Else's Video on the Ridiculous Arctic Blast Nerf

doesurmindglow

I've seen a lot of really absurd balance changes in my time playing this game but this has to be really up there. Worse still, numerous threads were created about it during PTS, dozens of players gave thoughtful, experienced feedback that the change was a step in the wrong direction, that it misunderstood pretty dramatically the challenges a particular class is facing, and that it woefully overestimated that class's offensive capability, especially in PVP.

I think IsThereNo1Else has done a good job of summarizing a lot of the concerns and discussing why the change so deeply missed the mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z_tBjsY_y8

I tend to agree with his complaint both in particular and in general. The issue isn't merely that changes to Arctic Blast are a step in the wrong direction. The bigger and much more important issue is how critical it is to seriously consider the feedback players are providing on PTS.

I'm hoping the lack of offensive tools in the Warden's kit are given another look in a future patch. The class needs access to similar tools as the other classes, including an undodgeable, unblockable stun, OR the other classes need to have their access to CC reined in. It's also just kinda ridiculous that a class so heavily focused on ice-themed abilities has no ability to reliably and effectively CC.

i hope also we can avoid this kind of mistake in the future by listening to players that take the time to test out changes on the PTS and provide their feedback. They're trying to help make the game better. Please listen.

aurelius_fx

doesurmindglow wrote: »

i hope also we can avoid this kind of mistake in the future by listening to players that take the time to test out changes on the PTS and provide their feedback. They're trying to help make the game better. Please listen.

not gonna happen. it's glaringly obvious they don't care about balance or pvp community, their coffers aren't changing much if the 600 people playing cyro/bgs decide to 'vote with their wallets' because the majority of the casual player base isn't remotely interested in it since their experience boils down to trying to do daily bg and getting nuked

they're clueless on how to balance a pvp game and are not interested in investing anything in it, (relation between time spent and profit) it's not an easy task to begin with but some changes are just so hilariously backwards that show how out of touch with the game they are

ESO_Nightingale

doesurmindglow wrote: »

I've seen a lot of really absurd balance changes in my time playing this game but this has to be really up there. Worse still, numerous threads were created about it during PTS, dozens of players gave thoughtful, experienced feedback that the change was a step in the wrong direction, that it misunderstood pretty dramatically the challenges a particular class is facing, and that it woefully overestimated that class's offensive capability, especially in PVP.

I think IsThereNo1Else has done a good job of summarizing a lot of the concerns and discussing why the change so deeply missed the mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z_tBjsY_y8

I tend to agree with his complaint both in particular and in general. The issue isn't merely that changes to Arctic Blast are a step in the wrong direction. The bigger and much more important issue is how critical it is to seriously consider the feedback players are providing on PTS.

I'm hoping the lack of offensive tools in the Warden's kit are given another look in a future patch. The class needs access to similar tools as the other classes, including an undodgeable, unblockable stun, OR the other classes need to have their access to CC reined in. It's also just kinda ridiculous that a class so heavily focused on ice-themed abilities has no ability to reliably and effectively CC.

i hope also we can avoid this kind of mistake in the future by listening to players that take the time to test out changes on the PTS and provide their feedback. They're trying to help make the game better. Please listen.

And there's also the fact that a class so heavily themed about ice only has one reliable frost damage skill lol.

But yeah. Thanks for acknowledging us. We tried so hard this pts to tell zos but it fell on deaf ears.

Lailaamell

Its obvius they want a defense oriented warden over offense

ESO_Nightingale

Lailaamell wrote: »

Its obvius they want a defense oriented warden over offense

Sounds accurate to the balance changes. But that's not what wardens need or want and zos refuses to listen to us. We have to work way harder to do things other classes do with 1 button press. That's not balanced or fun.

lPeacekeeperl

Lailaamell wrote: »

Its obvius they want a defense oriented warden over offense

Yea, thats why:
DK have 2 immortal button (leap, corrosive armor)
Tempalr have immortal button (incantation)
Necromancer have immortal button(goliath)
(sorc and nb can just run avay)
and warden dont have anithyng comparanle to this skills =( (forest not even close to templars ult in any aspect)

why devs hates as so much?
why i've choose to main this class ages ago?
when i'll be able to get "class-chage-token"?

Vaoh

I’m primarily a PvE player but I totally stopped playing my Magden.

For dungeons it’s likely the worst choice there is. Bad offheals. Meh sustain. Meh DPS. Bear vs Destro Ult is also a decision with heavy downsides whichever way you go. Also.... it just doesn’t feel as fun, maybe because the main abilities (Bear Ult, Dive, Scorch) are all delayed. I instead play Magplar or Mag DK which feel noticeably stronger in every scenario. For trials no one wants Magden either - Necro/DK have been best (idk about High Isle yet)

The solution to Warden’s class issues imo is connected to:
1. Northern Storm must become a powerful AoE Ult which is slotted instead of Destro Ult. It has to be a superior option. Right now it’s not even close.
2. Arctic Blast must become a single target or travelling aoe Ice DoT ability with a stun. This would solve a huge amount of warden issues on its own.
3. Bear must have a one bar morph at the expense of most of its Damage dealt. Warden should not need to choose between their bear and other Ults. It would make sense for this to become a Frost-based Animal since backbar would likely slot something like Northern Storm.

