What if they removed classes entirely and just left the skill trees?

Tornaad

I don't know what I think about the idea. Part of me would like it, because of the extra options we would get, but part of me is unsure because of how big the change would have to be.
It seems like it might become easier to introduce a new class because then they just add the new tree, but at the same time I still don't know how I would feel about it.
This was just a random idea that keeps popping in my head that I wanted to share to get it to stop coming up.

Arthtur

No

After pushing hybrisation damage and healing(PvP) went through the roof. Guess what will happen when ppl will be able to pick 3 strong skill lines...

omnidoh

Yes

As a player in games where "Class" was irrelevant and only "Role" mattered, such a change would reflect the original spirit and history of the Elder Scrolls Genre.

The challenge however would be Skill-Balance; what skills a character could have and how they would interact, how to prevent the obvious META/OP choices from dominating the playing field, etc...

Invariably, there is and always will be a "Most Optimal" for just about everything. Game Theory has only proven this both in fantasy and within the real world. What players want is the agency to enjoy their experience without being compelled or forced to adopt a method or style that they personally have an aversion to.

The flip side is homogeneity, which results in "Play however you want, your uniqueness and personal effort are irrelevant.".
Humans will naturally seek the most optimal methods within a given system, and Class / Roles are the last bastion of artificially enforced limits. But even here in ESO, any class can do any role anyway, and any single character can master everything essential to enjoying the game. "Class" distinction is still ultimately meaningless where end-game results are concerned, being separated only by small conveniences that can be stacked to maximum effect in PVP or group settings.

This is nothing new, and has been the age-old problem with system dynamics, but as for myself, I'd much prefer the option to mix-n-match if given the choice.

phaneub17_ESO

No

We're already pretty close to the point where everyone is using the same skills everywhere else beyond non-class skills, opening it all up to everyone would push diversity out the window and into the trash heap.

Aislinna

Yes

A previous game I played was like that. There were 12 available skill lines and you picked 3, resulting in a possible 220 classes. It allowed lots of variety, but ultimately there were still meta classes for each role that most players gravitated to because they worked the best. The skill lines were more role defined then how ESO has them, i.e., for a DPS to have self-heals they had to take the healing skill line instead of a DPS support skill line and thus they lost some combo abilities.

I really did like that once I had the skill line leveled, I could switch roles/classes on the same character on the fly (yes, with a gold cost), but it was very convenient.

Artim_X

No

Variety is the spice of life. The irony of letting people dip from all the skill lines without any class restrictions, is that everyone ends up playing the same best in slot/flavor of the month build for whatever content they are doing.

Amottica

No

There would be one build for everything pretty much. The small amount of class diversity we have would be lost and the game would become bland, and boring.

Tornaad

Not sure

Aislinna wrote: »

A previous game I played was like that. There were 12 available skill lines and you picked 3, resulting in a possible 220 classes. It allowed lots of variety, but ultimately there were still meta classes for each role that most players gravitated to because they worked the best. The skill lines were more role defined then how ESO has them, i.e., for a DPS to have self-heals they had to take the healing skill line instead of a DPS support skill line and thus they lost some combo abilities.

I really did like that once I had the skill line leveled, I could switch roles/classes on the same character on the fly (yes, with a gold cost), but it was very convenient.

I think I would love that idea. And with 18 skill lines available from classes, that would make for a huge number of possible classes. Yes, you would certainly have minmaxers (they will always be there) but the variety it would add would be awesome.

Browiseth

Not sure

maybe if the game had been originally designed as a class-less game yeah. as is they are such a core part of the game i dont think you could remove them

its pretty interesting to imagine a very different eso though

Dojohoda

DragonBladePlars? CrowSorcDens?

Danikat

Not sure

I like the idea for myself, as some other people said it would make it more like previous Elder Scrolls games where classes were really just pre-made sets of skills and attributes and you could make any combination you wanted. I'm absolutely certain I wouldn't just pick whatever was considered the best/strongest because I don't do that in games which do offer this option. In Morrowind for example I played a khajiit focused on short blades, destruction and restoration magic, light armour, athletics and sneak, so my attributes were all over the place and I wasn't that great at anything, but it was fun. (And that was the improved version, originally I was using long blades and medium armour which was even worse, especially since everything in unmodded Morrowind is absurdly heavy.)

