Stamsorcs out here parsing 140k

spacefracking

When will this be hotpatched? Magblade is lucky to hit 100k right now. Stamblade crystal weapon is just completely broken.

140k. That is just so far beyond broken I don't even know where to begin.

And fr, this magblade-nerfing patch by patch has gotten it down to the lowest parsing class, with no buffs to provide to the group. Why does it even exist anymore?

Arthtur

I thought Sorc had Crystal Weapon not NB... oh well.

Cadbury

I'm more concerned about all the Magwardens using Dragon Leap and those pesky Templars and their OP corrosive armor.

wolfie1.0.

Maybe we should just remove damage from the game. It seems like it causes more problems than its worth.

Jaimeh

Yep, this update has a bigger disparity in damage between classes than before. I've seen 140k stamsorc parses, but even the best NBs out there could hardly hit ~120k. It's very disheartening (especially when you love to play a class that's currently under performing), but like always, the only thing to do is make zos aware, and hope things will change in the next update.

Arunei

Okay but like...people have always been able to hit these numbers in the past if they min/maxed to the extreme. Which people are getting these numbers, how often is it happening, how many people are ACTUALLY getting these numbers regularly, reliably, and all the time? Are these people in a group that might be very tightly coordinated? Because a lot of the time the people hitting these numbers are doing it with coordinated buffs, ults, and so on, and it tends to be burst damage not sustained through an entire fight.

Is it PvP or PvE? That also matters. People keep coming to the forums yelling about OP stuff without offering any sort of evidence/research to actually back up what they're saying. Can we stop complaining about things without offering some sort of proof? Because most of the time this results in knee-jerk blanket nerfs that just make things worse.

Thecompton73

Arunei wrote: »

Okay but like...people have always been able to hit these numbers in the past if they min/maxed to the extreme. Which people are getting these numbers, how often is it happening, how many people are ACTUALLY getting these numbers regularly, reliably, and all the time? Are these people in a group that might be very tightly coordinated? Because a lot of the time the people hitting these numbers are doing it with coordinated buffs, ults, and so on, and it tends to be burst damage not sustained through an entire fight.

Is it PvP or PvE? That also matters. People keep coming to the forums yelling about OP stuff without offering any sort of evidence/research to actually back up what they're saying. Can we stop complaining about things without offering some sort of proof? Because most of the time this results in knee-jerk blanket nerfs that just make things worse.

Nobody Parses in PvP, don't drag it into a conversation about nerfs cleary coming from a PvE perspective.

Arthtur

120k? Thats sweet. I still didnt saw 120k+ DK parse xD the best i saw was 117k :x

But if we want to talk serious - Yes ZOS just did it again. But StamSorcs wont dominate trials because they lack AOE damage. Well maybe except AS. There aoe doesnt matter that much.

But we cant do much about it because ZOS refuses to balance PvE and PvP separately.
For example:
In PvE DKs are the lowest dps on dummy right now (NB is the lowest if we add Encratis) and sustain is a pain (solo play/without support in groups)
In PvP DKs are still "broken". At least ppl still complain about them. Or want to nerf them because of new mythic... sigh...
So yeah, we have "nice" situation. And its not only DKs. There are diffrent classes who have this problem too.

For me "balance" would be when:
NB, Sorc - 140k - Best Single target but weaker aoe
Necro, Warden, Templar - 135k - Good single target and aoe
DK - 130k - weakest single target but the best AOE
(Im not saying those numbers are good. Damage is going up too much. I just wanted to show how rankings should look in my opinion)
In PvP its diffrent story of course.

But hey, we dont have many trials where single target is more important so we wont see NB/Sorc dominating trials anyway. Maybe if ZOS would create diffrent trials we would see more classes in action....

And current "top" parses that i saw.

