force of nature CP node

Wing

the 900 offensive pen per status effect on target.

can someone better then me at CP optimization tell me if this is worth anything?
is this better then a straight up 6% damage increase?

VadimAleks

Wing wrote: »

is this better then a straight up 6% damage increase?

No. 6% equals approximately 3000 penetration.

Wing

VadimAleks wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

is this better then a straight up 6% damage increase?

No. 6% equals approximately 3000 penetration.

so 3 status effects to be almost on par, 4 or more and its better.

MudcrabAttack

If it wasn’t broken, Force of nature is perhaps the best source of penetration you have available.

In PVE Penetration has a hard cap of 18200. If you’re in a group with someone running alkosh (6000), someone applying major/minor breach (8922), and infused crusher (2108), +700 from champion system, there’s no need for any more penetration since there’s already 17730

If nobody is using alkosh you -could- technically slot the Lover mundus for 4491 penetration, but you give up 10% crit rating from thief or something from some other mundus

When it comes to figuring out which source of penetration is most appealing, just compare it to the other things available

If you slot force of nature you give up one of the newest nerfed versions of the alternative CPs, maybe backstabber which only adds around 3.5% total damage to a build in need of more crit damage. Maybe biting aura which might only be adding 2% total damage for a build with little AOE to offer.

Force of nature could be adding up to 6 or 7 multiples of 900 in a trial, but It’s broken in groups last I heard. When some other source procs the same status effect on the same target, the force of nature count drops by one. Hopefully it gets fixed soon

For solo builds you can easily get around 4 stacks.

WrathOfInnos

Agreed, it's strong in theory, but not very reliable in the current state. Alkosh is a better option IMO.

Thecompton73

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

If it wasn’t broken, Force of nature is perhaps the best source of penetration you have available.

Penetration has a hard cap of 18200. If you’re in a group with someone running alkosh (6000), someone applying major/minor breach (8922), and infused crusher (2108), +700 from champion system, there’s no need for any more penetration since there’s already 17730

If nobody is using alkosh you -could- technically slot the Lover mundus for 4491 penetration, but you give up 10% crit rating from thief or something from some other mundus

When it comes to figuring out which source of penetration is most appealing, just compare it to the other things available

If you slot force of nature you give up one of the newest nerfed versions of the alternative CPs, maybe backstabber which only adds around 3.5% total damage to a build in need of more crit damage. Maybe biting aura which might only be adding 2% total damage for a build with little AOE to offer.

Force of nature could be adding up to 6 or 7 multiples of 900 in a trial, but It’s broken in groups last I heard. When some other source procs the same status effect on the same target, the force of nature count drops by one. Hopefully it gets fixed soon

For solo builds you can easily get around 4 stacks.

This is misinformation. There is no cap at all on penetration. You make it sound like above that number the game won't apply the effects. And while it's certainly true that PvE ads and bosses top out at 18200 of each resistance in PvP the majority of players are running around with 24-30K physical and spell resistance. When I'm wearing Balorgh's and I use an ultimate after building the meter to a full 500 the extra penetration it gives brings me up to nearly 27K and it makes a huge difference against tankier builds (which are pretty much the norm for PvP in this meta).

MudcrabAttack

Thecompton73 wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

If it wasn’t broken, Force of nature is perhaps the best source of penetration you have available.

Penetration has a hard cap of 18200. If you’re in a group with someone running alkosh (6000), someone applying major/minor breach (8922), and infused crusher (2108), +700 from champion system, there’s no need for any more penetration since there’s already 17730

If nobody is using alkosh you -could- technically slot the Lover mundus for 4491 penetration, but you give up 10% crit rating from thief or something from some other mundus

When it comes to figuring out which source of penetration is most appealing, just compare it to the other things available

If you slot force of nature you give up one of the newest nerfed versions of the alternative CPs, maybe backstabber which only adds around 3.5% total damage to a build in need of more crit damage. Maybe biting aura which might only be adding 2% total damage for a build with little AOE to offer.

Force of nature could be adding up to 6 or 7 multiples of 900 in a trial, but It’s broken in groups last I heard. When some other source procs the same status effect on the same target, the force of nature count drops by one. Hopefully it gets fixed soon

For solo builds you can easily get around 4 stacks.

This is misinformation. There is no cap at all on penetration. You make it sound like above that number the game won't apply the effects. And while it's certainly true that PvE ads and bosses top out at 18200 of each resistance in PvP the majority of players are running around with 24-30K physical and spell resistance. When I'm wearing Balorgh's and I use an ultimate after building the meter to a full 500 the extra penetration it gives brings me up to nearly 27K and it makes a huge difference against tankier builds (which are pretty much the norm for PvP in this meta).

Meant PVE

Wing

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

If it wasn’t broken, Force of nature is perhaps the best source of penetration you have available.

Penetration has a hard cap of 18200. If you’re in a group with someone running alkosh (6000), someone applying major/minor breach (8922), and infused crusher (2108), +700 from champion system, there’s no need for any more penetration since there’s already 17730

If nobody is using alkosh you -could- technically slot the Lover mundus for 4491 penetration, but you give up 10% crit rating from thief or something from some other mundus

When it comes to figuring out which source of penetration is most appealing, just compare it to the other things available

If you slot force of nature you give up one of the newest nerfed versions of the alternative CPs, maybe backstabber which only adds around 3.5% total damage to a build in need of more crit damage. Maybe biting aura which might only be adding 2% total damage for a build with little AOE to offer.

Force of nature could be adding up to 6 or 7 multiples of 900 in a trial, but It’s broken in groups last I heard. When some other source procs the same status effect on the same target, the force of nature count drops by one. Hopefully it gets fixed soon

For solo builds you can easily get around 4 stacks.

