Corrosive Armor needs a nerf.

axi

taugrim wrote: »

gamma71 wrote: »

The people dying to corrosive are bad period. I must play against a lot of good player because everytime I use it I get stunned or like most people who have eyes can see me turn green and run away for 12 seconds and kite. Now I do agree when oaken pre nerf the uptime on it was unfair but that's because zos never listen to any player on pts.

Look objectively at the mechanics.

DK has unblockable stun and 7m range all melee attacks (Elder Dragon passive) and the class melee spammables also snare the target (Warmth passive).

DK has amazing anti-kiting tools, best-in-class in the game because they're passives and you get them for free by simply using your skills.

Sorry but that is far from an objective look. You mention benefits of the Dk like there wasn't drawback that these benefits are created to counter.

Fist of all argument about unblockable stun is meaningless because almost every class atm have unblockable stun and actually DK's one is weak compared to some of the others. It's a short range, single target ,expensive ability that is also plagued with years long bugs like inability to use it against people who left mist form when You were targeting them. Fossilize seems strong only because due to its short ranage every time You get stunned it means You were not keeping Your distance from the DK that used it on You so he will follow up that stun with other attacks when other classes very often will mindlesly spam stuns on You sometimes granting You a free cc immunity.

As for the 2 meters of additional range on meele attacks it's kinda obvious why it was done. Not only DK's core offensive abilities are meele but DK also lacks any usefull mobility and gap closing tools. After 10 meters fight is over for a DK. He can at best spam Flames of Oblivion (which on it's own wont do much and after 15 meters that's gone too) or keep DoT pressure which after latest changes is laughable if You wont fully build for it (like master DW+way of Fire etc).Chain is the weakest gap closer in the game because of how slow and unreliable it is plus how weak its secondary effects are compared to other gap closers. Leap is an ultimate which You can use only once in a time usually to create a burst opportunity so very often You wont waste it as a gap closing tool. Range setups on a DK will always be inferior. You are almost forced to be a meele so it's obvious game compensates for that.

As for snare it's basically combined story of a unblockable stun and additional range on meele attacksa. Not only everyone have easy acces to snares since they are usually secondary effects on already potent and usefull abilities but on a DK snares are created to offset that meele type of playstyle without gap closer. On top of that almost everyone these days is using snare+immobilize immunity skill. In a 1v1 30% snare isnt really a big deal and when outnumbered You want to have snare+immobilize immunity active as much as You can.

StaticWave

People who says Corrosive Armor doesn't need to be nerfed because it's easy to avoid completely missed the actual problem.

The actual reason Corrosive Armor needs to be nerfed is because it provides too much utility for the cost. No current ultimate in the game with a similar cost can provide both offense and defense.

It doesn't really matter if you kite someone for 12s while he's in Corrosive Armor. If he's pure melee, then he may not be able to kill you while you are kiting, but you aren't killing him either. 12s is a lot of time for him to reset the fight and restore his resources while you're busy kiting. Better yet, if he's got some ranged abilities like most DKs, he's gonna spam them as you're kiting away and there's nothing you can do to stop him.

That's just the offensive aspect. The defensive part of the ultimate is why it's so strong. Good DKs don't even need to use their ultimate to kill you. Their regular offense is already enough pressure to keep you on your toes. Good DKs will often save their Corrosive to bait your full combo, then use it afterwards to prevent you from killing them. By that time you've already used up your ultimate and probably ran out of resources too. Meanwhile they've just got topped up from popping Corrosive and have 12s to burn you down and there's nothing you can do to stop them.

To fight a Corrosive DK, you need to have enough burst to 1-shot them before they can use their ultimate, or play exactly like them (DoT builds) to bypass their Corrosive's damage taken limiter.

The most reasonable nerf ZOS can give without making it unusable is by removing the defensive aspect of Corrosive so that players have to choose between pure offense (Corrosive) or pure defense (Magma Shell).

esogamer2021

I use this skill in PVP as it’s probably the only skill that can’t take down a meta tank , but in my opinion the skill that needs changing is the vampire mist form , there is no current active skill to counter this , Many are spamming this skill in PVP and they are becoming un killable trolls , it’s such a massive unbalanced skill in the game as you can’t counter it you can’t pull them out of it etc

Danse_Mayhem

This thing needs 2 fixes.

1st - Stop the ulti regen whilst corrosive / Magma is active. No other transformation ultimate works the same way, and this would fairly set the skill in line with the others. I’ve yet to see a compelling argument to keep corrosive armour the way it is, without screaming about Brokensoul. People can build for ultimate regen without this mythic - were doing so before it came out, and are still doing it after the nerf. It’s nothing to do with that ring.