MagDK - 117k
StamDK - 115.5k (No "stam" whip)

MagNB - 120k
StamNB - 121k

MagPlar - X Should be between 120k-125k
StamPlar - 124.5k

MagSorc - 120k
StamSorc - 140k

MagDen - X Should be still 120k+
StamDen - 135k

MagCro - 125.9k
StamCro - 131k

All those parses are from YT.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Arunei wrote: »

Okay but like...people have always been able to hit these numbers in the past if they min/maxed to the extreme. Which people are getting these numbers, how often is it happening, how many people are ACTUALLY getting these numbers regularly, reliably, and all the time? Are these people in a group that might be very tightly coordinated? Because a lot of the time the people hitting these numbers are doing it with coordinated buffs, ults, and so on, and it tends to be burst damage not sustained through an entire fight.

Is it PvP or PvE? That also matters. People keep coming to the forums yelling about OP stuff without offering any sort of evidence/research to actually back up what they're saying. Can we stop complaining about things without offering some sort of proof? Because most of the time this results in knee-jerk blanket nerfs that just make things worse.

They are trial dummy parses, because they are objectively the best way to compare classes. The raw numbers dont mean a whole lot (other than to tell us damage is super high right now), but how they compare to each other on a percent basis is super important from a balance perspective. A 20k DPS disparity between classes is a LOT. I have not personally parsed on any class this patch, but all signs point to stam sorc being very overtuned, and nightblade frankly not worth playing for the vast majority of competitive PVE content.

Also, 140k PVP parse? What does that even mean? I cant quite tell if you are trolling...

Tannus15

it's not a perfect metric, but looking over the new trial vet and rock grove hm, sorc representation is slightly better this patch, but it's not even close to dominating anything.

maybe things will shift over time, but it doesn't look like anything to worry about right now.

Didgerion

spacefracking wrote: »

When will this be hotpatched? Magblade is lucky to hit 100k right now. Stamblade crystal weapon is just completely broken.

140k. That is just so far beyond broken I don't even know where to begin.

And fr, this magblade-nerfing patch by patch has gotten it down to the lowest parsing class, with no buffs to provide to the group. Why does it even exist anymore?

But it is not all about parsing!

It is also about utility the class brings to the group and other things. For example stamsorc has got no utility thus it compensates through the damage.

You are whining now because you want it all: best DPS, best utility, best sustain...and frankly I think you picked a wrong class to compare to. It you ask me then I think templar is the most OP class now. I see GodPlar videos all over the places now, and not a single GodStamsorc video yet.

MrGarlic

These figures are outliers on the statistics.

I hope ZOS doesn't factor them in when they make nerfs as the majority of the player base will never achieve those DPS rates.

Cadbury

Considering the current discussion about Corrosive Armor being OP and now people turning their attentions to StamSorc/ Crystal Weapon, I'm now worried they'll take another look at DK and possibly Oaken and/or CW.

Guess we'll see next patch...

spacefracking

Arthtur wrote: »

I thought Sorc had Crystal Weapon not NB... oh well.

Lol, just reread what I wrote..

spacefracking

Arunei wrote: »

Okay but like...people have always been able to hit these numbers in the past if they min/maxed to the extreme. Which people are getting these numbers, how often is it happening, how many people are ACTUALLY getting these numbers regularly, reliably, and all the time? Are these people in a group that might be very tightly coordinated? Because a lot of the time the people hitting these numbers are doing it with coordinated buffs, ults, and so on, and it tends to be burst damage not sustained through an entire fight.

Is it PvP or PvE? That also matters. People keep coming to the forums yelling about OP stuff without offering any sort of evidence/research to actually back up what they're saying. Can we stop complaining about things without offering some sort of proof? Because most of the time this results in knee-jerk blanket nerfs that just make things worse.

No one has ever hit 140k. 130k would be a once in a thousand bit of luck with crits. It's completely broken. 30% of stamsorc damage is from crystal weapon

spacefracking

Jaimeh wrote: »

Yep, this update has a bigger disparity in damage between classes than before. I've seen 140k stamsorc parses, but even the best NBs out there could hardly hit ~120k. It's very disheartening (especially when you love to play a class that's currently under performing), but like always, the only thing to do is make zos aware, and hope things will change in the next update.