But I'd unsure how it would impact the game as a whole. When I stopped playing Ultima Online (which had a very similar skill system but much stronger emphasis on role-playing and less obvious 'best' choices) there was already an emerging trend of 'everyone' using certain skills. I've seen the same thing in other games, Pokemon for example offers players literally thousands of possible combinations for a team but you still get tournaments, even fairly casual informal ones where a large percentage are using the same Pokemon with the same moves, because someone has decided those are the best.

(Of course the other question is whether that's actually a bad thing, and whether it's really any different to what already happens in ESO with groups insisting on certain classes or builds for certain roles.)

So yeah, I don't know. I know I'd have fun with using that system to come up with themes and trying out odd combinations of skill lines, but I'm not sure what the impact on the game as a whole would be or how that might affect my enjoyment.

Sjestenka

No

Dunno, i like classes. If only they were closer to classic TES games?.. Acrobat. Yes please. Witchhunter. Hoo hoo. Barbarian. M-hm. Pilgrim. You know, stuff that makes more sense in the given universe than say, Dragon Knight.

Gundug

Yes

Assuming all of the non-triggered passives from every skill line would be active all the time, characters would experience a pretty steep leap in power. All the characters in a group setting could potentially provide the same buffs to the group as well, rather than certain classes bringing their own unique ones, which I think is a change that would be negative.

Assuming the same number of maximum skill points that are currently available, that would put a pretty hard limit on most players coming close to maximizing their characters. I tend to disagree that the suggested change would necessarily lead to one specification for every player, although unimaginative and uncreative players will always copy what they are told to be the best. I think there are enough different combinations of skills with gear to make many viable and strong setups in significantly different ways.

One positive result of the change would be the end of players whining about their perception of a particular class being either too far ahead or behind the others. Complaints about specific skill lines will never end, however. There might be an economic advantage to the developers, since certain classes are Crown store offerings, any players who do not own those classes would be at a power and skill line disadvantage. On the negative side of this, the Crown classes would become a clear pay to win system, particularly if newer class lines should be added over time.

While I personally like the idea, since it would benefit my personal play style greatly, there are a number of glaring negatives to consider, and I frankly don’t think it viable.

SammyKhajit

Not sure

If only we can have class change tokens….

Ermiq

No

The entire class/skillline system in the game would have to be overhauled and basically recreated from scratch.
Otherwise, there's no doubt, it will just lead to the greatest balance disaster ESO ever had.
There's another option though: to prevent the balance apocalypse, every skilline could be turned into a copy of any other one but with different visual effects. We already have many skills made like that, and classes are much more generalized and interchangeable then they used to be. I definitely not a fan of that, but I understand why ZOS have to do this: everyone wants their class to be as good in any situation as any other class, and the generalization/equalization is the only way to go in the current class/skilline system.

jaws343

No

Do you want cloaking sorcs? Because this is how you get cloaking sorcs.

I can already tell you, a change like this would likely lead to most players going down the Shadow Skills (Nightblade), Storm Calling (Sorc), and Restoring Light (Templar) skill lines. Streak + Cloak + Extended Ritual + BoL, and then insert in some weapon line and guild skills. Pretty much a nightmarish build imo.

BloodyStigmata

No

omnidoh wrote: »

such a change would reflect the original spirit and history of the Elder Scrolls Genre.

Yeah I remember when they removed classes entirely in Skyrim despite the fact that they were in the first four games.

Removing stuff that facilitates role-playing in this... uh, what was it, oh yeah, role-playing game is certainly within the spirit of new Elder Scrolls.

Aardappelboom

Yes

I always liked the idea of not having classes and only having skill lines with the freedom of building your character freely.

As it is now however, some skill lines are too specific to be pulled out of their class context.

While it will never happen and it might not be the best way forward for ESO as it is now. I voted yes because it would have been great if it was designed like this from the start, with the current system where only 5 skills per bar can be active it would have made for some interesting builds but obviously at the cost of balance.

Tommy_The_Gun

No

Potential conversion from the future:
A: What is that ?!
B: What is what ? I Don't see anything.
A: The thing that stuns me, but there is nothing there.
B: Oh, that. It is probably invisible player streaking through you. They made it possible when they removed classes & left only skill lines. So many players use Streak & Cloak combo. You can't do nothing about it as they can streak away & you don't see them.

Rex-Umbra

Yes

Necro/NB hybrid yes please

Mushroomancer

No

Oh boy, here comes "No-Class ESO post no.759".