2nd - Split the morphs. One defensive and one offensive. Magma feels balanced the way it is so I don’t feel that one needs to change, but corrosive should be a completely offensive ultimate. Keep the infinite pen, add in a bunch of spell/weapon damage if you must, but remove the survivability part of that morph.

Currently it’s a one stop skill for every situation that gives you god mode, and charges whilst it’s being used. I’m not even a DK main by a long shot, and can slap that on for a -very- easy time in pvp.

Urzigurumash

@StaticWave @Danse_Mayhem

Are your thoughts expressed here consistent since launch, since Corrosive has hardly changed since then?

axi

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@StaticWave @Danse_Mayhem

Are your thoughts expressed here consistent since launch, since Corrosive has hardly changed since then?

Funnily enough last time it was changed in 5.1.5 patch it was nerfed to no longer affect damage over time effects.

Urzigurumash

axi wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@StaticWave @Danse_Mayhem

Are your thoughts expressed here consistent since launch, since Corrosive has hardly changed since then?

Funnily enough last time it was changed in 5.1.5 patch it was nerfed to no longer affect damage over time effects.

Correct, presumably to match the change made to Bleeds at that patch, and we got a Dev comment for that change, copied below. This comment matches what I've said many times about Corrosive - few other Ults prohibit a player from being optimized both while the Ult is active and inactive - because you need Pen when it isn't active (as you needed it for non-Bleed damage), but Pen does nothing when it is active (as it did nothing for Bleed Damage).

I'm a longtime main DK. Class is OP right now. Making Corrosive a purely Penetrative morph and leaving Magma to be a purely Defensive morph does little to enhance the theme of the class - it would be just as good of a "Gank Ult" as a "Tank Ult" and DK is the Tank Class. Not to mention it doesn't even make sense in term of contrast between the Morphs unless the DK gives the whole team Penetration like Magma does Defense. That's possibly getting into PvE territory there - somewhere Corrosive has never had a place. I understand this is the balance struck between secondary effects of the 2h Ult, but that Ult has nothing to do with Class Theme, and Corrosive was long essential to the Poison Tank identity of StamDK.

To re-iterate past comments, Corrosive is, in itself, a Pressure Ult. It's only become OP because of its ability to enhance Whip and Flames of Oblivion, and because of the buffs to those two skills and the change to World in Ruin.

The Dev Comment about Bleeds losing their Maximum Penetration:

"Developer Comment: This change was done to reduce the volatility of effectiveness of these abilities in PvE and PvP. Ignoring mitigation was detrimental to this due to the high swings of character optimization with varying builds while always being static while fighting monsters, leaving many dead zones and problem spaces. We're aware of the concerns of high mitigation that is currently obtainable in the game, and we've targeted some other areas (such as Oblivion Damage) to offset the loss of these tools."

End quote, my overall point in all of this thread, to clarify, is that Corrosive should be a Poison Tank Pressure Ult.

StaticWave

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@StaticWave @Danse_Mayhem

Are your thoughts expressed here consistent since launch, since Corrosive has hardly changed since then?

Corrosive Amor used to be much stronger when it also gave DoTs full penetration. It's still very strong now, but no where near as broken.

I think what really makes Corrosive OP is the defensive aspect. The offensive aspect is fine. There's plenty of counter play to survive a DK with full pen such as kiting, block/roll dodging, or simply out healing if you're in the right build. But the defensive aspect of the ultimate hard counters 99% of burst builds and forces your opponent to play a certain way to have a chance at countering you.

I say have a chance because good DKs aren't just going to let you burst them or DoT them down. They have superior healing and the ability to block cast to prevent you from landing the majority of your burst. Good DKs I've fought block cast most of their abilities when they're going on the offense and it's incredibly frustrating to see half of your skills being blocked. If you managed to land most of your burst, a DK can just hit Corrosive and laugh at you.

If ZOS intended for Corrosive to be a pressure ultimate, then it needs to only perform that function - being an offensive ultimate. There's no reason for it to also provide one of the best defensive capability in the game.

StaticWave

And like many others have said, the ulti giving full penetration and amazing defense at only 200 ulti points is why ulti regen builds without Oakensoul still do very well. Sure it'll have less up time without oakensoul, but it's still going to have an amazing uptime. Bloodspawn + Daedric Trickery + 5 piece damage set is a staple build that also provides Major Heroism even if randomized. There are other dedicated ulti regen builds that can give even better uptime.

The point I'm making is this single ultimate allows players to literally build around it and make their character as tanky as possible while also having full penetration for decent damage. No current ultimate can do that.

Sergykid

in high mmr bgs u will prefer to fight three dks with corrosive than leap.
this is a player skill issue, just like it was with heavy attacks

Urzigurumash

StaticWave wrote: »

The point I'm making is this single ultimate allows players to literally build around it and make their character as tanky as possible while also having full penetration for decent damage. No current ultimate can do that.

