Saint Pelin deck need a serious nerf

Foxtrot39

The card used to counter Armory, Rally, Siege weapon volley tend to cost more than those

Those cards alone give you nearly 25% progress towards victory each time you play them while you have to spam the mentor to make sure your taunt cards are always in your next hand to counter them if you managed to even get one in the first place

Either up the cost of armory to 8 and rally to 10 or divide the cards strength into a 2-3 combo requirement

Rouz

I think two things need to happen. Either their power needs to get nerfed, or their power stays the same and the utility of their cards should be removed. Rally shouldn't give a deck draw with the amount of power it generates. Armory shouldn't be giving gold. Reinforcements shouldn't be giving gold. Portuilis or however you spell it is probably the only one I think is find. Like you said, the amount of power they generate it isn't "proper" for them to also have that utility.

I also wouldn't mind that kind of power generation if agents were more prevalent or cheaper. I can see that power generation being useful/needed if there are a lot of agents on the field. But most games I play there's rarely more than 2 agents down at once. But right now their power generation + cost + gold/utility is too high. I'd even say that raven needs a slight adjustment too. Mainly because like Pelin once you get their superiority...that's game and there's nothing you can do. Like earlier today I got two rallies and an armoy in a match. I got so lucky. There was a rally on the board at start and I went for the raven cards to see if I could combo gold before my opponent upgraded their coin cards to 2 to grab the rally. I beat my opponent by one turn and got the rally. Next time it was my turn my opponent pulled a card out of the tavern and it was replaced by an armory. So I got the armory. Same thing next time my opponent pulled and it got replaced by yet another rally. And I was able to get that one. The game last 8 minutes. Final score was 20-41 (opponent used hlaalu on the last round. Before that they were only at 14). Quickest game I've ever seen.

Lysette

Rouz wrote: »

I think two things need to happen. Either their power needs to get nerfed, or their power stays the same and the utility of their cards should be removed. Rally shouldn't give a deck draw with the amount of power it generates. Armory shouldn't be giving gold. Reinforcements shouldn't be giving gold. Portuilis or however you spell it is probably the only one I think is find. Like you said, the amount of power they generate it isn't "proper" for them to also have that utility.

I also wouldn't mind that kind of power generation if agents were more prevalent or cheaper. I can see that power generation being useful/needed if there are a lot of agents on the field. But most games I play there's rarely more than 2 agents down at once. But right now their power generation + cost + gold/utility is too high. I'd even say that raven needs a slight adjustment too. Mainly because like Pelin once you get their superiority...that's game and there's nothing you can do. Like earlier today I got two rallies and an armoy in a match. I got so lucky. There was a rally on the board at start and I went for the raven cards to see if I could combo gold before my opponent upgraded their coin cards to 2 to grab the rally. I beat my opponent by one turn and got the rally. Next time it was my turn my opponent pulled a card out of the tavern and it was replaced by an armory. So I got the armory. Same thing next time my opponent pulled and it got replaced by yet another rally. And I was able to get that one. The game last 8 minutes. Final score was 20-41 (opponent used hlaalu on the last round. Before that they were only at 14). Quickest game I've ever seen.

Novice NPC are restricted to just use Hlaalu - so even if they could win with the Duke, they will try to gain as much power as they can and buy a card with value 10 - if it is available - and then drop it on Hlaalu - they won't use the Duke, even if that would make them more power in the end. Once you reach rank 4 and play against proficient NPC, honeymoon is over, so to speak, and they will use all patrons and bring as well other decks into play. Those NPC will as well very rarely let the good cards in the tavern taking the 2nd or 3rd best instead - the result of that is often, that your chances to play Pelin is low. Now given that they are not expert NPCs, I guess they are still holding back with the really nasty counters to your setup.

BTW if you click on the tavern draw stack, you can examine which cards are still in that stack.