If you've seen a 120k non-youtube parse for a magblade, please post is here

spacefracking

MrGarlic wrote: »

These figures are outliers on the statistics.

I hope ZOS doesn't factor them in when they make nerfs as the majority of the player base will never achieve those DPS rates.

They are *definitely* not outliers on statistics. Join one of the larger raiding discords and look at their parse channel. 80% of people are just posting stamsorc parses for their tags to get rostered for trials. Stamsorc is just plain broken. I've seen dozens of 130k+ stamsorc parses in the last week.

Paralyse

Stamsorc is in a great place right now. I have mixed emotions about this, as a lifelong Magsorc, watching as the devs continue to push us all into stam builds.

Before Blackwood: 2 staves (set frontbar and maelstrom backbar), false gods or siroria/mothers sorrow, all magicka skills except trap, all light armor

Early Blackwood: 2 staves (set frontbar and maelstrom backbar), kinras/bahsei, 2 pc medium, 5 pc light, all magicka except trap

Mid Blackwood: 2 AY daggers, maelstrom inferno staff backbar, kinras/bahsei, 1/1/5 or 2 med/5 lt, almost all magicka skills except trap and hurricane

End Blackwood: 2 AY daggers, maelstrom greatsword backbar, relequen/AY, 1 lt/6 med or all medium armor, hybrid stamina/magicka skills (stampede, carve, trap, cloak sometimes, hurricane/caltrops, but also wall, frags, wrath, pets)

Start of High Isle (this is going from memory, pardon any errors): 2 vateshran daggers, maelstrom greatsword backbar, relequen/AY, all medium armor, crystal weapon, mostly stamina skills, 130k-140k* (meta -- I have not finished this build yet but those are the numbers people are hitting with that gear)

I have come to the conclusion that the devs really, really want magsorc to be completely non-viable this chapter and I will need to go all in on stamsorc to stay competitive. When running fresh content like vDSR/vDSR HM's, 140k vs 105k-115k is a big deal, enough to affect gameplay quite a bit.

MrGarlic

spacefracking wrote: »

MrGarlic wrote: »

These figures are outliers on the statistics.

I hope ZOS doesn't factor them in when they make nerfs as the majority of the player base will never achieve those DPS rates.

They are *definitely* not outliers on statistics. Join one of the larger raiding discords and look at their parse channel. 80% of people are just posting stamsorc parses for their tags to get rostered for trials. Stamsorc is just plain broken. I've seen dozens of 130k+ stamsorc parses in the last week.

Those are still outliers.

A small, hardcore group of really good players are a small minority. Even if there are 100 people doing 130k DPS, that is still statistically, next to nothing compared with the entire active player-base. The majority of players can not achieve even half, a third or even a quarter of that parse.

WrathOfInnos

Tannus15 wrote: »

it's not a perfect metric, but looking over the new trial vet and rock grove hm, sorc representation is slightly better this patch, but it's not even close to dominating anything.

maybe things will shift over time, but it doesn't look like anything to worry about right now.

I agree. Stam sorc is extremely optimized for a single target dummy parse. It seems to be about equal to MagDK and Necro in real content. They lose a lot of damage if there is any movement or mechanics. Every missed/outranged light attack means losing the damage of your crystal weapon as well, and failing to build a stack of Bound Armaments. It is less forgiving than nightblade in this sense. Sorc also has terrible cleave, which is important on all 3 bosses in Dreadsail.

spacefracking

MrGarlic wrote: »

spacefracking wrote: »

MrGarlic wrote: »

These figures are outliers on the statistics.

I hope ZOS doesn't factor them in when they make nerfs as the majority of the player base will never achieve those DPS rates.

They are *definitely* not outliers on statistics. Join one of the larger raiding discords and look at their parse channel. 80% of people are just posting stamsorc parses for their tags to get rostered for trials. Stamsorc is just plain broken. I've seen dozens of 130k+ stamsorc parses in the last week.

Those are still outliers.