The OP Defense is crucial. Fundamentally, it's the Tank Ult for the Tank Class.

"DK is too tanky"

"NB has too much burst"

"Templar has too much healing"

Yes the blockcastability in particular of Whip versus the cast time of Dizzy Swing is what's overpowered Corrosive more than anything. On that subject, the cast time given to Leap to provide more counterplay also indirectly buffed Corrosive, by way of reducing the necessity of running Sharpened Maul / Mace frontbar for maximal Leaps - since Leap has lost some effectiveness over the years and become much less popular.

Yes, new sources of Ult Gen have also overpowered the Ult and the increased uptime reduces the impact of the "Max Pen inefficiency problem".

Yes the Ult is OP in the current meta. Adjust the numbers or change the way it works altogether, sure - but removing any defensive component from the traditional backbar Ult for StamDK is injurious to the theme of the class.

Balance shouldn't mean the same shade of grey - but rather equal vibrancy.

YandereGirlfriend

Creating anything that maxes out both offense and defense is and always will be poor design.

As others have said before, separate the functionality: Corrosive for offense/PvP (make it buff DoTs again) and Magma for defense/PvE tanking (and for the love of Talos increase the number of shielded allies from 6 to 12 so that it can actually compete with Barrier in a group setting).

It's really not a difficult solution.

StaticWave

Sergykid wrote: »

in high mmr bgs u will prefer to fight three dks with corrosive than leap.
this is a player skill issue, just like it was with heavy attacks

Uh no. Fighting 3 DKs with Leap is like fighting any other ult dump. One well timed block will counter 3 of them. In fact, most high MMR DKs I've played against never used Leap and always used Corrosive.

This is definitely not a player skill issue, don't try to divert the issue lol.

StaticWave

Urzigurumash wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

The point I'm making is this single ultimate allows players to literally build around it and make their character as tanky as possible while also having full penetration for decent damage. No current ultimate can do that.

The OP Defense is crucial. Fundamentally, it's the Tank Ult for the Tank Class.

"DK is too tanky"

"NB has too much burst"

"Templar has too much healing"

Yes the blockcastability in particular of Whip versus the cast time of Dizzy Swing is what's overpowered Corrosive more than anything. On that subject, the cast time given to Leap to provide more counterplay also indirectly buffed Corrosive, by way of reducing the necessity of running Sharpened Maul / Mace frontbar for maximal Leaps - since Leap has lost some effectiveness over the years and become much less popular.

Yes, new sources of Ult Gen have also overpowered the Ult and the increased uptime reduces the impact of the "Max Pen inefficiency problem".

Yes the Ult is OP in the current meta. Adjust the numbers or change the way it works altogether, sure - but removing any defensive component from the traditional backbar Ult for StamDK is injurious to the theme of the class.

Balance shouldn't mean the same shade of grey - but rather equal vibrancy.

Magma Shell is also a tank ult but it doesn't have 100% Pen. Why don't people use Magma Shell instead of Corrosive? Yea because it gives 100% pen AND 3% dmg taken limiter. Corrosive is literally a have-it-all ult. You can't possibly defend this broken ability lol.

Remove the 3% damage taken limiter so people have to choose between a tank ult or an offensive ult.

Urzigurumash

StaticWave wrote: »

Remove the 3% damage taken limiter so people have to choose between a tank ult or an offensive ult.

It's a bad solution, find me somebody with years of experience on StamDK who thinks it makes sense. I said plenty of times in my posts the class is OP and the skill could be adjusted, just not in the simplistic and banally dichotomous way repeated in this thread. It's ignorant to the theme of the class. It would be no better with melee than with Bow.

Sergykid

StaticWave wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

in high mmr bgs u will prefer to fight three dks with corrosive than leap.
this is a player skill issue, just like it was with heavy attacks

Uh no. Fighting 3 DKs with Leap is like fighting any other ult dump. One well timed block will counter 3 of them. In fact, most high MMR DKs I've played against never used Leap and always used Corrosive.

This is definitely not a player skill issue, don't try to divert the issue lol.

once dk pop corrosive u can just run few meters away behind a pillar for a few seconds to refresh buffs and prepare hots like u would normally do anyway. Best the dk can do is catch u offguard with a fossilize whip but that's about all.
still weaker than a gap closer aoe stun high damaging cheap plus absorb shield ult.

Also in corrosive u can still take decent damage cuz dots or light attacks would have taken around 3% of ur hp anyway. I would even use the board ult reflect morph for defense rather than corrosive.

with leap u can switch the pressure valve and let hots heal while u have the absorb shield. Getting ur opponent on defense and knockbacked is better defense option than getting ur pen up and reducing damage taken a bit.

dunno what high mmr bg dks u fight but the good ones don't use corossive. Yes it's good and maybe better in specific scenarios but not better generally. I have videos with high rank dks than use leap instead

StaticWave

Urzigurumash wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Remove the 3% damage taken limiter so people have to choose between a tank ult or an offensive ult.