ESO_Nightingale

Vaoh wrote: »

I’m primarily a PvE player but I totally stopped playing my Magden.

For dungeons it’s likely the worst choice there is. Bad offheals. Meh sustain. Meh DPS. Bear vs Destro Ult is also a decision with heavy downsides whichever way you go. Also.... it just doesn’t feel as fun, maybe because the main abilities (Bear Ult, Dive, Scorch) are all delayed. I instead play Magplar or Mag DK which feel noticeably stronger in every scenario. For trials no one wants Magden either - Necro/DK have been best (idk about High Isle yet)

The solution to Warden’s class issues imo is connected to:
1. Northern Storm must become a powerful AoE Ult which is slotted instead of Destro Ult. It has to be a superior option. Right now it’s not even close.
2. Arctic Blast must become a single target or travelling aoe Ice DoT ability with a stun. This would solve a huge amount of warden issues on its own.
3. Bear must have a one bar morph at the expense of most of its Damage dealt. Warden should not need to choose between their bear and other Ults. It would make sense for this to become a Frost-based Animal since backbar would likely slot something like Northern Storm.

The only thing that is really missing from this is a buff to one of the green balance skills for self healing as it desperately needs one.

Aldoss

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lailaamell wrote: »

Its obvius they want a defense oriented warden over offense

Sounds accurate to the balance changes. But that's not what wardens need or want and zos refuses to listen to us. We have to work way harder to do things other classes do with 1 button press. That's not balanced or fun.

When I want to land a reliable bust combo as a magden, I have to ensure my target is properly debuffed, then create enough separation for ZOS' code gremlins to grant me off balance against my target when Dive lands 3 seconds after I cast it, then I have to load shalks and close the gap by running (because we don't have a class gap closer) because shalks will miss very frequently at 7+ meters of range, but not spend too long so that I can channel a medium attack while ensuring that I'm facing the correct direction my target is moving to ensure that my shalks even lands. Even then, shalks will likely only hit for half of what Purifying Light or Molten Whip or Frag or Assassin's Will does.

FeelsGoodMan

ESO_Nightingale

Aldoss wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lailaamell wrote: »

Its obvius they want a defense oriented warden over offense

Sounds accurate to the balance changes. But that's not what wardens need or want and zos refuses to listen to us. We have to work way harder to do things other classes do with 1 button press. That's not balanced or fun.

When I want to land a reliable bust combo as a magden, I have to ensure my target is properly debuffed, then create enough separation for ZOS' code gremlins to grant me off balance against my target when Dive lands 3 seconds after I cast it, then I have to load shalks and close the gap by running (because we don't have a class gap closer) because shalks will miss very frequently at 7+ meters of range, but not spend too long so that I can channel a medium attack while ensuring that I'm facing the correct direction my target is moving to ensure that my shalks even lands. Even then, shalks will likely only hit for half of what Purifying Light or Molten Whip or Frag or Assassin's Will does.

FeelsGoodMan

don't worry they'll nerf our damage too next patch. doing something like bringing scorch down by 50% at base because of some reason like "Right now, this ability is offering too much offensive nature for the Warden" meanwhile MagDK and Magplar have kits that enable them to be good in pvp.

doesurmindglow

Vaoh wrote: »

I’m primarily a PvE player but I totally stopped playing my Magden.

For dungeons it’s likely the worst choice there is. Bad offheals. Meh sustain. Meh DPS. Bear vs Destro Ult is also a decision with heavy downsides whichever way you go. Also.... it just doesn’t feel as fun, maybe because the main abilities (Bear Ult, Dive, Scorch) are all delayed. I instead play Magplar or Mag DK which feel noticeably stronger in every scenario. For trials no one wants Magden either - Necro/DK have been best (idk about High Isle yet)

The solution to Warden’s class issues imo is connected to:
1. Northern Storm must become a powerful AoE Ult which is slotted instead of Destro Ult. It has to be a superior option. Right now it’s not even close.
2. Arctic Blast must become a single target or travelling aoe Ice DoT ability with a stun. This would solve a huge amount of warden issues on its own.
3. Bear must have a one bar morph at the expense of most of its Damage dealt. Warden should not need to choose between their bear and other Ults. It would make sense for this to become a Frost-based Animal since backbar would likely slot something like Northern Storm.

I'd support these ideas, Northern Storm should certainly outperform frost ulti to make it make sense; currently it's not at all clear why you would use it as anything more than a buff to shalks and whatever else you're running. Though I don't think it's bad in that usage, and I have seen some PVP groups adopt it since the recent buff as a way to get more synergy damage.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The only thing that is really missing from this is a buff to one of the green balance skills for self healing as it desperately needs one.

I also agree that Green Balance heals are kinda lackluster at present, probably need buffing all around. It wouldn't need to be huge things, like Living Trellis could give Major Vitality and suddenly be of much more use; Vines needs to be revisited also probably as that got a really stupid nerf recently.