A small, hardcore group of really good players are a small minority. Even if there are 100 people doing 130k DPS, that is still statistically, next to nothing compared with the entire active player-base. The majority of players can not achieve even half, a third or even a quarter of that parse.

They aren't outliers. Just ask people who run any kind of dlc hm content what they've seen.

Hapexamendios

spacefracking wrote: »

MrGarlic wrote: »

spacefracking wrote: »

MrGarlic wrote: »

These figures are outliers on the statistics.

I hope ZOS doesn't factor them in when they make nerfs as the majority of the player base will never achieve those DPS rates.

They are *definitely* not outliers on statistics. Join one of the larger raiding discords and look at their parse channel. 80% of people are just posting stamsorc parses for their tags to get rostered for trials. Stamsorc is just plain broken. I've seen dozens of 130k+ stamsorc parses in the last week.

Those are still outliers.

A small, hardcore group of really good players are a small minority. Even if there are 100 people doing 130k DPS, that is still statistically, next to nothing compared with the entire active player-base. The majority of players can not achieve even half, a third or even a quarter of that parse.

They aren't outliers. Just ask people who run any kind of dlc hm content what they've seen.

The people who run any kind of dlc hm content are themselves an outlier of the active player base. You basically just proved his point.

wolfie1.0.

On a more serious note. Parses are just a dumb metric to go off of for any real dps comparison. Dummies don't debuff the player, they don't fight back.

SeaGtGruff

Arunei wrote: »

Okay but like...people have always been able to hit these numbers in the past if they min/maxed to the extreme.

Exactly. I play a StamSorc main on my main server, and I guarantee that I'm not getting anywhere close to those numbers. If a StamSorc is able to achieve incredible DPS right now, it's most likely coming from a combination of things-- dumping all APs into Stamina; wearing gear that increases maximum Stamina and Stamina regeneration, or reduces the cost of Stamina skills; investing in, and slotting, CP skills that increase max Stam and Stam regen, or that increase damage done by certain types of attacks; using Stam-oriented food and drink, as well as potions; etc. There's a lot more to it than simply being a StamSorc.

Grandchamp1989

Would probably be a decent idea to reverse the crystal frag change for stam sorc.. Just a thought.

francesinhalover

Just remove crystal weapon and give stam sorce a purple veiled strike

Tannus15

francesinhalover wrote: »

Just remove crystal weapon and give stam sorce a purple veiled strike

i mean, we have purple bow proc, why not make us a carbon copy of nightblade

Vylaera

Dragonknights were parsing 150k last patch. A Super High Ceiling is fine, as that means it's easier to reach good levels of DPS meaning more people get to play higher end content. Or do a total class overhaul and bring the ceiling to 100k dps for everyone (nice round number) and adjust content accordingly.

I'm glad that Sorcs can parse high again. Sorcs have been trash tier for a very long time. Nightblades should be able to do good damage too. Rather than tearing others down, ask to bring up the classes that aren't there still. Magsorc could be higher still but I'm not complaining about stamsorc being too high, I want magsorc to rise up alongside. I'd like to see Elemental Weapon from Psijic order get a tweak to either differentiate itself or be a copy of Crystal Weapon so that mag gets a likewise spammable. Keep Crushing Weapon the way it is now since it's mostly used to apply the debuff.

Arunei

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Okay but like...people have always been able to hit these numbers in the past if they min/maxed to the extreme. Which people are getting these numbers, how often is it happening, how many people are ACTUALLY getting these numbers regularly, reliably, and all the time? Are these people in a group that might be very tightly coordinated? Because a lot of the time the people hitting these numbers are doing it with coordinated buffs, ults, and so on, and it tends to be burst damage not sustained through an entire fight.

Is it PvP or PvE? That also matters. People keep coming to the forums yelling about OP stuff without offering any sort of evidence/research to actually back up what they're saying. Can we stop complaining about things without offering some sort of proof? Because most of the time this results in knee-jerk blanket nerfs that just make things worse.