It's a bad solution, find me somebody with years of experience on StamDK who thinks it makes sense. I said plenty of times in my posts the class is OP and the skill could be adjusted, just not in the simplistic and banally dichotomous way repeated in this thread. It's ignorant to the theme of the class. It would be no better with melee than with Bow.

It's a bad solution because you don't want it nerfed. There's no reason to use Leap or Magma Shell morph because Corrosive is just that much better.

Why don't you use Magma Shell then since you want the defensive aspect so much? Clearly you don't want to because you'd be giving up 12s of full penetration. But you don't want the defensive aspect to be removed either because according to you, it's a "tank ult for the tank class". A tank ult is Magma Shell. Corrosive is more than just a tank ult. It's also a damage ult. Give me one ulti in the game at 200 ulti cost that can perform as effectively as Corrosive Armor.

StaticWave

Sergykid wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

in high mmr bgs u will prefer to fight three dks with corrosive than leap.
this is a player skill issue, just like it was with heavy attacks

Uh no. Fighting 3 DKs with Leap is like fighting any other ult dump. One well timed block will counter 3 of them. In fact, most high MMR DKs I've played against never used Leap and always used Corrosive.

This is definitely not a player skill issue, don't try to divert the issue lol.

once dk pop corrosive u can just run few meters away behind a pillar for a few seconds to refresh buffs and prepare hots like u would normally do anyway. Best the dk can do is catch u offguard with a fossilize whip but that's about all.
still weaker than a gap closer aoe stun high damaging cheap plus absorb shield ult.

Also in corrosive u can still take decent damage cuz dots or light attacks would have taken around 3% of ur hp anyway. I would even use the board ult reflect morph for defense rather than corrosive.

with leap u can switch the pressure valve and let hots heal while u have the absorb shield. Getting ur opponent on defense and knockbacked is better defense option than getting ur pen up and reducing damage taken a bit.

dunno what high mmr bg dks u fight but the good ones don't use corossive. Yes it's good and maybe better in specific scenarios but not better generally. I have videos with high rank dks than use leap instead

Not when there are 3 of them. I've fought a 4 man DK team several times in high MMR BGs on PC NA and it's a lot easier to fight them if they don't have Corrosive up. It's still going to be really difficult because of DKs being DKs, but at least there's a better chance of bursting them down.

Ironically the only true way to counter Corrosive DKs is by playing a DoT team, which is what most organized BG teams are doing. It's still going to hard counter a burst comp completely though.

TechMaybeHic

DK hitting corrosive and 2 hand brawler weapon, while a Necro does smash with dark convergence is the LOLs on many right now. You can do it with just DK as well by having it slot DC and using eruption, but the big thing is gathering a lot of targets in 1 spot for unmitigated brawler scaled per target

Also can get a Nova in there for the DK to synergize while using corrosive as it impacts that as well lols

Urzigurumash

StaticWave wrote: »

Why don't you use Magma Shell then since you want the defensive aspect so much?

Because PvP StamDK has been using Corrosive instead of Magma Shell for 9 years

StaticWave wrote: »

Clearly you don't want to because you'd be giving up 12s of full penetration.

I think multiple times in this thread I said the Max Pen was inherently inefficient and could stand to be replaced with some other damage buff/debuff. Pick one out of a hat, it could be anything.

StaticWave wrote: »

Give me one ulti in the game at 200 ulti cost that can perform as effectively as Corrosive Armor.

I said at least once in this thread that raising its cost was an appropriate adjustment in light of increased sources of Ult Gen.

StaticWave wrote: »

Corrosive is more than just a tank ult. It's also a damage ult.

I don't need to list every Ult which has a defensive and offensive component - it's like 1 out of 3.

With Sharpened + Maul + Major & Minor Breach, you get 15k Pen out of Corrosive against 33k Armor. Vamp Ult gives you 10k Stam and equivalent defense. Maybe a little better defense, but you know I'm not quite sure how the two compare defensively because I've only run Vamp Ult on other classes - because on DK I run Corrosive. I know Vamp Ult doesn't give you quite as much defense as Goliath, I've used both on Necro, but that Stam scaling (seems to) give more damage than Ravaging if you're not using a build which goes well with Pummeling.

Find me somebody who has played StamDK for a long time who agrees this is a good idea. I understand completely why a StamSorc main doesn't feel much affinity for the idea of "traditional class Ults".

Non-mains recommending this particular boring, unimaginative change to Corrosive are recommending spelling changes to a language they don't speak.