But I really think two very obvious things should happen to make the class work:

1. Gripping Shards should stun. It should be unblockable and undodgeable like the other classes have with Mass Hysteria, Streak, Javelin, or Fossilize. Gripping shards sees almost no usage outside of some PVE tanking setups, and even there it could do more.
2. Frozen Retreat needs to be a damage synergy that immobilizes from range. Neither of the Frozen Gate morphs are all that useful if we're being completely honest, especially compared to similar abilities on other classes. Almost no one runs Frozen Retreat at all, it's a total joke. There's no reason it couldn't be easily reworked to lock enemies in place and offer a decent damage synergy to allies.

I'm sure other people have better ideas too but it's crazy how inadequate the warden kit is at present, especially in PVP. Half the skills see no use at all; and some morphs are total dead ends, almost comically so.

Casul

The best way for me to make my stamden feel strong again, was to play a magsorc.

lPeacekeeperl

BuildMan wrote: »

The best way for me to make my stamden feel strong again, was to play a magsorc.

Why not magplar? Or magDk? Or manablade? they are great too)


Anyway, i've alreade made topic on warden problems, but seems it was too big.
I think this is unpractital to talk about one separated skill , we should at leas look at whole skill brunch(skill subtree?) and compare to other classes.

And to be fair - Magdens actualy have strongest AOE dot zone - winter revenge. (but luck of "first tick" feels bad. i mean not first strike, like templars spear shard, but just first tick, which do damage in moment this aoe lands)

And we have one of the best "range defence" skill, but, 6 sec seems unfair, because anyway its limited to 3 reflects. So, well be much closer to sorcs "self defence rune" with 30-60 sec. buff time. (In hard pve like vateshran arena or in pvp you'll have to recast it anyway, but as "prebuff" it will be much more comfortable to have active) (too long? NB's traps for stun exist 120sec)


But everithing else on "frost" is just meh, in compare to other classes.

def buff (Major Resolve) we got minor protection in one of forms aor distance to cover teammates. NB have it "passively" from using other def.abilities, Templars - got additional res.regen and unnamed defence buf, DK - shield(pretty strong) and damage reflections, Sorcs - speed buf and aoe damage zone, necromancers - pull in one morp(worse then our version?). So, 4|6 classes have 2 or more effects on def.buff

Arctic blast - Not "save spam button" as DK's blood, Templars BoL, Sorcs birb or scamp or streak, NB's invis or Necros "mender"(unnamed 10% dmg.rediction or burst heal both good)
Not control button, as DK's shards, or claws, or ashecloud, or chain, Temlars sharge, or spear, Sorcs tomb or streak, NB's flanking atacks or totem, Necros totem or grasp
and Not aoe dot (6sec? c'mon, sorcs armor - exist 20 sec and does more damage)

and "teleport".... just why devs forgot about this skill? travel time, "activation" time, huge gloving aoe - it's just miserable nonsense. I should at least stun and snare catched target. (vains seems underused too, but can be used in pvp in premades with good coordination, teleports - maybe in Cyrodiil?such nishe usage should be in "military" or "world" skills, not in class skills)


and last but not least - frost ult.
to be on pair with other classes it should not only do damage, and give major protection(was nice when it was -30% dmg, now its just meh...)| or slow's targets (other classes can do this withoul ult, remember?).
It should do something realy nuts:
Add frost dmg. to light attacs? like? or replace light attacks with "throwing icecicles"?)
Apply chilled on every damage tick?
Give "cristal shards" without charge-limit"?
Give additional 30000HP and transform in huge ice-colossus?
Increase dmg.taken from you on all affected targets?
Reduse all incoming dmg not by "protection buff" but by flat 30-50-70% ? or even 3% of HP? Or flat -15% dmg to you and +15% to all enemy in zone?




===============
additional thougts actualy in stamina, with maelstorm 2h class... playable. not locked in class spamables like templar, but wardens class-passives just forces to use class skills.
So, maybe, just maybe, it will be more convinient and less noticeble to impruve some passives? like replace +10% to magick and frost with +15% to frost and bleed, and converst "magick dmg to frost dmg. like frost shalks and frost bees seems... ok? anyway game already have pure magick dmg class - templar,pure fire - DK, pure lightning - sorc, so, why not give wardens more consistent dmg.type?



=============
seems like again too long to get attention

MindOfTheSwarm

doesurmindglow wrote: »

I've seen a lot of really absurd balance changes in my time playing this game but this has to be really up there. Worse still, numerous threads were created about it during PTS, dozens of players gave thoughtful, experienced feedback that the change was a step in the wrong direction, that it misunderstood pretty dramatically the challenges a particular class is facing, and that it woefully overestimated that class's offensive capability, especially in PVP.

I think IsThereNo1Else has done a good job of summarizing a lot of the concerns and discussing why the change so deeply missed the mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z_tBjsY_y8

I tend to agree with his complaint both in particular and in general. The issue isn't merely that changes to Arctic Blast are a step in the wrong direction. The bigger and much more important issue is how critical it is to seriously consider the feedback players are providing on PTS.

