virtualy or realy unkillable. Like dk under "corrosive blood" - whype full stuck and limits all incomig damage, or sorc|nb (out of range if you have no owh charge in case of corc or some good dot"aoe in case of NB)

Ring just showed scale of problems and makes some of them more harsh.

So, there is no need in "fixing" the ring. Need fix to some op skills/classes.

There still is a gap between having the ring and not having the ring. You really want them to start balancing classes around having a single item behind a pay wall?

Besides that; you see all sorts, Sorcs, NBs, DK's as the prominent users of this. Templar to a lesser degree as really, try using sweeps as your heal. More likely, it's temp healer getting high uptime on that healing ult which was recently buffed yet still not largely used until now. I've even seen a friend use necro and have huge uptime with his smashing ultimate. Or you have weapons like full time shield wall. Dawnbreaker just short of a spammable.

It's the ring.

lPeacekeeperl

There still is a gap between having the ring and not having the ring. You really want them to start balancing classes around having a single item behind a pay wall?

first of all - I want them to start balancing classes. Or you can show some examples where class|build X was comlete underdog without ring and suddenly become topnotch with it?
second - This ring will be in base game next year(next named chapter) so, just wait and you will get it too. this is not "paywall".

TechMaybeHic

lPeacekeeperl wrote: »

There still is a gap between having the ring and not having the ring. You really want them to start balancing classes around having a single item behind a pay wall?

first of all - I want them to start balancing classes. Or you can show some examples where class|build X was comlete underdog without ring and suddenly become topnotch with it?
second - This ring will be in base game next year(next named chapter) so, just wait and you will get it too. this is not "paywall".

You are conflating 2 different things. Class balance standings and the ring have nothing to do with the effectiveness of the ring. Like class vs like class; the one with the ring wins given anywhere near equal skill. And this can be measured objectively by just looking for any class that can actually maintain 100% uptime on major force, major protection, major berserk, major heroism all at the same time. There's not one, and even if there was, it would take 3 total bars to do that and the other standard buffs the ring has, and every GCD you spent would be on re buffing. It's a simple matter of fact.

[snip]
[edited for minor baiting]

Tommy_The_Gun

Tbh. Originally, game was designed with stamina & magicka having different um... role in mind. For instance, magicka only has ranged weapons, while stamina has melee weapons & one ranged weapon - bow.

Over the years, Bow was receiving nerf after nerf. Whenever it was PvE or PvP, the argument was always the same - risk vs reward.

Since bow is a ranged weapon, it should not offer dps as good as melee weapon.

But after hybridization changes, it all went bonkers since now magicka & stamina can use all weapon types more or less effectively.

Since magicka did not ever had a truly "dedicated" melee weapon, the argument of "risk & reward" did not existed for magicka builds.

As a result we now have a paradox - if you are a stamina build, you are better "archer" if you will use destruction staff instead of a bow.

If Oakensoul can make bow builds at least decent then I guess it is nice. On the other hand I have not heard about 1 - 2 shot burst bow builds. All I hear of (and I actually saw it myself in action) are destro staff heavy attack one shot builds.

olsborg

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

More like crystal weapon and proc sets than bow. Agree on Oakensoul tho, the item is dumb.

Yes oakensoul is dumb af imo, nerf it or rework it, making the game even more simple now is just ....very dumb.

Neoauspex

Ranged anything is outperforming melee anything so there's also that

Priyasekarssk

Mage sorc safe running around with bow and stamina skills. I am not joking.😆😆😆😆

acastanza_ESO

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Mage sorc safe running around with bow and stamina skills. I am not joking.😆😆😆😆

That isn't a MagSorc, that is a StamSorc, albeit maybe an underperforming one if they stupidly stacked into magicka instead of stamina.

The idea that ZOS has created a game where a freaking Sorcerer isn't best when playing with magicka and magicka skills is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

AdamLAD

I was fighting a stam sorc today. I have 28k physical resistance, swift on top, and 2 damage reduction CP that would effect crystal weapon. I have a combined total of 16k sheild. Crystal weapon a singular ability took all my sheilds down and roughly 10% of my health. Fair to say the balance of this game is completely out of control.

maxjapank

lPeacekeeperl wrote: »

like manaplar with jabs, (damage, heal, slowingdown, nd additional shot from passive)

It's almost tiring pointing out that jabs being a channel, means that the Templar themselves are snared. If there was no way to snare the opponent, then we'd never get a hit.

Grianasteri

Am I missing something, entirely possible... why is a ring that anyone can use and benefit from, especially buffing bows to the extent they are apparently OP (news to me).

Genuinely interested...

katorga

MacRibs wrote: »

O

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

There is literally no reason to use an inferno staff anymore, Stamina builds with a bow are outperforming Magicka builds with a staff substantial margins not only in AOE but also in single target damage. And OakenSoul has only exacerbated the problem.
This is glaringly apparent with the comparison of magicka and stamina stacking sorcerers.
Something needs to be done ASAP, this absolutely stupid meta can't be allowed to persist for months and months.