Urzigurumash

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

DK hitting corrosive and 2 hand brawler weapon

Before people assume I'm just another main defending a broken aspect of their class that they enjoy exploiting - I was Corrosive Titanic Cleaving for years and years when nobody else was because nobody played StamDK. I've retired from DK to pursue 5 stars on other classes since DK became the FotM. I was on FrostDen for a minute but now that's the FotM.

None of my arguments are about "me", I'm a console pleb and a scrub, they're about preserving the theme of the class, particularly, more than anything:

DK must be compelled to remain in melee range combat and fight until the end. Not to evade, and not to hit from range. Making Corrosive a purely offensive morph would do nothing to separate this Ult in terms of Tank vs Kite builds, that's the problem. Purely an offensive buff is not the thematic or mechanical role of Corrosive Armor.

Depriving Corrosive of its defensive component, even if the offensive was revised to work only in Melee Range, could possibly compel the DK to wait for the extra 60 Ult or whatever for Vamp Ult. Yes there is a traditional association between MagDK and Vamp Ult, mostly long lost, but I wouldn't be surprised if a StamDK has yet to ever once slot Vamp Ult. Why would they have? Corrosive is one of the best Ults.

We already gave up Molten Armaments because of its broken interaction with Corrosive post-Hybridization. There were only ever very niche reasons to run this over Rally or Degen - but now there are none. Anything done which might move DKs off Corrosive and onto Vamp Ult is a bad idea.

I'm not a meta gamer, I'm a RP PvPer, I say that without shame. Tamriel isn't Tamriel because of its cold, mathematically precise spreadsheet balancing. Tamriel isn't Tamriel because of Newtonian Gravitation and every action having an equal and opposite reaction.

You want this PvP to thrive, to attract new players and to keep current players? Respect the theme, respect the RP, don't smash 9 year traditions into nothing.

StaticWave

Urzigurumash wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Why don't you use Magma Shell then since you want the defensive aspect so much?

Because PvP StamDK has been using Corrosive instead of Magma Shell for 9 years

StaticWave wrote: »

Clearly you don't want to because you'd be giving up 12s of full penetration.

I think multiple times in this thread I said the Max Pen was inherently inefficient and could stand to be replaced with some other damage buff/debuff. Pick one out of a hat, it could be anything.

StaticWave wrote: »

Give me one ulti in the game at 200 ulti cost that can perform as effectively as Corrosive Armor.

I said at least once in this thread that raising its cost was an appropriate adjustment in light of increased sources of Ult Gen.

StaticWave wrote: »

Corrosive is more than just a tank ult. It's also a damage ult.

I don't need to list every Ult which has a defensive and offensive component - it's like 1 out of 3.

With Sharpened + Maul + Major & Minor Breach, you get 15k Pen out of Corrosive against 33k Armor. Vamp Ult gives you 10k Stam and equivalent defense. Maybe a little better defense, but you know I'm not quite sure how the two compare defensively because I've only run Vamp Ult on other classes - because on DK I run Corrosive. I know Vamp Ult doesn't give you quite as much defense as Goliath, I've used both on Necro, but that Stam scaling (seems to) give more damage than Ravaging if you're not using a build which goes well with Pummeling.

Find me somebody who has played StamDK for a long time who agrees this is a good idea. I understand completely why a StamSorc main doesn't feel much affinity for the idea of "traditional class Ults".

Non-mains recommending this particular boring, unimaginative change to Corrosive are recommending spelling changes to a language they don't speak.

And PvP StamDK has been using Corrosive because Magma Shell is inferior. PvP MagDK started using Corrosive after hybridization because Magma Shell is inferior. It's pretty obvious why a player would pick Corrosive over Magma Shell when looking at either morphs.

If you think max pen is inefficient, then why don't you use Magma Shell then? It also provides a 3% damage taken limiter without the pen. We all know you use Corrosive because despite what you say, 100% pen is extremely strong for an ult. Onslaught is also 100% pen but requires a target and only lasts 5s AND doesn't give a 3% damage taken limiter.

Raising its cost is a fair change, but it would need to be 300 ulti.

You need to list every ult with a defensive and offensive component as EFFICIENT as Corrosive for the same cost. I don't see a single ulti at 200 ultimate with that much efficiency. Spell Wall is ~110 ulti points but it only lasts 6s, only reflects projectiles, and doesn't give you any offensive buffs. Vamp Ult is almost 300 ulti points and doesn't build up ultimate points while in Vamp form. Goliath is in a similar boat. I'm pretty sure there are less than 5 ultimates in the game with an offensive and defensive component, and none of them are as good as Corrosive.