As far as agents go - I normally use them just once and discard them at the end of the turn with Hlaalu, gaining direct prestige. Due to that novice NPC do not play with full strength, they very rarely attack your agents - but why would a real player let you have this agent fot long, if he can just kill it for 4 coins?- Gold is not in low supply in the middle of the game, you won't keep that agent in a real competitive situation. That is why I convert them into prestige once I have used them at the end of a turn - they are costly, yes, but a good source of prestige, without having to go through the power to prestige conversion.

Sarannah

The game should NOT receive any changes. This would be extremely confusing to those still learning the game, including me, and would harm the integrity of the game.

Also: There need to be some straightforward cards like that, so players not familiar with the game can force an outcome if they are lucky with those cards.

PS: The only thing that needs to change is ZOS giving patrons a fixed position on the board. Having to search the right one every game is confusing, timewasting, and not fun. There are only 8 patrons, so this should not be too hard to do.

Lysette

I think as well, that the game should stay just as it is. If we start the "balancing" crap here as well, I will give up on playing, not learning the game over and over and over again. not going to happen.

TheForFeeF

Whilst the RNG can suck and your opponent getting a Rally or Armory early game can really suck. It is so easy to counter. For example, the Khajiit deck can take Prestige away, and the Psijic Patron can get rid of their Agents.

Lysette

Hlaalu/celarius works for me, with or without Pelin in the mix. Red Eagle has some pretty interesting cards as well, which gain power whilst at the same time can thin out your deck.

So I could imagine that Hlaalu/Eagle could as well be a good combination - unfortunately I have none of the lower 4 decks, but I got lucky with my opponent choosing Celarius and Eagle twice - so I could add Hlaalu and the Duke to the mix, playing a mix of all 4 of them - that was actually quite strong, because I could thin out my deck quickly and used just 2 celarius cards, one to modify the tavern and the other one to make an extra draw worthwhile (via the eagle patron favor).

Those 4 make for a very short match, because Eagle creates a lot of power, Hlaalu can convert high value cards to prestige and the Duke coin to power - both matches were over in less than 10 minutes. I need that Eagle deck,, that's for sure.

kmfdm

This is too early to make such huge claims. Sure, for most people, rushing strategy (Pelin) is the most viable one - as in every card game, thats the easiest to pick up - but there is so much more going on. The meta will shift away from Pelin and Duke very soon. Some minor tweaks to a few cards may come later on, but there is nothing imbalanced that would require immediate update.

Lysette

All decks have a few very powerful cards - it is not just Pelin - take the Eagle deck - the only cards which stay in your deck are War Song (the default one you have) and midnight raid - in combination these two generate 7 power, and if you keep your deck small or have quite a few duke cards in it, you play this nearly every turn - much stronger than Pelin. And the other eagle cards are mainly contract actions or contract agents which help to keep your deck small whilst providing power as well - eagle is an extremely powerful deck as well.

Now when i think of it in more detail, Eagle/Duke is a murderous combination - needs a bit of a build up (and a bit of luck to get midnight raid), but it will generate lots of power in every turn after a while. But Hlaalu should be in the mix or it is not easy to construct that deck.

Heartrage

@Lysette
Eagle duke with one or two psijiic is ridiculous, you can play your entire deck every turn and combo like crazy. I think i made over 50 power in a turn with it.

Foxtrot39

TheForFeeF wrote: »

Whilst the RNG can suck and your opponent getting a Rally or Armory early game can really suck. It is so easy to counter. For example, the Khajiit deck can take Prestige away, and the Psijic Patron can get rid of their Agents.

small problem is rally and armory are not agent, thats the upfront gain for playing theml only Celrius is pointless against those just like any other card

Foxtrot39

Also had multiple matches where people just quit the second I grabed rally or armory and I lost every single game where they grabed it because anything else require a buildup (Crow needs you to have plenty of card to combo at least), tells you a lot how OP those two cards are

You look at their counter :

the banner card cost 9 and has 5 hp

Bangkorai sentinelle has a cost of 7 and has 4 HP

The knight commander upgrade got 5 HP but regen 2 per combo and cost 9

Rally cost 7 and grant 6 power and armory cost 5 with 5 power

Any of the counter card gets destroyed by those, they come way too late in the tavern and are too expensive when you need them to be of any use