I'm hoping the lack of offensive tools in the Warden's kit are given another look in a future patch. The class needs access to similar tools as the other classes, including an undodgeable, unblockable stun, OR the other classes need to have their access to CC reined in. It's also just kinda ridiculous that a class so heavily focused on ice-themed abilities has no ability to reliably and effectively CC.

i hope also we can avoid this kind of mistake in the future by listening to players that take the time to test out changes on the PTS and provide their feedback. They're trying to help make the game better. Please listen.

This was a non issue on release Warden as although their stun was tied to their ult, they had in compensation access to powerful snares with their Frost Abilities. Personally, I think Frozen should be added as a status effect that has like a 2% chance to proc on Chilled targets when they take Frost Damage.
But if people want an on demand stun, then why not have Elemental Ring and Pulsar stun Chilled targets?
Nightingale also has a decent suggestion with it being a projectile that stuns on hit but also keeps its swirling wind effect as a DoT.
It used to be a projectile, but many players complained about losing the wind DoT which was a fair point and so it was reverted. But the simple fix was combining them while removing the heal. Polar Wind in this case could keep the heal, have increased duration, and still stun as it does now in its current form.

In a nutshell:

Arctic Blast: On demand projectile stun, keeps its wind effect for like 8 seconds but does not heal.

Polar Wind: Keeps heal, keeps wind effect for longer say 12 seconds and more damage per tick with increased radius like 2 meters bigger. Stuns after 5 hits as it does now.

Alternatively: Frost Impulse and morphs stun Chilled targets.

Another option: Structured Entropy renamed to Heat Death: Deals Frost Damage over time and stuns targets hit.

ESO_Nightingale

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

doesurmindglow wrote: »

I've seen a lot of really absurd balance changes in my time playing this game but this has to be really up there. Worse still, numerous threads were created about it during PTS, dozens of players gave thoughtful, experienced feedback that the change was a step in the wrong direction, that it misunderstood pretty dramatically the challenges a particular class is facing, and that it woefully overestimated that class's offensive capability, especially in PVP.

I think IsThereNo1Else has done a good job of summarizing a lot of the concerns and discussing why the change so deeply missed the mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z_tBjsY_y8

I tend to agree with his complaint both in particular and in general. The issue isn't merely that changes to Arctic Blast are a step in the wrong direction. The bigger and much more important issue is how critical it is to seriously consider the feedback players are providing on PTS.

I'm hoping the lack of offensive tools in the Warden's kit are given another look in a future patch. The class needs access to similar tools as the other classes, including an undodgeable, unblockable stun, OR the other classes need to have their access to CC reined in. It's also just kinda ridiculous that a class so heavily focused on ice-themed abilities has no ability to reliably and effectively CC.

i hope also we can avoid this kind of mistake in the future by listening to players that take the time to test out changes on the PTS and provide their feedback. They're trying to help make the game better. Please listen.

This was a non issue on release Warden as although their stun was tied to their ult, they had in compensation access to powerful snares with their Frost Abilities. Personally, I think Frozen should be added as a status effect that has like a 2% chance to proc on Chilled targets when they take Frost Damage.
But if people want an on demand stun, then why not have Elemental Ring and Pulsar stun Chilled targets?
Nightingale also has a decent suggestion with it being a projectile that stuns on hit but also keeps its swirling wind effect as a DoT.
It used to be a projectile, but many players complained about losing the wind DoT which was a fair point and so it was reverted. But the simple fix was combining them while removing the heal. Polar Wind in this case could keep the heal, have increased duration, and still stun as it does now in its current form.

In a nutshell:

Arctic Blast: On demand projectile stun, keeps its wind effect for like 8 seconds but does not heal.

Polar Wind: Keeps heal, keeps wind effect for longer say 12 seconds and more damage per tick with increased radius like 2 meters bigger. Stuns after 5 hits as it does now.

Alternatively: Frost Impulse and morphs stun Chilled targets.

Another option: Structured Entropy renamed to Heat Death: Deals Frost Damage over time and stuns targets hit.

Frost impulse and it's morphs stunning targets would hamper it's status as an aoe spammable for pve. We all know minor protection is useless. But I'm not sure that a stun is it either. And I'm really not a fan of a random stun status effect related to frost as you can't control that. Random stuns are really really bad. That's the entire problem with warden's existing stuns at the moment.

MindOfTheSwarm

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

doesurmindglow wrote: »

I've seen a lot of really absurd balance changes in my time playing this game but this has to be really up there. Worse still, numerous threads were created about it during PTS, dozens of players gave thoughtful, experienced feedback that the change was a step in the wrong direction, that it misunderstood pretty dramatically the challenges a particular class is facing, and that it woefully overestimated that class's offensive capability, especially in PVP.

I think IsThereNo1Else has done a good job of summarizing a lot of the concerns and discussing why the change so deeply missed the mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z_tBjsY_y8

I tend to agree with his complaint both in particular and in general. The issue isn't merely that changes to Arctic Blast are a step in the wrong direction. The bigger and much more important issue is how critical it is to seriously consider the feedback players are providing on PTS.