Most stamDKs will never agree because let's be honest, it's a crutch. I would much rather fight a Leap DK than some Corrosive DK who builds as tanky as possible and wins the fight by out-tanking you while using their superior DoTs to wear you down. I've played that playstyle enough to know how boring and easy it is. The moment I misplay and take a full burst I just pop Corrosive, instantly gains 5k HP, then ignore whatever execute they're throwing at me and turn the fight around. It's literally a crutch.

Jabbs_Giggity

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Simple solution to impact all builds is make it so that an ultimate has a 1 minute cool down. Meaning if it is a burst type Ultimate it has exactly 1 minute after it is used. If it provides a buff for say 20 seconds like dawnbreaker, once the dawnbreaker buff ends the 1 minute timer starts. This would make it easier to deal with any player using the Oakensoul ring.

No. Not one person, except newer players who couldn't handle combos, wanted ultimate cast times. It's been discussed over and over and cooldowns is what separates combat in ESO from other MMOs.
Cooldowns on any skill, let alone ultimates, would just further cause more mass exodus of end game players.

Urzigurumash

StaticWave wrote: »

And PvP StamDK has been using Corrosive because Magma Shell is inferior. PvP MagDK started using Corrosive after hybridization because Magma Shell is inferior. It's pretty obvious why a player would pick Corrosive over Magma Shell when looking at either morphs.

PvP StamDK uses Corrosive over Magma for the same reason cars use roads over canals. Canals are for boats. If Corrosive is so superior to Magma why don't PvE tanks use it? Different things made for different purposes. Corrosive was made for PvP StamDK.

StaticWave wrote: »

If you think max pen is inefficient, then why don't you use Magma Shell then? It also provides a 3% damage taken limiter without the pen. We all know you use Corrosive because despite what you say, 100% pen is extremely strong for an ult. Onslaught is also 100% pen but requires a target and only lasts 5s AND doesn't give a 3% damage taken limiter.

I never said it isn't strong. I've said multiple times it's the best Ult in the game - and always was, even for all the years StamDK was consistently ranked by the putatively best players as the worst class, even during the years some of the most popular streamers used SnB Ult over Corrosive. Read the Dev's comment about old Bleeds' inefficiencies, as they say "dead spots and problem spaces". You can't maximize your damage with Corrosive's buff without reducing it in an inefficient way in the absence of Corrosive's buff. I.e., without Corrosive up, Sharpened Mauls almost always do more damage than Nirnhoned Swords - but they do nothing with Corrosive up. Point to my comment in this thread where I say this Penetration should remain untouched.

Yes the reward for the risk of Onslaught isn't there, nor for Berserker Strike, because you don't get the buffs if you whiff and this must be the most whiffable Ult in the game. Hence nobody really uses these. Onslaught should go back to its original form, as I said earlier in this thread. This Ult is a terrible model for how to balance the morphs of Magma Armor.

StaticWave wrote: »

Raising its cost is a fair change, but it would need to be 300 ulti.

You need to list every ult with a defensive and offensive component as EFFICIENT as Corrosive for the same cost. I don't see a single ulti at 200 ultimate with that much efficiency. Spell Wall is ~110 ulti points but it only lasts 6s, only reflects projectiles, and doesn't give you any offensive buffs. Vamp Ult is almost 300 ulti points and doesn't build up ultimate points while in Vamp form. Goliath is in a similar boat. I'm pretty sure there are less than 5 ultimates in the game with an offensive and defensive component, and none of them are as good as Corrosive.

The difference between Corrosive and Vamp Ult at Stage 3 is 52 Ult, 216 and 268 respectively. There's an argument to be made about Ult Gen during Corrosive but really this is spreadsheet balancing and you're glossing over my general point. The Ult should recommend the Facetank playstyle. Theme should inform mechanics, mechanics should enforce theme. This is a bulwark against homogenization. If the Ult just gave you Max Pen and nothing else then how is it better for Facetanking than Snipe Spamming?

If we count any damage plus any mitigation, CC immunity, defensive debuff (i.e. Maim on Nova) or Heal, we're at way more than 5, it's like 1 out of 3 Ults. None of these "mixed Offense / Defense Ults" are as good or as efficient as Corrosive - that's true.

Name me another mobility tool as efficient as Streak. Name me another purge as efficient as Extended Ritual. What's with NBs hitting one button to cloak? The rest of us have to pop a short duration pot or sprint for 3 seconds.

But again, you seem to miss my point? None of my posts are about how the numbers and particular effects of Corrosive are immaculate and must remain exactly as they are. My posts are all about how Corrosive should maintain its thematic and mechanical role as an Ult for dealing damage while Facetanking.

StaticWave wrote: »

It's literally a crutch.

Correct, like Streak, Cloak, Ritual, Resistant Flesh, Arctic Blast, etc., etc., the most powerful defensive tools in a class kit are all "crutches".