After that if you can't get 2 power at every turn to recall them you loose by default and then you loose both counter card easely per turn with how easely pelin can snowball and the fact agent get smoked with celarius mentor but you can only guarantee only one back for your next turn

Lysette

Heartrage wrote: »

@Lysette
Eagle duke with one or two psijiic is ridiculous, you can play your entire deck every turn and combo like crazy. I think i made over 50 power in a turn with it.

yeah I saw this myself - when I had a chance to play with Eagle/duke and a bit of Hlaalu - that you gain power and can shape your deck at the same time, makes eagle ridiculously strong. Psijic is just required, to manipulate the tavern, well and it helps at start as well to move stuff around in the deck - but once the own deck is small enough, you play the same cards ovver and over again - incredibly strong.

Lysette

Well, I'm not scared by Pelin - I won quite often against it. But I'm not trying to counter it, because Pelin does not have a huge gain with combos - Pelin is like a tank, strong but slow - it can be beaten by faster methods to gain prestige, often just towards the end, with suddenly generating like 30+ prestige in a single turn, with combo power and the Duke. So yeah, bring it on, Pelin is not the strongest, it can be beaten. Especially because once I have the combo power, I can do that in the next turn again - while pelin is still a slow tank.

I want to say with it, Pelin thinks the game is over once passing 40 - no, it has just begun, now pelin will feel the combo power of duke with either celarius or eagle - good luck to counter that with pelin the slow tank will just be overturned in the 60s range.

Erissime

I believe the most tricky card in the Saint Pelin set that does indeed need a nerf is the nr5. It is a "game over" situation when that card comes in at early stages of the session, and being as cheap as all that ( I mean 5 gold!) whoever gets it, due to the small nr of cards in the deck in the first rounds, has a quick draw on it, and 2/3 of those plays makes the opponent loose regardless of their combos/play style, other means . Practically that is no game. Is just a stacking down the power to a win. So it needs a nerf - that one particular card. Either raise it's price ( for all it's worth not even Ansei which has more or less similar powers in play, except that you get to choose between gold and power, does not have such powerful cards!). If anything shape it over the Ansei, keep things interesting, otherwise is just a waste of time. I mean literally the game becomes futile once one of the players gets that one card on start. Not even the 4 from Saint Pelin is so hard to counter. Spread it in combos ( like the 4 from the Red Eagle), make it more expenssive, but seriously? Keep it interesting, cause I got bored literally during games in which that card was drawn from the beggining and I knew the outcome from the very first hands. Never wrong, the winner (be it npc or player, myself included) - that is an easy win. Simple. Easy = boring, and utterly uninteresting - for indeed whatever combos one may come up with towards the end, the immense advantage 5 raw power give upon start (which is almost never 5... usually it amounts to 10 or more due to the small deck issue/repetitiveness of the card) - is just impossible to overcome (and people are not stupid, neither the game is that hard to understand - only if one does some huge mistake chances are at hand to overcome that, and that is rare to never!)

Jaimeh

Lysette wrote: »

I think as well, that the game should stay just as it is. If we start the "balancing" crap here as well, I will give up on playing, not learning the game over and over and over again. not going to happen.

Decreasing a card's power, or increasing its cost doesn't change anything about the mechanics of the game, and in the case of Rally etc., it's definitely a good idea for not making games a mostly one-way street from the get-go.

Erissime

The rest of the Pelin deck, while indeed "hitting hard" is not so hard to counteract because the "heavy " cards are too expenssive to be achievable from the first hands, and as such by the time they are acquired, a deck has been built, and it may as well be coming into play, allowing strategies to overcome the raw power these cards provide. But 5 is just ... cheap and powerful, leading to what I said. But mind even 7 gives power of 6 (-1 of the card's value), and most of the ansei is like that ( their power is one less than the card nr. Same time patrons turning coin to power also give that -1 of the nr of coin, so I really don't get the meaning of 4 and 5 from the Pelin deck. Of which - yet again, 5 is the most futile and wrongly done. One strong card from the first hands (4) is enough to make things interesting, two... it ruins everything.

kevkj

Sarannah wrote: »

The game should NOT receive any changes. This would be extremely confusing to those still learning the game, including me, and would harm the integrity of the game.