I'm hoping the lack of offensive tools in the Warden's kit are given another look in a future patch. The class needs access to similar tools as the other classes, including an undodgeable, unblockable stun, OR the other classes need to have their access to CC reined in. It's also just kinda ridiculous that a class so heavily focused on ice-themed abilities has no ability to reliably and effectively CC.

i hope also we can avoid this kind of mistake in the future by listening to players that take the time to test out changes on the PTS and provide their feedback. They're trying to help make the game better. Please listen.

This was a non issue on release Warden as although their stun was tied to their ult, they had in compensation access to powerful snares with their Frost Abilities. Personally, I think Frozen should be added as a status effect that has like a 2% chance to proc on Chilled targets when they take Frost Damage.
But if people want an on demand stun, then why not have Elemental Ring and Pulsar stun Chilled targets?
Nightingale also has a decent suggestion with it being a projectile that stuns on hit but also keeps its swirling wind effect as a DoT.
It used to be a projectile, but many players complained about losing the wind DoT which was a fair point and so it was reverted. But the simple fix was combining them while removing the heal. Polar Wind in this case could keep the heal, have increased duration, and still stun as it does now in its current form.

In a nutshell:

Arctic Blast: On demand projectile stun, keeps its wind effect for like 8 seconds but does not heal.

Polar Wind: Keeps heal, keeps wind effect for longer say 12 seconds and more damage per tick with increased radius like 2 meters bigger. Stuns after 5 hits as it does now.

Alternatively: Frost Impulse and morphs stun Chilled targets.

Another option: Structured Entropy renamed to Heat Death: Deals Frost Damage over time and stuns targets hit.

Frost impulse and it's morphs stunning targets would hamper it's status as an aoe spammable for pve. We all know minor protection is useless. But I'm not sure that a stun is it either. And I'm really not a fan of a random stun status effect related to frost as you can't control that. Random stuns are really really bad. That's the entire problem with warden's existing stuns at the moment.

But who really uses Frost Impulse or Ring as an AOE spammable? Unstable wall costs exactly the same, covers a larger area and deals more damage on explosion which can be triggered at any time. It has enough range too for most content, Ring might be better for longer ranges such as PVP wall defense but that's about it.

MindOfTheSwarm

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

doesurmindglow wrote: »

I've seen a lot of really absurd balance changes in my time playing this game but this has to be really up there. Worse still, numerous threads were created about it during PTS, dozens of players gave thoughtful, experienced feedback that the change was a step in the wrong direction, that it misunderstood pretty dramatically the challenges a particular class is facing, and that it woefully overestimated that class's offensive capability, especially in PVP.

I think IsThereNo1Else has done a good job of summarizing a lot of the concerns and discussing why the change so deeply missed the mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z_tBjsY_y8

I tend to agree with his complaint both in particular and in general. The issue isn't merely that changes to Arctic Blast are a step in the wrong direction. The bigger and much more important issue is how critical it is to seriously consider the feedback players are providing on PTS.

I'm hoping the lack of offensive tools in the Warden's kit are given another look in a future patch. The class needs access to similar tools as the other classes, including an undodgeable, unblockable stun, OR the other classes need to have their access to CC reined in. It's also just kinda ridiculous that a class so heavily focused on ice-themed abilities has no ability to reliably and effectively CC.

i hope also we can avoid this kind of mistake in the future by listening to players that take the time to test out changes on the PTS and provide their feedback. They're trying to help make the game better. Please listen.

This was a non issue on release Warden as although their stun was tied to their ult, they had in compensation access to powerful snares with their Frost Abilities. Personally, I think Frozen should be added as a status effect that has like a 2% chance to proc on Chilled targets when they take Frost Damage.
But if people want an on demand stun, then why not have Elemental Ring and Pulsar stun Chilled targets?
Nightingale also has a decent suggestion with it being a projectile that stuns on hit but also keeps its swirling wind effect as a DoT.
It used to be a projectile, but many players complained about losing the wind DoT which was a fair point and so it was reverted. But the simple fix was combining them while removing the heal. Polar Wind in this case could keep the heal, have increased duration, and still stun as it does now in its current form.

In a nutshell:

Arctic Blast: On demand projectile stun, keeps its wind effect for like 8 seconds but does not heal.

Polar Wind: Keeps heal, keeps wind effect for longer say 12 seconds and more damage per tick with increased radius like 2 meters bigger. Stuns after 5 hits as it does now.

Alternatively: Frost Impulse and morphs stun Chilled targets.

Another option: Structured Entropy renamed to Heat Death: Deals Frost Damage over time and stuns targets hit.

Frost impulse and it's morphs stunning targets would hamper it's status as an aoe spammable for pve. We all know minor protection is useless. But I'm not sure that a stun is it either. And I'm really not a fan of a random stun status effect related to frost as you can't control that. Random stuns are really really bad. That's the entire problem with warden's existing stuns at the moment.

But who really uses Frost Impulse or Ring as an AOE spammable? Unstable wall costs exactly the same, covers a larger area and deals more damage on explosion which can be triggered at any time. It has enough range too for most content, Ring might be better for longer ranges such as PVP wall defense but that's about it.