As I said 6 months ago in my comments on the first page of this thread, my concern is with "how to keep Corrosive aligned with its original purpose".

You don't think that's a good idea?

Urzigurumash

I tend to think you're viewing this too much as a StamSorc. Flexible, adaptable to a broad array of weaponry and playstyles (and not defined since launch by a particular Class Ult). That's not StamDK, StamDK is supposed to a Melee Warrior only, heavy on defense, low on mobility - i.e., a Knight. (and also defined since launch by a particular Class Ult)

OBJnoob

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Find me somebody who has played StamDK for a long time who agrees this is a good idea. I understand completely why a StamSorc main doesn't feel much affinity for the idea of "traditional class Ults".

Non-mains recommending this particular boring, unimaginative change to Corrosive are recommending spelling changes to a language they don't speak.

I hate to do this to you Urzi cuz you're an awesome rep for the DK community... But I'm a long time stamdk and I think corrosive needs to be nerfed. Specifically the defensive side of it.

My first toon ever was a stamdk, long before they were any good, and I probably used some of your forum posts, 5 years ago, to help me. Then there was it's peak, roughly 3 years ago, I was wearing bloodspawn ancient dragon guard and bone pirates in ravenwatch and I was... Pfff... Those were the days. Dizzy swing, DLeap, executioner for days. For. DAYS.

And you're in one of my guilds... You've seen me on my stamdk more recently, 1 year ago, and hopefully you can at least vouch that I do well.

But here's the thing... Stamdk isn't a thing anymore. I mean you can play it for funsies, or for nostalgia, but it just isn't very good. And I understand you are saying "exactly noob, stamdk isn't very good, you can't take our best ulti away from us!" But the game isn't going to revert the hybridization changes. It just isn't. So anything you give a classes worst spec is also going to be used by the classes best spec.

Corrosive DKs tanking hoards of people AND killing them has gone on long enough. The functionality of it paired with a solid direct damage AoE spammable (FoO,) and a built up whip is just too much. And yes, you can easily just run away from them for a while, which is why most people only want to nerf the defensive side of it. Because whether it's 'good' or not, the other morph is clearly the defensive version. It is and has always been very out of place for corrosive to offer both in such ridiculously high quantity.

Now I'm not actually saying I think magdks need to be nerfed (much.) My warden will stalemate with a Dk in a duel. Nbs are on the same level also. Other classes need to be bumped up slightly. But removing the insane mitigation from corrosive AND REPLACING it with extra offense is what needs to happen. Or just reduce the cost.

Urzigurumash

Well thank you Noob I appreciate that and I take no offense, in fact I must apologize to you also for having mostly departed RW to link up with old friends in GH.

Yes I must hear it from other experienced StamDKs to shut up. Especially triggering to hear it from a StamSorc main because in the early days there was only one thing that meaningfully differentiated StamDK from both StamSorc and MagDK: Corrosive Armor. It's not just about being the best StamDK Ult, but about being the StamDK Ult.

But if I'm wrong I'm wrong, my posts in this thread might be the worst ratio of Agrees to Words in the history of this forum. If I'm the only commenter stuck on this idea that Corrosive must be a defensive Ult as it has been for the last 9 years then that's what it is. To keep my bolded analogy there I'm sure in Late Medieval Britain there were a few orthographers stuck on the use of Þ long after the rest had decided TH was better.

It seems I made this forum account only in 2019. As I recall I made it to be the one of the few that said that Orc needed to keep its Max HP Bonus during that big racial revision at the time to differentiate it (along with Nord) as the "Stam Tank" races, opposed to the "Stam DD" races of Redguard and Bosmer. That's the only reason I came here, and everybody knows that's quite in line with past TES games, but, speaking in TES terms, I stuck around because I noticed the PvP discourse on this forum was mostly a bunch of Mages and Thieves talking about how naughty Warriors are for wearing Heavy Armor and using Block.

All of my numerous rambling posts on this forum, rather than being anything which should be advice to other StamDKs - because my perspective is steeped in thematic nostalgia as you say rather than actual competitiveness - are predicated on three mantras:

DKs are Tanks
Orcs are Tanks
Tanks wear Heavy Armor

I see no difference in my perspective that it's the new World in Ruin which has overpowered ye olde Corrosive and the NB main perspective that it's the new Concealed Weapon buff which has overpowered Merciless Resolve. It seems to me many players want the differences in classes to be like the difference between Mozzarella and Provolone, I prefer them to be more like Parmesan and Limburger.

Corrosive has always been one of the sharpest flavors of cheese available to the Warrior in this game, absolutely. For those few years where StamDen and StamCro vastly outperformed StamDK in PvP, StamDK had one very specific thing going for it that the others couldn't match: Corrosive + Titanic Cleave.