Also: There need to be some straightforward cards like that, so players not familiar with the game can force an outcome if they are lucky with those cards.

PS: The only thing that needs to change is ZOS giving patrons a fixed position on the board. Having to search the right one every game is confusing, timewasting, and not fun. There are only 8 patrons, so this should not be too hard to do.

If you're still learning the game, then arguably any change wouldn't really hurt you. You're not even familiar with the game yet.

It would also be nice to have patrons be in a fixed position, but with the free form nature of patron selection I'm sure you realized that's not possible right?

MreeBiPolar

Arguably, Grand Larceny is even more broken for a starting card. If it goes in the tavern on turn 1, whoever gets it essentially wins the game because on turns 3-4, they have double the resources than the other player.

dmnqwk

When you look at the heart of each set, it's an interesting issue: (defined as a card costing 5 or less that can produce coin+power equal to the card cost)

Ansei Hunding: Conquest (cost 4) Choose 1: Grab a 4 of less card / 3 power. Combo 2: 2 power.
Duke of Crows: Scratch (cost 3) 1 Coin Combo 2: 2 coin 2 power. (if upgraded to Murder it's now 4 but adds Combo 3: Power 2
Grandmaster Delmen Hlaaru: It doesn't have one.
Psijic Loremaster Celarus: It doesn't have one.
Rajhin, the Purring Liar: Pounce and Profit (cost 5) 4 coin Combo 2: Knock out an agent. (when upgraded to Grand Larceny increases the play effect to 5 coin.
Red Eagle, King of the Reach: Midnight Raid (cost 4) 3 power Combo 2: 3 power
Sorcerer-King Orgnum: Serpentprow Schooner (cost 3) 2 power Combo 2 2 power (when upgraded to Pyandonean War Fleet the Combo 2: provides 3 power instead.

So looking at the list of the powerful mid-range cards you see:

Murder of Crows (4) Makes 7 coins+power (combo 3)
The Armory (5) Produces 6 (no combo)
Midnight Raid (4) makes 6 (combo 2)
Grand Larcery (5) makes 5 (no combo)
Conquest (4) makes 5 (combo 2)
Pyandonean War Fleet (3) makes 5 (combo 3)

Perhaps the major issue with St Pelin, that causes The Armory to be viewed as such a powerful card, is that there are actually too many coins in St Pelin that support the purchase of powerful cards while still creating a lot of power. This means if you play a hand of 5 cards - 3 coin, Siege Weapon Volley and Reinforcements - you're producing 6 power, but more importantly still producing 7 coins to buy a Rally if it shows up.
Reinforcements and Siege Weapon Volley offering the coins causes more of an issue that The Armory does, but it's easy to overlook them because the armory is a standalone card.

I think I'd like to see Reinforcements replaced with a St Pelin card that is a shield Agent with 1 strength that produces 1 power, combo 1 coin/1 power. I feel this would definitely balance the entire deck to the point it wouldn't be such a chosen deck.

Erissime

Very nice inputs and analyses, but it really is more simple than that. When Armory shows at the very beggining of the game ( when 5 coins is the top a player may have in hand, for no moves have been done, no writs of coin created, no cards withdrawn from the Tavern!) - and the second player always has +1 coin to start with, there WILL be 5 coins on the table to purchase that card. Period. Now imagine small decks, due to start, and imagine one player living on the 1/2 power generated by the base cards, maybe a lucky 3 top if they got another card in the meantime, almost no combos, and the lucky one slams +5 power at least twice during those first few hands. How do you counter that? And I will not say that alone is impossible to overcome in future stages of the game, but usually more Pelin cards get into the game, and while both players may get on a eaven ground as far as buildling the actual deck, those first moves have the power to decide the game itself.