Oh boy wait until you start facing the stamina, inferno staff + savage werewolf wielding sorcs.

lol. My stamsorc uses friestaff setup, plus a resto staff. Which is more effective for me than using oaken and one bar.

OTOH, those same sorcs hit my necro, get pulled in and blown up.

jaws343

Grianasteri wrote: »

Am I missing something, entirely possible... why is a ring that anyone can use and benefit from, especially buffing bows to the extent they are apparently OP (news to me).

Genuinely interested...

In this case, it's a bit of this and a bit of that.

The bow, a ranged weapon, gives stam players an oppurtunity to adopt a ranged play style, which counters a lot of the drawbacks of melee gameplay that are usually part of playing stam.

Crystal weapon is fairly strong spammable that can hit off two light attacks with one cast. So a double light attack with the bow from range is going to do two light attacks and two spammables worth of damage for the cost of 1 skill.

Oakensoul provides: Major Force, Major Brutality, and Major Courage, among other buffs, that all boost this damage. Alongside major protection and minor recoveries. Sorc has an interesting set of skills that allow much more minimalism in 1 bar set up choices.

All of this combines to make Bow Sorcs fairly strong.

Hawkeye

I have a solution for all you saying nerf it. Just take it out of pvp all together. That way they can leave the PVE side of stuff alone, and stop trying to balance both together. Any time something good comes into the game why is it the PVP side wants it nerfed due to people making builds that kick butt? Just sayin.

MentalxHammer

Hawkeye wrote: »

I have a solution for all you saying nerf it. Just take it out of pvp all together. That way they can leave the PVE side of stuff alone, and stop trying to balance both together. Any time something good comes into the game why is it the PVP side wants it nerfed due to people making builds that kick butt? Just sayin.

I agree it must be disabled in PvP as it is destroying the integrity of the game.

Why is it the PvP players that ask for nerfs? Simple, target dummies and NPC’s can’t make forums posts.

Gorilla

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Hawkeye wrote: »

I have a solution for all you saying nerf it. Just take it out of pvp all together. That way they can leave the PVE side of stuff alone, and stop trying to balance both together. Any time something good comes into the game why is it the PVP side wants it nerfed due to people making builds that kick butt? Just sayin.

I agree it must be disabled in PvP as it is destroying the integrity of the game.

Why is it the PvP players that ask for nerfs? Simple, target dummies and NPC’s can’t make forums posts.

So you'd rather it be less equalized and people win by gear and exploits, which is what most groups do anyways.

MentalxHammer

Gorilla wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Hawkeye wrote: »

I have a solution for all you saying nerf it. Just take it out of pvp all together. That way they can leave the PVE side of stuff alone, and stop trying to balance both together. Any time something good comes into the game why is it the PVP side wants it nerfed due to people making builds that kick butt? Just sayin.

I agree it must be disabled in PvP as it is destroying the integrity of the game.

Why is it the PvP players that ask for nerfs? Simple, target dummies and NPC’s can’t make forums posts.

So you'd rather it be less equalized and people win by gear and exploits, which is what most groups do anyways.

Exploiting is a different conversation. But listen to what you just said, your point insinuates that you don’t think people should win “by gear” but what is oakensoul doing? It’s literally gear that is completely carrying players. And yes, I do think players that have invested thousands of hours to attain peak mechanical skill should beat players that are less skilled.

MindOfTheSwarm

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

Not in PVE, it is (again) a PVP issue. PVP in this game will never be 100% balanced and that is a state to accept.

Half of the problem in PvP is players not gearing for it properly or putting defensive skills on their bars. Many players think it’s fine to spec for max damage and expect to survive vs a properly geared toon.

Oakensoul is overpowered but it is only making it more obvious which players are geared right and which players aren’t.

Mrtoobyy

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

Not in PVE, it is (again) a PVP issue. PVP in this game will never be 100% balanced and that is a state to accept.

Half of the problem in PvP is players not gearing for it properly or putting defensive skills on their bars. Many players think it’s fine to spec for max damage and expect to survive vs a properly geared toon.

Oakensoul is overpowered but it is only making it more obvious which players are geared right and which players aren’t.

It was that way before but something has happened. Last weekend I was playing BG as usual, and I face the same old people as always the last two years. All of a sudden this DK that is fairly good one shot me with a inferno heavy attack. I have the screenshot at home on my comp, I think it hit for 33k. Why is that a problem? Well I am sitting at 31.5k health, 32k resistances AND vamp stage 3. IF that is not enough to survive against what I think is an optimized oaken-heavy attack build then what is?
Sometimes I can survive quite long against three people beating at me so it is not that Im not geared up the right way. People whisper me sometimes to ask me what Im running since they had trouble killing me.

This guy MAY cheat cause after 1-2 years playing with him he all of a sudden came into BG's doing this. OR it's oakensoul that is being too op.

IF one item makes 30k health and resist plus stage 3 vamp obsolete then maybe it's time to remove it from pvp for a while and see IF something changes... Quick and easy problem searching

But hey Ive been playing since beta and I know by now that ZOS will never make things as good as possible. They were more determined before when the game was new. Sometimes I ask myself why I keep playing this game and even read this forum