Whether making Corrosive a purely penetrative morph means this association is retained, or that this Ult now becomes just as good with the Vat Bow (again note that new World in Ruin..), of course I don't really know, I guess we will see if this recommended change ever happens.

I watched Malcolm's recent Tier List video, he said StamDK remains the most definitive Stam class. But his included clip is a MagDK, so I'm not sure if he's particularly referring to Corrosive Cleave or not, if he's talking about a DK without Whip / FoO or not. In terms of solo single target focused builds, I don't think I've seen a competitive non-Whip DK in a long time.

OBJnoob

It's okay man I've been absent from RW for a while also. It's still my favorite way to play and I don't even mind how dead the campaign normally is just how lopsided it was there for a while.

And while my sense of time is probably off by a year on some things, it is still true that you were one of my earliest influences on these forums. Your posts are always well articulated and full of historic ESO knowledge.

But honestly that's probably why we disagree on this. I ignore most aspects of the game... Never do quests, never read books. I gotta be honest I don't always (beyond an academic curiosity,) care what was. I just want balance lol.

I don't mind when there's a lot of animations on my screen and I don't notice the green dk and I die. I do mind that same ability allowing DKs to wade through a sea of damage, especially when the other morph of the same thing is for defense. Honestly corrosive needs nerfed for magma shells sake. Cuz nobody uses it!

I say... Buff magma shell. I don't know much about it honestly... Give it a bigger shield, I dunno just buff it. Then (at the same time,) remove the mitigation from corrosive aaand... Either strengthen the dot x3 or make it apply minor defile to everyone the dot touches. I think that'd be pretty cool.

Urzigurumash

Thank you very much Noob, that's very nice of you to say, good to hear somebody bothered to wade through my many walls of text! I enjoy a lore-driven, RP-friendly, theme-focused approach to PvP Balance, because that's a huge part of what makes ESO PvP what it is: there is only one true Ruby Throne.

And there is only One True Emp and if you're Xbox NA AD you know who that is. (may his name remain here ineffable)

Maybe buffing Magma Shell would satisfy me, but again much of my point here is simply that Corrosive should retain its original purpose out of tradition. I don't have any trouble with Corrosive DKs but I've mostly been playing FrostDen for a while, especially with the change to Arctic Blast and Falcon's Swiftness of course I have no trouble getting away from them. I find DK and Warden to be fairly close in power overall, bit of an edge to DK most of the time but more on the damage end than survivability. As for some buff to Corrosive's AoE, yes I'm all for it, this is what I suggested earlier in this thread to replace the Pen. More like Northern Storm, less like Onslaught, sharing some thematic space with Leeching Plate and Hand of Mephala.

Anyhow speaking of my many walls of text, the overpowering of Corrosive via Whip, comparisons between StamDK and StamSorc, and the overthrow of long-standing traditions, I decided to read through some old "Stam Whip" threads and see if anybody talked about how this might overpower Corrosive. I haven't seen that mentioned but in one thread "Stamdk spammable" from only a year ago I saw an interesting comment of mine:

"I've been resistant to this idea of a StamWhip for years, despite hearing so much of it, having an affinity for our shared heritage with StamSorc as the original D Swingers. But, years of squaring up with a Warden or a Necro and seeing who can out D Swing the other had me warming up to this idea - but seeing the success of StamSorc with their new spammable made it quite clear - a reliable way a basegame Stam class can stay relevant in PvP is by having an instant spammable capable of being used in some sort of offensive scheme that does more damage than what can be achieved with non-class skills. Even if Crystal Weapon is best used with Crushing Weapon, even though that's a Delayed Burst scheme, a StamSorc has more motivation to slot Crushing Weapon than Warden or Necro, and less dependence on D Swing than a Warden or Necro."

That's interesting also in light of changes to Crystal Weapon since StamSorc is probably mostly outperformed right now by DK and Warden.

But there was another line of mine in that thread which does well to summarize my points in this thread, and pretty much all my DK rambles:

"Accept that this capacity to deal damage in the form of a tank is our unfair edge and don't advocate for further homogenization."

OBJnoob

Hmm. I would agree that doing decent damage while being tanky is a good identity for DK. The problem though is that when you made that statement DKs weren't so insanely good at damage. They were pressure builds. Now they are very good at burst... Which is the meta... And they are also good at eating burst. And they used to lack mobility... But now nobody lacks mobility.

And so I believe you are right... Homogenization has gone too far.

You know what? I shouldn't even bring this up because this might make me cry... Another problem with corrosive is the DKs passive that returns resources. Now this passive is great and unique and as big a part of DK identity to me as corrosive is to you. But it's part of the problem. Because, if you think about it, Corrosive doesn't just provide full penetration and near invincibility. It also completely fills all 3 resources.