On another point, as I read above Grand Larceny to be considered equally powerful - I disagree. Sure one may get the coin, but if they have nothing to do with it is kind of futile. I have played against players with huge amount of coin (sometimes as high as 20 or more, Hlaalu does that and not only!) - and always power wins.

On another note, it is a card game, in which luck has its tell as well. So I suppose we can live with it and just consider it a fact. If the dice rolls your way, be happy, if not, that's it. However it is a pity to see it degenerating into this when there should be strategy, ups and downs and unexpected twists and turns - all of which the game in itself promises and supports with every other combination of cards. But you know ... there's always that Armory at early stages...(later on if it appears it is not as dangerous by and by).

kevkj

@Erissime Well put, regarding the Armory problem. Others have mentioned this but I'm in favour of the nerf being the removal of the 1 gold from Armory, not a reduction of power/increase in gold cost. Without the gold, it would be a more meaningful choice to buy Armory. On Turn 3 when you potentially get Armory again, you will get a nice early power spike but it will slow down your early gold gain. As it is, Armory is a no-brainer as it doesn't affect your gold pool early too badly and yet 5 power is nice to have all the way up to endgame.

MindOfTheSwarm

Was literally going to write a new post on this. Yes, 100% agree that Saint Pelin cards are overpowered. They win games quickly whereas all other decks are about building up slow. The only counter is to also buy red cards when you get the chance but if you’re unlucky and your opponent gets all the reds, you are basically screwed as there is no way to catch up. With a deck that’s designed to win quickly there needs to be a way to stall them out and the orange cards don’t do it well enough. No one is saying nerf them into obsolescence but at the very least ‘The Armory’ and ‘Rally’ need a nerf. These two cards are basically automatic win.

I would nerf them as follows:

Armory: 4 Power that’s it.

Rally: 3 Power and draw card on combo 3 not 2.

Banneret: 2 Power but buff health by 1.

tatsukenji

I find that the hardest part about fighting Pelin is how expensive taunt-based agents are. Might not need to nerf it so much if Pelin's deck also had things like 5g for 5taunt agent. 7g for taunt agent or 6g for the contract agent is way too much

Hawkeye

Not being sarcastic but isn't this why we have the ability to chose our decks at the beginning? So we can pick ones that will counter what they do? I mean strategy has to come into play. I think it is more about learning strategies before we start crying nerf nerf! Personally if ZOS goes about changing the cards each patch I will stop playing as it takes away any actual thought I might put into how I want to counter other peoples style of play.
I hate to lose, but at the same time it makes me think about why I lost rather than how I Can get it nerfed to suit me winning every game. Why don't we just let it simmer a bit and see how people get on with their strategies. Way to early for card changes.

Sweetpea704

I agree that the St. Pelin deck is a bit too strong. If, by some bad luck of the draw the other player gets Rally and Armory, you almost want to just concede and move on.

Isteris

Hawkeye wrote: »

Not being sarcastic but isn't this why we have the ability to chose our decks at the beginning? So we can pick ones that will counter what they do? I mean strategy has to come into play. I think it is more about learning strategies before we start crying nerf nerf! Personally if ZOS goes about changing the cards each patch I will stop playing as it takes away any actual thought I might put into how I want to counter other peoples style of play.
I hate to lose, but at the same time it makes me think about why I lost rather than how I Can get it nerfed to suit me winning every game. Why don't we just let it simmer a bit and see how people get on with their strategies. Way to early for card changes.

I play a number of card games in Rl and I believe you need skill , strategy and quite a lot of luck in the turn. I would agree that it is way to early to be nerfing things and anyway this nerf culture is getting very old, how about instead of a nurf later down the road we get new decks that combat the identified problems giving the game a lot more legs in terms of keeping it current and interesting.