This is misinformation. There is no cap at all on penetration. You make it sound like above that number the game won't apply the effects. And while it's certainly true that PvE ads and bosses top out at 18200 of each resistance in PvP the majority of players are running around with 24-30K physical and spell resistance. When I'm wearing Balorgh's and I use an ultimate after building the meter to a full 500 the extra penetration it gives brings me up to nearly 27K and it makes a huge difference against tankier builds (which are pretty much the norm for PvP in this meta).

Meant PVE

its good i got what you meant ^_^

Necrotech_Master

i could see this being potent in pvp, especially since less people are running purges with plaguebreak being an effective anti-purge set

i could also possibly see it being used more on stam builds, that have a much harder time getting penetration as you usually have to make concessions with your weapon (either using sharpened trait or using mace/maul)

dmg optimization wise i think most use daggers with crit chance, but doing so with medium armor leaves you with less than 1000 penetration (700 passive from cp)

overall i definitely see this cp being more useful in a pvp setting, much higher resists, much higher chance to be under large quantity of effects

virtus753

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

If it wasn’t broken, Force of nature is perhaps the best source of penetration you have available.

In PVE Penetration has a hard cap of 18200. If you’re in a group with someone running alkosh (6000), someone applying major/minor breach (8922), and infused crusher (2108), +700 from champion system, there’s no need for any more penetration since there’s already 17730

If nobody is using alkosh you -could- technically slot the Lover mundus for 4491 penetration, but you give up 10% crit rating from thief or something from some other mundus

When it comes to figuring out which source of penetration is most appealing, just compare it to the other things available

If you slot force of nature you give up one of the newest nerfed versions of the alternative CPs, maybe backstabber which only adds around 3.5% total damage to a build in need of more crit damage. Maybe biting aura which might only be adding 2% total damage for a build with little AOE to offer.

Force of nature could be adding up to 6 or 7 multiples of 900 in a trial, but It’s broken in groups last I heard. When some other source procs the same status effect on the same target, the force of nature count drops by one. Hopefully it gets fixed soon

For solo builds you can easily get around 4 stacks.

How are people tracking this in real time? I mean to test whether things like whether that reported bug is fixed yet and whether Sundered and Overcharged count as 4-second status effects or just for the instant they do their damage.

The pen doesn't show up on your character stat sheet or in add-ons like Combat Metrics (yet).

MindOfTheSwarm

Wing wrote: »

the 900 offensive pen per status effect on target.

can someone better then me at CP optimization tell me if this is worth anything?
is this better then a straight up 6% damage increase?

The idea behind is to obviously stack status effects. Might be better if it was 1% more damage dealt per status effect on target. But that might be op and become meta as a result.

Alternatively, it might better to simply directly boost the damage of Status Effects up to 50%, 10% per stage. Would need to be that high to be worthwhile since most players are only applying one or maybe 2 status effects, but for players that specialise in applying as many status effects as possible, such a node would have great value and open up a different kind of play style. However, 50% boosts poses a glaring issue which is Burning. However, Burning could be independently tuned down a little to make up for such a node. The other status effect damage would have to remain the same.

Zodiarkslayer

The effectiveness of thic cp node is held back mostly by ones own capabilities to reliably apply more than one status effect at a time.
So the amount of penetration that can be stacked up, is rather limited.

And than, even in coordinated trial groups (as an extreme example), it doesn't make sense to go out of the way to use more than chilled, burned and poisoned. Which would only add up to 2700 penetration.

A sensible rework of that CP node could be to just use the application of any status effect to apply a new unique debuff directly to the enemy, rather than buffing oneself.

I think, in that case 2500 to 3000 penetration would be ideal. Not too high to make Crimson Oath or Alkosh obsolete, but be able to close the gap between light armor and medium armor a bit.
Besides, that would make it useful for a lot of Solo scenarios.

MindOfTheSwarm

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

The effectiveness of thic cp node is held back mostly by ones own capabilities to reliably apply more than one status effect at a time.
So the amount of penetration that can be stacked up, is rather limited.

And than, even in coordinated trial groups (as an extreme example), it doesn't make sense to go out of the way to use more than chilled, burned and poisoned. Which would only add up to 2700 penetration.

A sensible rework of that CP node could be to just use the application of any status effect to apply a new unique debuff directly to the enemy, rather than buffing oneself.

I think, in that case 2500 to 3000 penetration would be ideal. Not too high to make Crimson Oath or Alkosh obsolete, but be able to close the gap between light armor and medium armor a bit.
Besides, that would make it useful for a lot of Solo scenarios.

I don't know why people fuss over Penetration between Light and Medium. Medium gets Weapon and Spells Damage plus Critical Damage. You need to find your Pen from elsewhere just as Light Armor toons need to find their Weapon and Spell Damage from elsewhere.

Zodiarkslayer

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

...You need to find your Pen from elsewhere just as Light Armor toons need to find their Weapon and Spell Damage from elsewhere...

That only balances out in theory. Major/Minor Breach + CP passive+/ 7 pieces of Light Armor is already at 16195 penetration. That leaves a meager 2005 armor for your enemy. That is less than a Crusher glyph, Which most Tanks will be running anyways. As a result a Light armor build practically has absolute build freedom.

Experience shows, that Medium Armor builds have to go to greater lenghts by comparison to get to that 18200 mark. Stam groups effectively have to run Crimson Oath Rive, Alkosh or Tremorsale (Mostly the Tank). Or insist on a certain number of Penetration Lines or pieces of light armor worn, which seriously limits the build freedom and group compositions, limiting group damage. Which is bad. And frustrating.

Or in other terms: the cost of opportunity is much higher on the Medium Armor side of things. Disproportionately higher.