I do think there is a case for at least Pulsar keeping its Minor Protection and also stunning. I don't think that Frost tanks would complain with an AoE nova stun. For ranged builds sure perhaps something else is needed but like I said who is using these skills as AOE spammable when Unstable Wall exists.

Unstable Tooltip is about 500 more and it's initial DoT hits instantly which ends up to about another 1k. All for the exact same Magicka cost. I fail to see any benefit to ever running Impulse on a Frost DD unless you have a Blackrose Staff of course.

ESO_Nightingale

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

doesurmindglow wrote: »

I've seen a lot of really absurd balance changes in my time playing this game but this has to be really up there. Worse still, numerous threads were created about it during PTS, dozens of players gave thoughtful, experienced feedback that the change was a step in the wrong direction, that it misunderstood pretty dramatically the challenges a particular class is facing, and that it woefully overestimated that class's offensive capability, especially in PVP.

I think IsThereNo1Else has done a good job of summarizing a lot of the concerns and discussing why the change so deeply missed the mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z_tBjsY_y8

I tend to agree with his complaint both in particular and in general. The issue isn't merely that changes to Arctic Blast are a step in the wrong direction. The bigger and much more important issue is how critical it is to seriously consider the feedback players are providing on PTS.

I'm hoping the lack of offensive tools in the Warden's kit are given another look in a future patch. The class needs access to similar tools as the other classes, including an undodgeable, unblockable stun, OR the other classes need to have their access to CC reined in. It's also just kinda ridiculous that a class so heavily focused on ice-themed abilities has no ability to reliably and effectively CC.

i hope also we can avoid this kind of mistake in the future by listening to players that take the time to test out changes on the PTS and provide their feedback. They're trying to help make the game better. Please listen.

This was a non issue on release Warden as although their stun was tied to their ult, they had in compensation access to powerful snares with their Frost Abilities. Personally, I think Frozen should be added as a status effect that has like a 2% chance to proc on Chilled targets when they take Frost Damage.
But if people want an on demand stun, then why not have Elemental Ring and Pulsar stun Chilled targets?
Nightingale also has a decent suggestion with it being a projectile that stuns on hit but also keeps its swirling wind effect as a DoT.
It used to be a projectile, but many players complained about losing the wind DoT which was a fair point and so it was reverted. But the simple fix was combining them while removing the heal. Polar Wind in this case could keep the heal, have increased duration, and still stun as it does now in its current form.

In a nutshell:

Arctic Blast: On demand projectile stun, keeps its wind effect for like 8 seconds but does not heal.

Polar Wind: Keeps heal, keeps wind effect for longer say 12 seconds and more damage per tick with increased radius like 2 meters bigger. Stuns after 5 hits as it does now.

Alternatively: Frost Impulse and morphs stun Chilled targets.

Another option: Structured Entropy renamed to Heat Death: Deals Frost Damage over time and stuns targets hit.

Frost impulse and it's morphs stunning targets would hamper it's status as an aoe spammable for pve. We all know minor protection is useless. But I'm not sure that a stun is it either. And I'm really not a fan of a random stun status effect related to frost as you can't control that. Random stuns are really really bad. That's the entire problem with warden's existing stuns at the moment.

But who really uses Frost Impulse or Ring as an AOE spammable? Unstable wall costs exactly the same, covers a larger area and deals more damage on explosion which can be triggered at any time. It has enough range too for most content, Ring might be better for longer ranges such as PVP wall defense but that's about it.

i do. it almost always applies chilled in aoe with charged while also doing aoe mangle too. and it's also cheaper than spamming unstable frost wall, and does it's burst instantly. it's frost effect sucks, but it's very underrated, besides, you'll have unstable's DoT ticking at the same time.

ESO_Nightingale

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

doesurmindglow wrote: »

I've seen a lot of really absurd balance changes in my time playing this game but this has to be really up there. Worse still, numerous threads were created about it during PTS, dozens of players gave thoughtful, experienced feedback that the change was a step in the wrong direction, that it misunderstood pretty dramatically the challenges a particular class is facing, and that it woefully overestimated that class's offensive capability, especially in PVP.

I think IsThereNo1Else has done a good job of summarizing a lot of the concerns and discussing why the change so deeply missed the mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z_tBjsY_y8

I tend to agree with his complaint both in particular and in general. The issue isn't merely that changes to Arctic Blast are a step in the wrong direction. The bigger and much more important issue is how critical it is to seriously consider the feedback players are providing on PTS.

I'm hoping the lack of offensive tools in the Warden's kit are given another look in a future patch. The class needs access to similar tools as the other classes, including an undodgeable, unblockable stun, OR the other classes need to have their access to CC reined in. It's also just kinda ridiculous that a class so heavily focused on ice-themed abilities has no ability to reliably and effectively CC.

i hope also we can avoid this kind of mistake in the future by listening to players that take the time to test out changes on the PTS and provide their feedback. They're trying to help make the game better. Please listen.