They are trial dummy parses, because they are objectively the best way to compare classes. The raw numbers dont mean a whole lot (other than to tell us damage is super high right now), but how they compare to each other on a percent basis is super important from a balance perspective. A 20k DPS disparity between classes is a LOT. I have not personally parsed on any class this patch, but all signs point to stam sorc being very overtuned, and nightblade frankly not worth playing for the vast majority of competitive PVE content.

Also, 140k PVP parse? What does that even mean? I cant quite tell if you are trolling...

Ooooor maybe it's because I don't PvP enough to know that people don't parse for it? Why does something have to be trolling? And like I said, this has been happening for years. There have always been people who could hit ridiculous numbers with pretty much any Class and have these big gaps if they built into it hardcore.

spacefracking wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Okay but like...people have always been able to hit these numbers in the past if they min/maxed to the extreme. Which people are getting these numbers, how often is it happening, how many people are ACTUALLY getting these numbers regularly, reliably, and all the time? Are these people in a group that might be very tightly coordinated? Because a lot of the time the people hitting these numbers are doing it with coordinated buffs, ults, and so on, and it tends to be burst damage not sustained through an entire fight.

Is it PvP or PvE? That also matters. People keep coming to the forums yelling about OP stuff without offering any sort of evidence/research to actually back up what they're saying. Can we stop complaining about things without offering some sort of proof? Because most of the time this results in knee-jerk blanket nerfs that just make things worse.

No one has ever hit 140k. 130k would be a once in a thousand bit of luck with crits. It's completely broken. 30% of stamsorc damage is from crystal weapon

Uh...go look up any number of guides that proclaim hitting 100k+ DPS. It's been going on for years. But what most of these guides don't mention in their clickbait title is the fact that they high damage is usually burst damage and not sustain. So again; where is the proof of people consistently and reliably hitting these high numbers with sustain?

And like was mentioned, parsing doesn't really mean anything, because those trial dummies give you pretty much every buff iirc (except one or two I think, can't remember which one), they don't debuff you, and they don't fight back. You don't have to constantly reposition and block and dodge roll with a trial dummy. People put so much stock by DPS you generally won't get in actual content, and don't account enough for individual skill that could cause them to parse really high when the average player wouldn't parse the high.

So please, can we start providing actual proof and having more actual conversations about topics like this, instead of "X is too OP and I don't like it!"? As I said, people complain about things instead of discussing them and then we get these huge nerfs across the board.

MudcrabAttack

There’s a bunch of tricks and hoops to jump through to get the sky-high stam sorc parse. In a real scenario if you haven’t maxed out your ultimate and your raid team doesn’t feel like waiting for you to go through step 2 below before the start of the fight, that’s too bad, you lose around 10-15kdps

1. Max out ultimate
2. Prebuff bound armaments, twighlight, crystal weapon, overload, barbed trap, maybe scalding rune if you run it
3. Run through 12 skills of your rotation, dealing gobs of overload damage, go through much more than 12 or so skills and step 4 doesn’t work, you lose a lot of dps
4. Drop the greater storm atronach and continue the parse. You have now successfully milked the most you can get from the full ultimate stack

It’s not like the 140k number directly relates to being the best in real gameplay, I haven’t come across any other build with so much preloaded stuff that won’t always fall into place in a real scenario, it’s just the best at getting a high dummy parse. Running the same build in trials filled with tons of adds may result in pretty low group contribution

chrisub17_ESO104

Ya parsing on trial dummies makes no sense from a how to test stuff correctly perspective. I get that it's the best we have but when I see parses from real content, those results just don't add up. The dummy is not telling you what you think it is. There are too many other variables like melee vs ranged and encounter specifics etc..

The best baseline would be unlimited sustain with no other buffs. You never start with a baseline of every option. That's far more complex to extrapolate to a point on the curve then starting at 0.

I want to see more content creators posting parses of real content. That is the only valid basis for asking for buffs or nerfs to a class. I'm sure it's what the designers look at mostly. Ie people making content trivial with a certain item set/skill. If it actually is under/over powered then it will be noticeable in content. Like measured in time to complete or parses of actual raids, etc..