No, we don't need something like this in ESO. It would have worked if the game had been built for it from the start, but as it stands, the fact that you have three predefined skill lines is pretty much the only thing keeping everyone from using the exact same build and skill bar setup.
And I also don't understand the logic of those that think something like this would free up the theorycrafting and allow for more diverse character builds. It won't. If anything, it would be even worse, because everyone and their mothers would just pick the three best skill lines for each role and go to town. And that's considering the three skill line limit that most of these posts still mention wanting to keep.
And no, it wouldn't make a new class easier to implement, it would probably make that harder, considering they'd have to consider how it would play in tandem with and against every other class skill line in the game, rather than just in combination with other two skill lines and then against everything else. Alternatively, a new class in this hypothetical no-class limit ESO would just be the blandest thing ever as a way to avoid making it a headache to balance. So in any event, no.

Heartrage

No

Removing classes would cause the meta to get even more limited by making the best spell for a specific task the only viable spell for that task for every characters instead of only the class specific’s characters. Instead, I would have want Zos to make the classes even more unique and add more class-specific or class oriented sets to differentiate them even more.

Browiseth

Not sure

BloodyStigmata wrote: »

omnidoh wrote: »

such a change would reflect the original spirit and history of the Elder Scrolls Genre.

Yeah I remember when they removed classes entirely in Skyrim despite the fact that they were in the first four games.

Removing stuff that facilitates role-playing in this... uh, what was it, oh yeah, role-playing game is certainly within the spirit of new Elder Scrolls.

i would actually argue that, skyrim only removed classes if you only view it on a surface level. the actual process of playing the game, deciding what skills you like and levelling them and investing in your perks ends up essentially being a long-form class selection

eso actually finds a great middle ground. you start the game having chosen a general template and theme for your character, and you're given a lot of freedom in the non-class skill lines to decide your role and combat speciality as you play.

but yea i understand your point. lots of people have only played skyrim and seem to have the inherent assumption that every other game must be exactly like it

Mr_Stach

No

Let's look at this a different way, Classes exist because it's easier to Balance Classes, since their entire kit is in a bubble. Remove that bubble and it will be much harder to Balance, probably impossible.

Zos already has a hard time balancing the Classes as is. Removing the Barrier between classes will only lead to even more drastic sledgehammer balance passes.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

No

Balance would become impossible, build diversity would cease to exist. Classes exist for a good reason.

Lysette

Yes

I would be in favor of it - such a system is in EVE online, where there are no classes and no levels, just skills to be learned within more than a quarter century - you basically select what you want to learn and acquire the skill over time, regardless if online or not. Very convenient for casual players, because they are not at a disadvantage due to their limited play time.

I doubt though, that this is possible in ESO - it is so incredibly different to the current design, that it wouldn't make much sense to implement it.

Mesite

No

In another post I suggested they remove one of the classes, but I wasn't serious. They removed individual achievements and the community is still reeling. Imagine if all your toons you spent years developing suddenly had no classes. The forums will be very busy.

ResidentContrarian

No

Everyone would just build with no drawbacks.

Already possible on live due to OP mythics they won't nerf, OP arena items, OP sets, races clearly better than others, etc.

But don't worry, next patch there will be even more OP mythics to remove even more drawbacks in the name of "progression" "accessibility" or whatever excuse is found to keep something massively better than all other options.

Truthfully, the balance argument has no merit when the entire game isn't balanced.

Then again, some balance still might be better than none. Imagine someone using javelin and tossing you into mines and mages rune, with proc sets to make sure the sequence can't be countered (already true on live, but at least you need a super build and two people to do it). The forums will explode over it.

There'd be plenty of cheese to take advantage of in PvP, but some may find that better considering balance is not much better on live. I understand the counter-position.

Edit: clarity

Vaoh

Not sure

Classes are necessary imo.I would love the idea of being able to change classes though.

We can already change anything else about our character so may as well.

emilyhyoyeon

No

Sjestenka wrote: »

Dunno, i like classes. If only they were closer to classic TES games?.. Acrobat. Yes please. Witchhunter. Hoo hoo. Barbarian. M-hm. Pilgrim. You know, stuff that makes more sense in the given universe than say, Dragon Knight.

yeah I feel similarly. Also, if we had no classes, then I would want way more diverse skills/spells, like frost and fire atronach ults instead of just shock and flesh, for example.

DagenHawk

No

It wouldn't be a Elder Scrolls game then.