This was a non issue on release Warden as although their stun was tied to their ult, they had in compensation access to powerful snares with their Frost Abilities. Personally, I think Frozen should be added as a status effect that has like a 2% chance to proc on Chilled targets when they take Frost Damage.
But if people want an on demand stun, then why not have Elemental Ring and Pulsar stun Chilled targets?
Nightingale also has a decent suggestion with it being a projectile that stuns on hit but also keeps its swirling wind effect as a DoT.
It used to be a projectile, but many players complained about losing the wind DoT which was a fair point and so it was reverted. But the simple fix was combining them while removing the heal. Polar Wind in this case could keep the heal, have increased duration, and still stun as it does now in its current form.

In a nutshell:

Arctic Blast: On demand projectile stun, keeps its wind effect for like 8 seconds but does not heal.

Polar Wind: Keeps heal, keeps wind effect for longer say 12 seconds and more damage per tick with increased radius like 2 meters bigger. Stuns after 5 hits as it does now.

Alternatively: Frost Impulse and morphs stun Chilled targets.

Another option: Structured Entropy renamed to Heat Death: Deals Frost Damage over time and stuns targets hit.

Frost impulse and it's morphs stunning targets would hamper it's status as an aoe spammable for pve. We all know minor protection is useless. But I'm not sure that a stun is it either. And I'm really not a fan of a random stun status effect related to frost as you can't control that. Random stuns are really really bad. That's the entire problem with warden's existing stuns at the moment.

But who really uses Frost Impulse or Ring as an AOE spammable? Unstable wall costs exactly the same, covers a larger area and deals more damage on explosion which can be triggered at any time. It has enough range too for most content, Ring might be better for longer ranges such as PVP wall defense but that's about it.

I do think there is a case for at least Pulsar keeping its Minor Protection and also stunning. I don't think that Frost tanks would complain with an AoE nova stun. For ranged builds sure perhaps something else is needed but like I said who is using these skills as AOE spammable when Unstable Wall exists.

Unstable Tooltip is about 500 more and it's initial DoT hits instantly which ends up to about another 1k. All for the exact same Magicka cost. I fail to see any benefit to ever running Impulse on a Frost DD unless you have a Blackrose Staff of course.

Nope, frost pulsar is a solid aoe spammable since it applies minor mangle and is very effective at applying chilled in aoe, effectively adding to it's tooltip's damage. I'd only consider running frost ring if it had a good effect to it, which it doesn't. And you can prebuff pulsar with master ice too. Blackrose is awful.

MindOfTheSwarm

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

doesurmindglow wrote: »

I've seen a lot of really absurd balance changes in my time playing this game but this has to be really up there. Worse still, numerous threads were created about it during PTS, dozens of players gave thoughtful, experienced feedback that the change was a step in the wrong direction, that it misunderstood pretty dramatically the challenges a particular class is facing, and that it woefully overestimated that class's offensive capability, especially in PVP.

I think IsThereNo1Else has done a good job of summarizing a lot of the concerns and discussing why the change so deeply missed the mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z_tBjsY_y8

I tend to agree with his complaint both in particular and in general. The issue isn't merely that changes to Arctic Blast are a step in the wrong direction. The bigger and much more important issue is how critical it is to seriously consider the feedback players are providing on PTS.

I'm hoping the lack of offensive tools in the Warden's kit are given another look in a future patch. The class needs access to similar tools as the other classes, including an undodgeable, unblockable stun, OR the other classes need to have their access to CC reined in. It's also just kinda ridiculous that a class so heavily focused on ice-themed abilities has no ability to reliably and effectively CC.

i hope also we can avoid this kind of mistake in the future by listening to players that take the time to test out changes on the PTS and provide their feedback. They're trying to help make the game better. Please listen.

This was a non issue on release Warden as although their stun was tied to their ult, they had in compensation access to powerful snares with their Frost Abilities. Personally, I think Frozen should be added as a status effect that has like a 2% chance to proc on Chilled targets when they take Frost Damage.
But if people want an on demand stun, then why not have Elemental Ring and Pulsar stun Chilled targets?
Nightingale also has a decent suggestion with it being a projectile that stuns on hit but also keeps its swirling wind effect as a DoT.
It used to be a projectile, but many players complained about losing the wind DoT which was a fair point and so it was reverted. But the simple fix was combining them while removing the heal. Polar Wind in this case could keep the heal, have increased duration, and still stun as it does now in its current form.

In a nutshell:

Arctic Blast: On demand projectile stun, keeps its wind effect for like 8 seconds but does not heal.

Polar Wind: Keeps heal, keeps wind effect for longer say 12 seconds and more damage per tick with increased radius like 2 meters bigger. Stuns after 5 hits as it does now.

Alternatively: Frost Impulse and morphs stun Chilled targets.

Another option: Structured Entropy renamed to Heat Death: Deals Frost Damage over time and stuns targets hit.

Frost impulse and it's morphs stunning targets would hamper it's status as an aoe spammable for pve. We all know minor protection is useless. But I'm not sure that a stun is it either. And I'm really not a fan of a random stun status effect related to frost as you can't control that. Random stuns are really really bad. That's the entire problem with warden's existing stuns at the moment.

But who really uses Frost Impulse or Ring as an AOE spammable? Unstable wall costs exactly the same, covers a larger area and deals more damage on explosion which can be triggered at any time. It has enough range too for most content, Ring might be better for longer ranges such as PVP wall defense but that's about it.