Erissime

Yes true, there is no need of an actual nerf - and most certainly not of the WHOLE Pelin deck. That is practically a no-brainer which may , or may not give someone an easy win. Pretty much depending on luck. But in the long run the most problematic card - which is only one of the entire deck, and which seems rather hard (to impossible) to counteract - is that one card - the allmighty Armory - and that ONLY in the eventuality of an early draw. Just as I wrote above. Beyond that - Pelin is a fine deck, and I agree that the whole "nerf nerf nerf" fashion needs to be tuned... down. Game is fine as is - perhaps one of the fairest I've ever encountered. And even this my complaint about said Armory is based on the somewhat slight dissapointment on the allowance of the "luck element" sort to speak, into what clearly seems a game of strategy and twists and turns. But once again - in the end, what are card-games if not a game of chance after all, despite all the strategies and brain-storming out there?

Foxtrot39

Hawkeye wrote: »

Not being sarcastic but isn't this why we have the ability to chose our decks at the beginning? So we can pick ones that will counter what they do? I mean strategy has to come into play. I think it is more about learning strategies before we start crying nerf nerf! Personally if ZOS goes about changing the cards each patch I will stop playing as it takes away any actual thought I might put into how I want to counter other peoples style of play.
I hate to lose, but at the same time it makes me think about why I lost rather than how I Can get it nerfed to suit me winning every game. Why don't we just let it simmer a bit and see how people get on with their strategies. Way to early for card changes.

This imply no deck are locked, to counter pelin you spam Rahjin's to flood the enemy deck with junk card and lower prestige, Rahjin's deck isn't a default one and tbh I won against that tactic because I bought 1 power card I could play while he could only spam more junk in my deck to bid some time, though since I did the same he couldn't counter me with the deck most suited to counter pelin

Currently the taunt card to counter pelin 2 I-win cards are to expensive and require you to sacrifice 2 power/turn to keep them active as they get removed by 1-2 card or a single armory/rally, and this is if you manage to buy them before the snowball has started

Beside since you can rarely use mentor twice per turn so you're always unable to keep them active since a single good turn can delete all of them, even worse if the psijic deck is present as it auto delete any agent for a low cost

Either remove the ridiculous upfront bonus and spread it as 2-3 combo and make it impossible for those 2 cards to ever appear during the first 6 turns where they way too much impact or buff taunt card HP so they don't get wrecked so easely even with trash tier power cards

Erissime

Spamming Rahjin just feels... low sorry. I mean I was in such like games, and they simply become ridiculous. One either counter-spams in turn - and thus both end with a bunch of trash, or you simply turn the bad cards into gold - that's just a futile time-wasting "strategy" (if those indulging into such actually consider that a strategy at all!). Also it doesn't solve the problem, I mean Rahjin spam is already old and the few I met with when faced with similar dropped it already cause it brings nothing really other than broken games. And no, is not the patron's fault, is the players. Give people something good and watch how they ruin it through abuse.

So yes, the problem of that card is the price - easily achieved at early stages, while anything potential of a balance is either too expensive or not good enough. Always talking about early stages. Everything else is just not a problem.

jaws343

Erissime wrote: »

Spamming Rahjin just feels... low sorry. I mean I was in such like games, and they simply become ridiculous. One either counter-spams in turn - and thus both end with a bunch of trash, or you simply turn the bad cards into gold - that's just a futile time-wasting "strategy" (if those indulging into such actually consider that a strategy at all!). Also it doesn't solve the problem, I mean Rahjin spam is already old and the few I met with when faced with similar dropped it already cause it brings nothing really other than broken games. And no, is not the patron's fault, is the players. Give people something good and watch how they ruin it through abuse.

So yes, the problem of that card is the price - easily achieved at early stages, while anything potential of a balance is either too expensive or not good enough. Always talking about early stages. Everything else is just not a problem.

I will start grabbing some Psijic cards if a player starts dropping the useless cards in my deck. Many of the psijic cards give two gold, and they also let me discard cards. So you can play them, look for the useless cards and discard them, get some gold, maybe even lineup your next hand in the process.