I do think there is a case for at least Pulsar keeping its Minor Protection and also stunning. I don't think that Frost tanks would complain with an AoE nova stun. For ranged builds sure perhaps something else is needed but like I said who is using these skills as AOE spammable when Unstable Wall exists.

Unstable Tooltip is about 500 more and it's initial DoT hits instantly which ends up to about another 1k. All for the exact same Magicka cost. I fail to see any benefit to ever running Impulse on a Frost DD unless you have a Blackrose Staff of course.

Nope, frost pulsar is a solid aoe spammable since it applies minor mangle and is very effective at applying chilled in aoe, effectively adding to it's tooltip's damage. I'd only consider running frost ring if it had a good effect to it, which it doesn't. And you can prebuff pulsar with master ice too. Blackrose is awful.

I don’t understand why Blackrose and Vateshran staff have multiple damage types. Why not just have them apply that damage that matches their type? And Vateshran seems like a really weak DoT imo.

ESO_Nightingale

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

doesurmindglow wrote: »

I've seen a lot of really absurd balance changes in my time playing this game but this has to be really up there. Worse still, numerous threads were created about it during PTS, dozens of players gave thoughtful, experienced feedback that the change was a step in the wrong direction, that it misunderstood pretty dramatically the challenges a particular class is facing, and that it woefully overestimated that class's offensive capability, especially in PVP.

I think IsThereNo1Else has done a good job of summarizing a lot of the concerns and discussing why the change so deeply missed the mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z_tBjsY_y8

I tend to agree with his complaint both in particular and in general. The issue isn't merely that changes to Arctic Blast are a step in the wrong direction. The bigger and much more important issue is how critical it is to seriously consider the feedback players are providing on PTS.

I'm hoping the lack of offensive tools in the Warden's kit are given another look in a future patch. The class needs access to similar tools as the other classes, including an undodgeable, unblockable stun, OR the other classes need to have their access to CC reined in. It's also just kinda ridiculous that a class so heavily focused on ice-themed abilities has no ability to reliably and effectively CC.

i hope also we can avoid this kind of mistake in the future by listening to players that take the time to test out changes on the PTS and provide their feedback. They're trying to help make the game better. Please listen.

This was a non issue on release Warden as although their stun was tied to their ult, they had in compensation access to powerful snares with their Frost Abilities. Personally, I think Frozen should be added as a status effect that has like a 2% chance to proc on Chilled targets when they take Frost Damage.
But if people want an on demand stun, then why not have Elemental Ring and Pulsar stun Chilled targets?
Nightingale also has a decent suggestion with it being a projectile that stuns on hit but also keeps its swirling wind effect as a DoT.
It used to be a projectile, but many players complained about losing the wind DoT which was a fair point and so it was reverted. But the simple fix was combining them while removing the heal. Polar Wind in this case could keep the heal, have increased duration, and still stun as it does now in its current form.

In a nutshell:

Arctic Blast: On demand projectile stun, keeps its wind effect for like 8 seconds but does not heal.

Polar Wind: Keeps heal, keeps wind effect for longer say 12 seconds and more damage per tick with increased radius like 2 meters bigger. Stuns after 5 hits as it does now.

Alternatively: Frost Impulse and morphs stun Chilled targets.

Another option: Structured Entropy renamed to Heat Death: Deals Frost Damage over time and stuns targets hit.

Frost impulse and it's morphs stunning targets would hamper it's status as an aoe spammable for pve. We all know minor protection is useless. But I'm not sure that a stun is it either. And I'm really not a fan of a random stun status effect related to frost as you can't control that. Random stuns are really really bad. That's the entire problem with warden's existing stuns at the moment.

But who really uses Frost Impulse or Ring as an AOE spammable? Unstable wall costs exactly the same, covers a larger area and deals more damage on explosion which can be triggered at any time. It has enough range too for most content, Ring might be better for longer ranges such as PVP wall defense but that's about it.

I do think there is a case for at least Pulsar keeping its Minor Protection and also stunning. I don't think that Frost tanks would complain with an AoE nova stun. For ranged builds sure perhaps something else is needed but like I said who is using these skills as AOE spammable when Unstable Wall exists.

Unstable Tooltip is about 500 more and it's initial DoT hits instantly which ends up to about another 1k. All for the exact same Magicka cost. I fail to see any benefit to ever running Impulse on a Frost DD unless you have a Blackrose Staff of course.

Nope, frost pulsar is a solid aoe spammable since it applies minor mangle and is very effective at applying chilled in aoe, effectively adding to it's tooltip's damage. I'd only consider running frost ring if it had a good effect to it, which it doesn't. And you can prebuff pulsar with master ice too. Blackrose is awful.

I don’t understand why Blackrose and Vateshran staff have multiple damage types. Why not just have them apply that damage that matches their type? And Vateshran seems like a really weak DoT imo.

i totally agree, but i think it should honestly just be reworked anyway. for an aoe spammable, having a 10 second long-duration DoT on it makes no sense especially when it's that awful